Agree Soolee. I think at first most people are resistant and look for reasons NOT to do it. I was furious that I had to consult with my H over "mickey mouse" crap like lettuce and tortillas, which is really ridiculous when you consider that it was my idea to go through with that exercise.

And equally important is to understand that POJA requires 2 willing parties. No where does POJA profess to make people do things against their will. If a spouse refuses to engage, that is not a failing of the POJA. That is another marital problem entirely.

ITA....Melody could you tell me something...about the phone counseling....once you do the 1st one and go back for another one does Steve remember or write down your situation so you don't waste any time rehasing your 1st session? I ask cause I had this happen with a in person counselor + a on the phone counselor...it was very upsetting to me as any money I come by is very little and can't go to waste here...I'd be doing them alone by the way....H has refused each time I ask.

Thank you as always.

I have not counseled with him but others have told me that he is surprisingly good at that. The only complaint I have heard about Steve is that he runs late sometimes. And I suspect this is because if he is making inroads with a client, he does not STOP. Board members have said that Steve would let their hour run into 1 1/2, 2 hours. [he didn't charge them extra either]

Actually, I'm the most detached person in my family. My parents (and my brother) are the worriers. I am, too, but I have a "program" for that

If a spouse refuses to engage, that is not a failing of the POJA. That is another marital problem entirely.

Just wanted to touch on this, and I'm not saying you disagree - that's not what I mean...

In my opinion, we still have a responsiblity to try and POJA, even if it's one sided, because it conveys respect and thoughtfulness. It shows a good example if nothing else and helps us maintain some level of personal integrity.

When we toss a MB concept out the window because it isn't being reciprocated, we are not vindicating ourselves. In fact, we are doubling the pain in a myriad of ways, including eroding our own self respect.

The concepts are not just tools to help us strengthen our marriages but can strengthen and enhance any given relationship and our sense of self respect as well, if we allow them to. I really hope that I have the energy and will to take full advantage of the concepts and use them in many aspects of my life, not just my marriage.

I agree with this. I think we should demonstrate the behavior we expect to be treated with. My point is that if a spouse refuses to cooperate, that is not a failing of POJA. That point needs to be made clear on this thread.


With limitations, though. Most of these concepts are for the purpose of creating romantic love. That AIN'T something I want to do out side of my marriage.

No no. That's not what I mean. I believe that a lot of the concepts can be adapted to other areas in life in a non romantic way though.

Yes to all of this. We had a session with him yesterday. Plan to be available for two hours, so you have time to wait for his return call, and to go over at the end of your own. He asks for updates, but never asks, "Now remind me, what was the problem again?"

fwiw, we had one in-person counsel who couldn't remember our names, much less our situation.

Thanks Melody & CWMI! I will plan accordingly....I believe next week would be a good time....and I am not going to remind my spouse again that I am going forward on this....I'll just do it....I feel so uncomfortable about that...it is so not my nature...I am up front with him and this even feels like I am doing something w/o him is wrong....but he has left me no choice....I asked him...he said no....I told him I needed it and would be doing it....so what else can I do?

Just thought of something else....since I am a SHAM I would have to use our account to pay for it....geez I wonder if he will get upset at the cost...it's not like I have the money to pay for it.....I do have a VISA card and could use that....and pay if off by money order so he doesn't even know that way....this also feels very sneaky....I am not a sneaky person...it all makes me feel ill inside.

I can understand a H not wanting to put career on the table for negotiation. We put a lot of time, money and effort into our careers--it seems awfully manipulative to insist that such a thing should be negotiated.

This has become an important issue for me in the past two weeks---I have suffered through an ectopic pregnancy and my H wasn't even able to come to the doctor's appointments with me because of his tight work schedule. Add to that 14 hour days and two weekends where he worked full time and I was pretty emotionally drained. For the first time in my almost 5 year marriage, I missed my H terribly. Luckily, I was able to tell him that he needed to make time for me.

