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It has been a couple weeks since my last update. I am still confident NC has been maintained. W has just yesterday shared her past A with her IC. This was a very big step for her and I am sure very difficult for her. I am very proud of her for finally bringing it out for discussion.
We've been getting along better mostly, but I am still struggling to eliminate all my LBs. I keep discovering new ones but she is working with me "casually" rather than focusing on the MB tools. She has recently encouraged me that we are indeed working together and have time - I've been anxious about having deadlines or limited interest from her so this was welcome encouragement.
This week she visits her family again alone. I'm much more comfortable about it this round. I realize this is frowned upon and allows for NC to be broken but I feel safe with how things are progressing.
We have completed the ENQ and we've gone over them together which was also helpful. I wonder how often these should be revisited as some answers will change as our relationship improves, right? SF for example will be more often, things can change on the rankings, etc.
M 23 yrs.
both 47 yr. old
S 20, D 16
W had remote EA from 4/09 through 1/10. ended by OM for not going PA.
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This week she visits her family again alone. I'm much more comfortable about it this round. I realize this is frowned upon and allows for NC to be broken but I feel safe with how things are progressing. Spending the night apart is an INVITATION to an affair. I am not sure why you would risk your marriage like this? Do you not want to save your marriage? Step ONE is changing UNTRUSTWORTHY behaviors. These kind of loose boundaries led to past affairs and will lead to another. How can you trust if there are no sane boundaries, L46? 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide. I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail. The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy. This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted. An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them. After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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She says she is accepting the fact my trust has been betrayed and accepts that it will take time to rebuild. We talked about this while she was away. She expected I would be inquiring about how her time was spent. At one point she said it's ok this time but not next time. I raised this to her - that she was putting a deadline on my restoring trust in her. She agreed that was not fair. ] ok, this is not a person who is interested in recovery; but one who is interested in HIDING SOMETHING from you. It is ALWAYS OK for you to snoop on her because you have a RIGHT to know each and everything she does and every word she utters. It was this secrecy and lack of transparency that led to her affair in the first place. Tell her the deadline for restoring trust is when she buries you. When you DIE. You should NEVER trust her again, especially when she wants to hide things from you. Recovery has to BEGIN with a complete and total transparency. That has not happened here. You have a WAYWARD wife who is still invested in hiding things. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. That is not a negotiable issue after an affair, L46. You DO NOT negotiate away the protective boundaries in your marriage. [unless you want to go through another affair] Her behavior should indicate to you that you need to snoop like a bloodhound. Hire a PI, slap a keylogger on her computer, put a GPS on her car. A person who wants to hide and who feels they have an entitlement for trust is UNTRUSTWORTHY. You need to watch her like a HAWK. It was too much trust that just about destroyed your marriage before, l46, are you going to make the same mistake again?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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It sounds like she is saying that you should go through a process of rebuilding trust ... and that then everything should go back to the way it was before. Because then you "trust" her.
That is absolutely wrong and backwards. Things should never go back to how they were before.
