HOW can our husband "disagree with so much of MB"?

Dr. Harley has been doing his program successfully for over 20 years, after another 15 years before that of observing what didn't work in the programs he had learned, of other counselors, and in clinics where he had worked.

His book, His Needs, Her Needs, sold 1,000,000 copies by word of mouth, never hitting any best seller list, over a period of 20 years.

I disagree with some of the ways Bill Gates ran Microsoft, but I don't say that it doesn't work, or that Gates was wrong, because he obviously is a success by making his customers happy. So is Willard Harley.

I hear you. I just wanted to add that there's probably a lot to be learned by spending less time examining our spouses than ourselves. Sometimes I think we have to relinquish some things and focus on what we can change and do have control over.

There was a "Jay" who came here years ago. Jay really got me over a hump. I'm not sure if he's still lurking around, but if he is - Jay - thanks. I was really having some issues about even taking a tiny peek at dhs' love busters because I knew the list would be from here to Timbuktu. I knew I'd never get it perfect - never get it right. Then Jay suggested something important..."Maybe you can only do what you can reasonably do and should let the rest go." Basically, he was telling me I'm only human. I'm not Wonder Woman. Maybe it was time to relinquish this ideal I had of myself and what I was capable or incapable of changing.

I think sometimes we put such incredible pressure on ourselves to be all that our spouses want and need, and certainly we should try to eliminate all those top LBs and fulfill those top ENs if at all possible. But let's take this one farther and deal with another reality...perhaps our spouses are expecting too much. Perhaps they were over indulged...spoiled as children...catered to...and their reality is what to most people would be something more akin to a good novel or a (dare I say?) fantasy. And yes, I do know that sounds like a DJ. (Sorry)

I think that's what I'm dealing with. Someone who had no sisters and no little children to grow up around, was a bit overindulged by his mother and not given enough attention from his father. Now, don't get me wrong. I love him regardless. And believe you me, he'd have his own interesting analyzed version of me. But...after 21 years of marriage and having dealt with what all I've dealt with, well...let's just say that with age and adversity - comes clarity. Doesn't mean I regret anything I've chosen to do. It just means "I can see clearly now the rain is gone."

That doesn't give us license to give up. It just gives us reasonableness, and balance. It helps us deal with capricious, arbitrary people and do what we can do (being honest in our reasonable efforts) and learn to let the rest go.

I think there's this black hole we can fall into when we give up before we've even started. Or we give up prematurely because the styles of communication we chose to use didn't work.

So...short story long...maybe we should just do what we know we are capable of doing here - to a level that we no longer feel any regret or concern in our efforts. Let's try to examine LBs today, especially SDs for now, for today, and ask ourselves what our style is when it comes to asking for things and how that style shines or sucks. Excuse my French. How it works or doesn't, and try to follow Dr.H's guidelines for changing it. Sometimes we just have to trust - to stop asking questions - stop being problematic - and trust that it works. Nothing ventured, nothing gained and all that.

You have heard Dr. Phil ask a guest on his show what their style of communication is, and he'll fling back, "And...howz that workin for ye?" Well...

We can keep communicating like we're used to with nothing gained, or we can venture using another style and just see.

No contract. No lease. No formal papers to sign. Just a chance that Dr. H could be right. Nothing lost.

My dh doesn't follow MB concepts, but the other day he POJA'd without knowing it. LOL We were laying in bed and he said "How would you feel about driving me to work today?" I stayed there in silence, hardly believing my ears, and tentatively said, "I don't see a problem with that."

So...maybe there is hope. Even if it's just one person's influence on another. I plan on trying this more often, trying to POJA properly - even if it's one sided - to see how it goes. I hope others will try it too. Maybe we can discuss it here afterwards to help each other along, give each other ideas on how to tweak it where necessary? Think about it.

Retread...I think sometimes certain personality types just take real issue with acknowledging that they aren't doing something right. They don't like someone else telling them they're running their life/marriage wrong. It could be that they don't realize, too, just how unhappy their spouse really is. They haven't caught on to how their behavior has affected the marriage.

