TTT, what I mean there is that the POJA should serve as the guide of how those responsibilties are met. And I very much agree with you that it is the responsiblity of spouses to meet the others needs.


I think this might happen intially in POJA, but the source of this problem - at least in my marriage - was that my H was in the bad habit of agreeing to things he didn't really want to do.

It is more annoying to me, and more damaging to the marriage, though, for the spouse to follow through on doing something he dislikes and make himself miserable. It is better for the marriage to RE-NEGOTIATE and find something that suits you both.

Additionally, people DO agree to things and then change their minds. That has to be accommodated. the goal of POJA is ALWAYS to make both partners happy. If that condition changes, then the agreement should be renegotiated.

But there are lots of things that cannot be renegotiated. Like having children. I am sure there are times when my husband would like to rengotiate that one . . . heck, there are times when I would, too! LOL

Seriously, I love my kids, and they are wonderful.

We can't POJA the things we can't control. We can only POJA how we will respond to them as a couple.

That is an excellent and critical point, TTT! No spouse should ever be punished for changing their mind. Like you, I had to TEACH myself to make a complaint without being obnoxious. The hardest thing for me to learn was to TAKE a complaint without reacting in anger. Its funny how that has changed since my goal now is making him happy, I WANT to know if something I am doing is making him unhappy so I can stop.

It really is true that complaints are irritations in bad marriages, but opportunities for change in good marriages.

This is a really good point. In the short run, having to re-POJA, even several times, may take a few units out of my love bank, but long-term, doing something he will resent will take WAY more out of HIS love bank. And my job as spouse is to protect HIS love bank and trust that he will do his best to protect mine in good faith.

Now, if I can't trust that his actions will protect my love for him well, that's when my boundaries come in. But that's for another thread, and isn't really much of an issue for me today personally.

Well, that doesn't make any sense. Why would you POJA something that is already completed? I mean, that is a nonsensical suggestion.

I think a lot of people would be inclined to say, "Well, I can take a complaint, but my spouse can't."

I know I would have a tendancy to say that

But I think as I model being able to take his complaints, over time he will begin to see that if I can do it, and actually take his complaints seriously, and even make changes based on his complaints, that he too may become more likely to take complaints in a less defensive manner. Plus, if my spouse is in love, he's less likely to be on the defensive to start with.

Here is teh thing, TTT, when you become accustomed to focusing on the happiness of the other partner and are sincerely seeking his enthusiastic agreement, you won't resent renegotiating the agreement because it will be too important to you to avoid anything that makes him unhappy. It becomes second nature.

BINGO! It took awhile for ME to not get defensive but when I saw that he was modeling that behavior and was sincerely interested in making me happy, my attitude changed.

[that and that fact that Dr Harley told me to stop calling his issues "mickey mouse!" ]

That's exactly what Retread was saying. That you can't re-POJA when the actions have already taken place.

However, what you CAN do is learn from the situation. Oops. I agreed to something to go along, I sacrificed, and it made me feel resentment, and I know that's bad for marriage. So next time I POJA, I'll be more honest so I don't end up with consequences I really don't like and never wanted in the first place. Best thing for ME to do if I've done that is to APOLOGIZE to my spouse for my initial dishonesty, and let him know what I've learned, and ask him to HELP me next time.

I have actually done that. We don't call our negotiating "POJA" but we follow it pretty much exactly as written, and because I have a tendancy to not speak up for myself, my husband now checks two or three times to make sure I really mean what I say. I find this very helpful, because being dishonest was a habit which I was literally unaware of!

What? You had a habit of DJing your husband? No! LOL

I still love your story of doing POJA for the first time in the gorcery store!

OK, I gotta go spend some UA time with you know who

That's exactly what Retread was saying. That you can't re-POJA when the actions have already taken place. [/quote]

It depends on what it is. Lets say we move to Omaha, but one spouse changes her mind when they get there. They most certainly CAN and SHOULD renegotiate that decision.

But, it goes without saying that one can't renegotiate the birth of a child. I also can't negotiate the day of the next Space Shuttle launch, but I don't think people would believe I had any control over that and saying so would just be an insane distraction to the discussion.

don't do anything I wouldn't do!!

Here is why we use POJA in my marriage:

For years I had been totally against getting pets after we had a couple die on us. I just didn't want to take care of an animal and I knew that if I agreed to take on a family pet, I'd end up taking care of it partially. My son would occassionally capture a turtle or my wife would feed stray cats around the neighborhood (which kept the cats coming back for food). I made my unhappiness at having these critters around very well known.

My wife had gotten into the habit of telling my son as he'd say he wanted a dog that "in a year" or "we'll look at getting a dog when you're 8" or insert whatever timeframe you want. And I'd very vocally say "we will never get a dog."

So one day my wife asks if we can go to the shlter so my son can look at dogs and if I don't agree, we don't have to get one. I tell her no because I'll get up there, he'll find one he wants and you'll start pointing out how happy he looks and it'll make me feel guilty about not wating to get a dog. She agreed she wouldn't push it and I told her she would despite what she was telling me.


So we go. He finds several he likes. He looks at cats (yuck) and then finds a dog he really likes. My wife proceeds to tell me how cute the dog is and how happy my son is. I say no, and my son starts begging. And my wife keeps insisting that "awww...look at how happy your son is".

So now I feel like an bsolute jerk for saying no. So I sigh and tell them that I will under no circumstances walk the dog, feed the dog, clean up after the dog, take the dog to the vet, pet the dog, or have anything to do the dog I don't want.

So now a couple years later, I have a dog that I like okay. If it ran away, I wouldn't really miss it at all.I have to take it on an occassional walk and it irritates me. I hae to put food out for it every once in awhile and it irritates me. The dog cost me a $500 deposit when we moved into a new place a couple months ago. Last week it ate my body pillow and my regular pillow and tore up my blanket and tore up the blinds on my side of the bed. It didn't touch my wife's.