I don't believe that my H was being inconsiderate--my feeling was that he was doing what was best for our family at the time. I believe that his need to be responsible in his career is just as legitimate as my need for support during a rough time--as a result, I am able to care for myself during this time without major intervention by my H. He will make time to be with me soon, but I have to be patient until then. This, I feel is a good trade off. Neither one of us is unhappy and neither one feels cheated or unsupported--I support his aspirations and in turn, he does his best to support me during this difficult medical issue.

I think POJA of a spouse's career is legitimate if an affair with a work partner is the issue. In that case, the career is important, but the marriage must be put first. POJA of the spouse's career for the sake of more UA time is fuzzy for me--I can't justify that, especially since Financial support is a greater need for me.

CWMI, is he late for your session start sometimes? I hear that can happen because he goes over on his time so often.

Yes, about 20 minutes yesterday, and we ran about 90 minutes on the actual call. So whoever was after me...sorry!

aeri....I disagree.....you are donig the giver/taker based on what you just said.

In my case...my H works out of town for weeks away...coming home for part of a weekend....4 days per month (actually it's less....when you take out for the drive time) and most times the weekend to come home he will stay and work Sat and not leave for hom until 4pm...get home around 8pm and we have 24hrs before he leaves again.

Now that his job is local....he is working 7days per week.....4:45am until 8pm during the week and weekends are up for grabs on how long....sorry but this is something in my case that MUST be put on the table and corrected....he has a work addiction IMO along with a few others.

We have no time with this arrangement....based on your post I should continue to suck it up....I have done that for 20yrs....and it has built up such deep resentment that I don't think I can stay married much longer to my spouse....I do not feel love for him....I feel such pain of neglect it is unbearable.

I am glad this works for you but it won't work for me....I want my marriage the MB way or no way at all.

Anything that affects the marriage should be subject to POJA if you want to have a romantic marriage. It is not a matter of "has to;" because no one has to do anything. The question is "does this harm the romantic love in my marriage?" And if a career DOES, then the answer is to find a solution that makes you both happy using the POJA if you want to have a romantic marriage.

There are careers that are harmful to marriages, such as those with high travel. [read gemstones story] As Dr Harley has stated, traveling jobs are invitations to affairs. So avoiding such jobs is a step towards affair proofing the marriage. Not to mention that spending the night apart leads to emotional detachment.

And careers are a biggie because they can have such a huge impact on the happiness in a marriage. There is nothing that should be immune from the POJA if your marriage is your priority.

Even so, POJA is a voluntary process. It can greatly enhance the love in a marriage..............if that is what you are seeking.

BUT...why sacrifice one for the other? Why not try to do BOTH? If my H's career impedes UA time, it won't be long before we fall out of love, because UA time is REQUIRED to maintain romantic love. FS is NOT. If we fall out of love, then that is a greater danger than making less money because our marriage is more likely to end if we are not in love.

As Dr Harley has stated, his program does not even WORK unless you commit at least 15 hours per week to UA. So sacrificing UA time for FS does not really make sense if you want to stay married. And if you aren't married, you won't get any financial support anyway.

gemstone's situation demonstrates exactly what happens when you don't POJA such a biggie as a career. She is now ready to divorce her husband unless it changes.

lol...but we needed it! It was fantastic, and although we don't have an 'official' diagnosis yet, it has been agreed between the three of us that it is highly likely that my H suffers from OCPD. No wonder POJA can never be reached.

gemstone, I have had to work 70 and 80 hours a week for spells, to turn projects around, but anyone who is doing that for an extended period of time is working outside their comfort zone. They are not managing their time well, and not being productive enough.

Your husband needs to seriously assess what he is doing for a living and why it is such a struggle for him.

Like a lot of people who have survived a brush with death at work, I quickly saw that a lot of things were more important than working like a dog. I made a conscious decision to do more of what I liked, and work less, and have more fun doing it. If it meant less money to get more time with my wife and family, so be it. Scale back your lifestyle. A relaxing $500 vacation is better than a hectic $5,000 vacation that you had to leave your family for months in order to afford it.