Another suggestion I would encourage is when your spouse does acknowledge something nice you've done from your end, use that opportunity to tell them that this or that could be twice as good if they would join you. Choose your words carefully. You wouldn't want it to sound like they're slackers, but give them a visual of something good being twice as good as it presently is if they participated. It's worth a shot.

well I was out thinking...trying to eat lunch....I simply can't eat much these days....I kept thinking about other things he said.

He used another analogy about a gambler....said what if a couple gets married and the H is a gambler it's his JOB a professional gambler....at first while he is winning the wife is fine with his job but when he stops winning and loosing lot's of money she suddenly isn't happy anymore....so what is he supposed to do? Give up his job now?

My H was really pressing me last night with all these kinds of made up serinarios....I said well if they are in debt over his gambling job it is no longer a viable source of income and not meeting the families need for FS and is also turning into a LB by the H's refusal to stop gambling and get a different job to support the family.....along with all the debt incurred from the gambling. He didn't like my answer cause I said the H should look into another line of work....I said just cause you start in one profession doesn't mean it's in stone and unchangable.....the H in that case would have to choose between a gambling career (which is not supporting the family) or his marriage/family.....I said he should choose his marriage not the gambling....again this went over like a turd in a swimming pool. He used this one right after the height one I posted earlier....he saw he was not making sense at some point on the height one and thougt he HAD me with this gambler one...I never felt had just attacked...like he was hoping to yell GOT YA!

Soolee I agree I suspect my H doesn't like the idea of anyone pointing out what he is doing wrong....and these books zero in on that....there's no way around it with this program. And I don't think he understands how deeply his actions are hurting my love for him....I am stuck cause that requires me to be O&H but he feels if I am O&H and say your actions or inactions are causing me to fall out of love with you that I am committing a LB for him....there is noway to communicate on this set up he wants.

Gem, LovingAnyway recommends a book a lot around here, it's Boundaries by Townsend & someone else (you can find it by looking up Townsend).

I read it on LA's advice, and it's a great book. I would recommend that you find a copy somewhere and read it ASAP. I don't believe anything in it violates the core components of MB, and it shows clearly how boundaries are about YOU and doing the things YOU are responsible for in protecting YOURSELF... and how the other person chooses to respond are THEIRS to deal with.

gem - I think you need to stop engaging in these conversations with your husband. Tell him you're not going to discuss hypothetical, you're only going to discuss issues in YOUR marriage.

He's trying to poke holes in the MB system so he doesn't have to use it. I'd stick to the line "I am not happy with the way this marriage is, and this is the best system I've found to fix it."

When he starts going there, just stop - because he will be able to think of endless scenarios to keep you from making progress and none of them have a thing to do with you.

You're not interested in a marriage program to save the marriage of the friends who's wife has a weight problem. Your interested in a marriage program that will fix your marriage.

All - I've enjoyed reading the discussion on the last few chapters. I had a big work deadline and so I haven't yet had a chance to read them, hoping to catch up this weekend.

Soolee, I like your explaniations and advice.

Lou

Stop engaging in hypothetical discussions where the motive is to NOT find a solution to a real problem.

Divert the hypothetical into a real situation. Just ask your husband to give you a real example of a problem, and then ask him to apply MB principles to it. If he can't ask him to apply his favorite principles to achieving the SOLUTION that he wants. Once you know what he wants, you can apply MB principles to solving it. You can tell him how that would work. Don't argue about it. Just do it. The object is to get him on board. Use the MB jargon.

Thanks AntiChick....almost bought that book a few weeks ago! I'll go back and get it tomorrow and see if it can help me start setting up those boundaries...I need that and I need to be clear on it.

Vibrissa....yes I had come to that conculsion about 1hr ago....NO MORE made up marriages and so on....we will only talk about our marriage from now on...I will not engage in this nonsense any longer....there is a new boundary I just put in place....I will be sharing this with him tonight....our focus must be on our marriage and all these rabbit trails are just his way of avoiding the real topics.