By the way, you simply asking her after the fact how her time was spent doesn't prove anything. Don't accept things that aren't proof as proof.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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L, Pleeeeez pay attention to Melody and Believer. That's 67,000 posts backing me up. These people don't mess around, L. I'd like to say I'm encouraged by your WW's actions, like confessing her ADULTERY with her IC, and filling out the ENQ. But I was once where you are. I didn't want to believe people who told me my ww's good mood was a reflection of her plans to see OM, and feeling that she had regained enough trust in me to pull off further activity. But they were so right. My ww also filled out the ENQ, read "5 STeps," went to MC, and even claimed to have visited this website. She did it all to [b]appease [/b]me and then carried on with her wayward business. BTW, if she was truly repentant and no longer wayward, sharing her ADULTEROUS behavior wouldn't be "difficult" for her. It would be part of her past that she has moved beyond and is Realizing how many people she hurt and would be wanting to relieve herself of that burden, by apologizing and making amends. She has not come to grips that she went OUTSIDE the marriage to have her needs met. You know what that means, L46? It means she will do it again, and next time she will take measures to make sure she doesn�t get caught. And I�m sincerely not trying to beat you up now: what LB�s are you having trouble with? They have GOT to stop. If not for your wife and your Plan A (you ARE in plan A, right?), then for you. Now that you know what LB�s are, you simply have to eliminate them; unless you do, your self-worth will suffer. Right now you need all the self-worth you can get, my friend. Why, why, why does she have to go to her family�s alone, why????  Why would she want to? ~opt
Me: 43 y.o. BFWH, D-day 11/11/09 (NC since 9/01) Divorce from WW final 9/16/10. Current Status: MB-based Marriage to Nature Girl 12/8/12 (first date on 12/11/10) Mine: S(16), D(11) NatureGirls: S(23), D(21) Another EA Story
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Thanks for all the warnings folks. Actually I'm not too concerned about her breaking NC. Based on her demeanor, the fact she did open up to her IC about it - finally! This I see differently than you Opt, as she would not have done so if she had any intention of starting it up again. I'm growing more comfortable but will continue to look for signs. Right now the signs are telling me she is working hard to get over it and not resume.
I'm not getting much appeasement from her, but I am getting more reassurance of her efforts to rebuild the M/R.
I had a bad day Saturday where I became depressed we failed to have SF following our night out Friday. It hit me hard because I had taken a "signal" from her earlier in the evening that we were to - but she fell asleep. It ruined my and her Saturday. I realized how depression can feel that day even though I am sure I have felt is as strongly in the past - it was very hard. She helped me out of it and things are moving in the right direction again. That was a big LB for sure.
M 23 yrs.
both 47 yr. old
S 20, D 16
W had remote EA from 4/09 through 1/10. ended by OM for not going PA.
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L46, you are in what we call a false recovery. If there is not a plan for recovery, your marriage will not recover. Not only is there not a plan for recovery, there is not even a willingness to affair proof your marriage by becoming transparent.
Your wife is intent on leading the same secret lifestyle that led to the affair in the first place. She wants to have secrets from you, which means only one thing: SHE HAS SOMETHING TO HIDE.
I am not sure why you think opening up to a counselor has any significance at all. Why is that a good thing and what does it have to do with your marriage?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Dr Harley wrote this over on the weekend forum to a woman who is recovering from her husband's affair: extraordinary precautions
Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on your husband's willingness and ability to make radical changes. His lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. He is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe.
He must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now he has failed. Your resentment, defensiveness, and questions regarding the wisdom of staying in your marriage are all very reasonable -- unless your husband makes a 180 degree turn in his approach to what it means to be a husband. As your husband proves himself to you, your resentment will fade, and your questions will be answered. But if he keeps giving you evidence that nothing has changed, your defensiveness won't change, either. Kim will help both of you sort things out because she is very aware of what it will take to reconcile. Your husband still has a way to go.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I thought I would give a brief update. W returned from visit to parents in good spirits, better than last time, but I find this is due to the situation at the nursing home more than anything. The last visit she left under difficult circumstances not related to us. She was very stressed about things at the home. This trip had much better overall feel with the care they are providing.
Things between us are rather stagnant. We are having SF occasionally and she is showing some signs of affection. She holds back some because she doesn't want to get me going too often, and I tend to take any small sign as an open door to "the works". Here feelings for me are not that strong. I don't know if they will return. But I am convinced NC is being maintained. I don't want to argue more on this. I will keep watch but my issue is more focused on building feelings that have been long gone.
M 23 yrs.
both 47 yr. old
S 20, D 16
W had remote EA from 4/09 through 1/10. ended by OM for not going PA.
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I will keep watch but my issue is more focused on building feelings that have been long gone. You're running the best Plan A you can muster, L46? And 'keeping watch.' keep us posted, L. opt
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I am opt... one issue is I don't know all the LBs that may be out there. She doesn't want to work to hard on the surveys.