I wish we had used POJA when getting the dog because then we would have done nothing and I wouldn't have a dog to deal with right now. I wish my wife wouldn't have pushed the issue on getting an animal. I wish I had not gone to the shelter that day like I knew I shouln't have. I wish the dog would run away forever.

Tell us how you really feel Kilted

I have dog regret too. Turns out I LOVE dogs, as long as I don't have to live with them. Live and learn.

Good point about the Omaha thing, ML.

However, one of the things about POJA is that if we can't come to enthusiastic agreement, then we do nothing until we DO come to enthusiastic agreement. Status quo.

So let's say we move to Omaha, then one we get there I change my mind. But my husband is happy with being there, loves his new job, new house, everything. I miss my parents, friends, etc. I've tried antidepressants. I've tried making new friends, tried to find a new church. People in this town are on the opposite side of the political spectrum from me and I feel like an outsider. The school system is run by a bunch of wackos. We try to POJA a solution, but cannot yet come up with a solution we are both enthusiastic about. So in the mean time we have to stay in Omaha, and every day we do is another drain on the old Love Bank, and my husband knows it, but just can't see leaving. Let's say he's a coach and got a GREAT gig coaching at a college. His dream job.

Rock meet hard place.

I'm not trying to be difficult. Just pointing out that once some decisions have been made, they can be very difficult to undo. POJA is a great tool to prevent the everyday sacrificing we do without realizing it until it's too late. But sometimes, marriage does call for sacrifice and compromise in order to even exist.

Kinda hits home right now. My brother and his long-term girlfriend found out they conceived a child. Good news is that they are best friends, bad news is that my brother has a career that takes him all over the world; and she already has 2 kids from a previous marriage to a serial cheater. They are planning to marry, but the reason they HADN'T married yet after being togehter for 7 years is that they both realized how incompatible their lifestyles are, and they wanted to wait until her children were older, she had her masters, and his career involved less living overseas. Also, they were both having second thoughts about whether they wanted to be married at all . . . they have always been good buddies and their strength is recreational companionship, but with him being gone so much, and at this point, probably working 2 hours away from their home because they can't afford to live in the city where his career is based, it seems like a recipe for disaster. I don't see that there's any way for their future marriage to have any hope without him making some major sacrifices with regard to career, because it's not as if she can simply move around with him with 3 kids, nor can they afford for her to live in the city where his job would be based. She makes very little money, and at least here she has her mom and my family to help with kids, etc.

OK, done the personal sob story. I worry about them.

yes career is a huge problem....my spouse wouldn't even put that on the table for consideration....period.....I know the right answer is to put the marriage 1st...and put the career or anything else on the table but you can't force a unwilling spouse to do that....and it will ruin your marriage.

Difficult, but not at all impossible. People do it every day. The trick is to:

a) channel your creativity into finding ways to make it work, instead of ways to not make it work as many folks here are doing,

b) learn to use the POJA on small things first and graduate up; ie: the grocercy store

c) practice, practice, practice


Once you learn how to use POJA on the little things, the bigger things are not easy for sure, but they are manageable and couples come up with surprising solutions.

Much of this success comes from the couples ATTITUDE. Once you get into the habit of looking for solutions, couples tend to have a PRO-ACTIVE approach, rather than the pessimistic outlook we have seen here.

A spouse who refuses to consider the feelings of his spouse is ruining his marriage. But you are right, the POJA is voluntary, it is not about force.

All I'm sayin is I got my kitchen blind up last night. Don't shoot the messenger. lol

Anyhoo. POJA isn't always easy, and when it isn't followed it has the potential to make withdrawals. I think that's established.

I think learning any new habit like POJA takes time and consistency. No one is saying to jump in with both feet and start with a major life decision. Start small. POJA dinner. POJA what chores you'll do over the weekend. Get acclimated to actually respecting each other and considering each others' feelings. That's my plan.

TTT - sorry about your family situation. I sense you're the worrier in the family, and I can relate to that very much. Say your prayers and do what you can as the aunt/sister/sil. That's all you can do. Acknowledge what you do and do not have control over and try to let the rest go. Some things are simply out of our control.

Almost anyone who changes jobs is going to make career mistakes, and since 1985, changing jobs is the norm. Most big companies have no loyalty to their employees.

At my age, I can tell you that I have made several career mistakes, and choices that could have been better. So did my wife. That's to be expected when you are young and not savvy.

The biggest mistake is for one party to force his viewpoint on their spouse. Worse yet, to force it by Independent Behavior. This can usually be rationalized in both people's minds by notions like, "We will follow whoever has the best opportunity." If there is a recession, none of the choices may be good. At different ages and experience, new doors open, other doors close.

1. Use POJA not just to select the job, but to brainstorm and plan what you will do if it does not work out, or if the other spouse finds they are not happy because they cannot find a job, or make friends, etc.

2. If you move anywhere, rent for at least the first year, or longer, to be sure you are going to be there five years, before buying a house.

3. Learn from your mistakes. The first step is to admit you made a mistake, especially if you forced your decision on your spouse. POJA will certainly made it easier, when you both agreed to the wrong decision.

4. Don't say, "I told you so!" but one time.
Especially if your spouse has admitted their mistake and improved their career, don't revisit history.

5. Be open minded to new careers, new opportunities, and the reality that you may have to change. The other side of the forcing a decision to change jobs or move, is vetoing it with SD, DJ, and AOs. That might work out if you were right, and the company soon has a big blow up, but it will be a source of forever resentment if the chance of a lifetime was missed.

There was a two-part article on MB by Dr. Harley about How to Have Your Career... but I cannot find the link to it.