I think your saying what Vibrissa is saying and I won't allow that anymore BUT are you saying it's okay for him to use other peoples marriages then? I really want to stick to ours to be honest and not go down any of those rabbit trails. I can ask him to apply the MB principals but Retread he doesn't buy them....the next chp 3 in the book talks about the POJA and DJ's OMGoodness he doesn't agree with the POJA either! Says it still makes someone loose out on what they want.....no different than the giver taker in marriage....heck he 1st suggested we just keep doing the giver taker and I said NO to that....it has destroyed our marriage by doing that....he's a big taker and I have been sacrificing therefore I have built up deep resentments and all his IB has depleted my LB account.

What if (because I'm addicted to what if's):

Your H is actually participating in the MB concepts by asking you these questions...not for you to solve or answer--for you to admire/appreciate his participation?

What if...he does this with everything in his head, all the time (without including you)...and this is his act of O&H, participating in PORH...and meeting your EN for conversation, attention?



What if...he's letting you in on his stuff...how he drives himself crazy...and you aren't seeing it as his stuff?

Some answers to his questions..."I have always loved how analytical you are. I really hope you'll share the answer with me to your question when you get it."

"I admire your constant creativity. I like how you share with me, take me on the journey with you."

Everyone (that includes you, gemstone) is correct about the height and MS questions...and I think, the gambling one is answered just as you did...with more "Man, that would be really difficult, I think, for the H to choose another profession. What do you think?"

I think you guys have an issue between you...and it's not to be solved, but understood. Fixing, deciding, patting down answers to hypotheticals keeps the dance about what if's...which you now know I'm an addict of...

instead of just the marriage...

so bringing that around, through statements (touches of affection) of appreciation, admiration, connection...

and not being afraid of saying, "DH, I keep hearing you don't think MB will work and won't try to have UA time each week, do not like PORH or the rule of care...that you see them as damaging to you in ways I can't understand but I believe are valid. So I'm really behind your enthusiasm here, your desire to get with a great marriage program out there, and for you to find what really excites you...I'll be on board, 'k? I really do want to save our marriage."

Gem, you know your H deals with his life experience through distractions...work, recreational...it's all about dancing as fast as you can...so be prepared, prepare yourself, to understand a new depth of fear, pain and anxiety that he constantly feels...because if you really get what you truly wish for...

it will hurt a whole lot more than you can imagine...and it won't be forever. Might feel like it. So know that his resistance, wanting to shoot down, only do a sure thing, isn't coming to deny YOU...but to protect him from more pain.

Worth his participation...appreciate (not disproportionately), admire, acknowledge and accept this is really him participating...

and you're meeting some of his ENs, too, by doing this, I think.

Thing is about LBs...we discover what they are, when we feel them...and report them. So we start with the biggest and work our way down...not able to change them over night...so how we work through some LB times...and use it to catch our own DJs (he's going to shoot down every idea, doesn't want the marriage, is out to sabotage everything) so we really see what's pulling us down, where we despair and separate it from the enormity of the original LB withdrawals.

Not saying to fix...offering to know...to understand...see differently. Doesn't change the outcome, definitely changes the result.

LA

Lou - Thanks for that. I'm glad I'm making sense to someone. lol

Soolee, you are posting good examples that sound like they really work. I am on board with many of the MB ideas but implementing them is the difficult part. (one sided, W not willing to read any R books)

A few of the Principles of MB fly in the face of other programs that promote equality in R's but also state the differences between male and female biological dynamics.

I know I should eliminate some LB no matter what, but some LB to my W are work and financial related and areas where we are completely different and if she wants me to be in charge of paying for almost everything, her plan doesn't work or bring in much income.

The simple solution I should lead the life of a non-sexual gigolo/man servant to her but have a dentist's income.

Aside from my situation, I do appreciate this thread and what you and the others with solutions bring to it.

Lou

He doesn't agree with the POJA because
A. He doesn't understand it. Dr. Harley addresses the misunderstanding that it result in deadlock, of doing nothing, or a compromise that will please neither spouse.

B. He is in a State of Conflict, and sees everything as a win-lose, zero-sum game. This is an attitude problem, that will come to him only after the starts acting and seeing results.

Ask him if he has a better system of negotiating thing to mutual benefit than the POJA does. Mutual benefit, not independent behavior, not controlling behavior. If he comes up with something, say, "Okay, let's try that and see what we come up with. Then let's try POJA and see what we come up with." Or hold off on the POJA until his method doesn't work to your mutual benefit. You don't have to put it into action to see if it works. If it is not going to work, you will both know before you get up from the table.

My wife is not on board with MB. I have not brought it up again since I started posting here, two years ago. I just practice it. I don't engage in independent behavior, and I force her to join in decision making. I tell her, "No, I am not going to do whatever I feel like because you say you don't care. We are operating under the Policy of Joint Agreement." Then I sit with her and lay out the situation, ask what she would like in an ideal world, negotiate, and we agree on it. She likes the outcome, but she is not yet initiating the negotiation.

So...I just wanted to report something, hoping it will inspire:

I POJA'd an issue with my husband tonight, and it went like this:

Me: "How do you feel about fixing the kitchen chair tonight?"

DH: "The one that's loose? I have to figure out how to get that peg out so I can screw it together." (Sounding like this was why there was a delay for so long - years, folks)

Me: How about we just use the wood glue on it for now with some clamps?

DH: "I'm not sure it'll hold..."

Me: "Could we just try it so that it's fixed temporarily?"

DH: Nods his head, yes.

Sure enough, he went out tothe garage, got the glue and clamps with some carpet pieces to protect the chair from the clamps,and it's drying as I type.

Now...I played it safe. I asked for something I knew very well I could do myself because I was afraid of being frustrated and disappointed as usual if it didn't get done.

So...I'm not sure if it got done because of the POJA or because it was an easier task, but I'm encouraged and will go show my appreciation now by making him a drink or a snack and thanking him.

Whaddaya know, poor little helpless me got her man to fix that big ole chair. Just kidding! You did well. It worked, too.

Here's where a lot of women do it wrong, making it come off as a Selfish Demand:
1. Start of with the tone of, "I know you won't do this, but..."

2. Harsh start up with how you have waited long enough, so, "Are you going to fix it or not?"

3. Ask when it is impossible to do right then, assuring that he will forget about it, after you make him mad.
.. in the car on the way to dinner
.. in bed, just before he dozes off
.. while he is doing something else for you

I've been guilty of all of the above!

Ack.

To my credit, I'm MUCH better about it now. I really try to start with the "what would you think about..."

My timing could still use some improvement though. As could my guard, which goes right up if his response is anything less than nice. (like when I pick those terrible times to ask, then get offended when he gets offended)

lol - morning all. Yeah, that was the tiniest thing on my list. It was more of an experiment really, but I hope it was done respectfully. I believe it was, and I'm quite happy that it worked.

I think, Retread & Lou and anyone else who is male and reading...this is what I don't get, and maybe you guys can clue me in here, but as a woman I find it odd that he can overlook these things. This is his home. This is where he lives. How can he not see, for instance, that the blind (which doesn't cost much and can be found at a store less than 1 mile from his work) needs to be replaced, that the edging under the kitchen sink needs to be reglued, or a spackling job has remained untouched for years and is in a common living area?

Are men programmed not to bother with such things unless they're nagged it's respectfully requested of them?

Retread - your posts make such good sense. I'm really grateful that you and Lou and any other men are hanging around here to give a male perspective.

Lou...something occurred to me this morning.

When you try to POJA with your wife, are you giving up too soon? Are her answers registering with you as 'oh brother. Here we go again - forget it then'?

I wonder if you're giving up before trying to negotiate a bit? Are you so sure of her answer that you've already half given up in your mind?