Another issue is coming up which may require some more snooping. She continues to adjust history and come up with new recollections of how I've influenced her in the past. Latest is keeping her from having friends by having negative comments about them. So now she is using that one against me to claim "contolling" behavior and needed privacy and trust. I guess this is referred to as "fog talk"... She's not on board with MB so I'm doing what I can. I've been given all the warnings, and heeding them as best I can.
Thanks for all the helpful support.
M 23 yrs.
both 47 yr. old
S 20, D 16
W had remote EA from 4/09 through 1/10. ended by OM for not going PA.
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Her "need" for privacy and trust is a non issue right now. She used your trust and her privacy to have an A and if granted before she is completely remorseful and your M is in R, she will use them for the same purpose.
God's Blessings,
Say
Me, BW-57
FWH 54
4 kids and 4 grandbabies between us
In recovery since D-day, May 28,2007
FWH never onboard the MB boat but still clinging to the side.
One day at a time by God's grace.
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I'm not sure I'm doing this plan A thing right. Seems like we make some progress then I get disappointed by something and get depressed which has to be a LB.
For example last night I was hoping and planning on some SF. She had gone out with a girlfriend and came home for a backrub and a show. It went smoothly but afterward she just rolled over to go to sleep. Yes, she was tired and it was getting late. But I was up all night - no sleep. Bothered by no SF and her general lack of focus on the M. She's focused on herself. Now to face a day where we had planned to do some major yardwork together and I'm toast, and feel the need to address the demons in my mind.
She's not into that, as I can't seem to have a discussion with her without her feeling as though I am angry or controlling.
Part of me wants to ask her to move out.
There is no OM, but she has recently begun a new texting relationship with an aid at the nursing home. I know... red flag. I get that. I've checked them out the best i can and it's innocent so far and I can believe it will stay that way. I know... watch closely. It just bothers me due to the similarities to the A. Her counselor thinks I need to deal with my own angst. So there it is.
Please advise on the plan A question and how to handle relationship talk in plan A. I do not want or need the warnings about this new friend.
Thanks for any help...
M 23 yrs.
both 47 yr. old
S 20, D 16
W had remote EA from 4/09 through 1/10. ended by OM for not going PA.
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L46 Have you read this book? It answers a lot of questions about how Lovebusters work and how we (as in I) deal with them differently. Well worth the cost for the book. The Book Love Busters There is no OM, but she has recently begun a new texting relationship with an aid at the nursing home Sorry to be rough but I would ammend this to say "AT THE MOMENT". I haven't posted to you before because you were getting excellant advice from Vets with way more time than I have on this board. Until the conditions that lead to the other A are addressed it more than likely will continue. If not with first AP then a new one. I've checked them out the best i can and it's innocent so far and I can believe it will stay that way. I know... watch closely. It just bothers me due to the similarities to the A. I know thats not what you want to hear but I would go up to all the excellant advice you were given in previous posts. There is a common denominator in almost all of them and I don't see where a lot of action on your part has happened. If nothing changes-Nothing changes. Nesre
M 29 yrs
DS 28 DD 18
Me 53 FWH FBS
MTA signed 5/11/2011
D final 5/16/2011
Free.... and going wherever the big guy wants me to go......
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L,
I don't know if you're doing Plan A correctly or not. But I would like to know the purpose of you're doing Plan A. What's your next step?
Keep in mind my sitch. I was able to all but squash one EA with exposure. Within several weeks WW was repeating the same exact patterns of behavior that lead to the First A (which was actually her second...). Point: Plan A, and exposure alone essentially did not get me where I thought I wanted to be. Now in the process of D, and comfortable with it, but that's another matter.
More important: I might have some insight for you FourSix, so don't go too far away, alright?
opt
Me: 43 y.o. BFWH, D-day 11/11/09 (NC since 9/01) Divorce from WW final 9/16/10. Current Status: MB-based Marriage to Nature Girl 12/8/12 (first date on 12/11/10) Mine: S(16), D(11) NatureGirls: S(23), D(21) Another EA Story
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Thanks Opt.
I was hoping we would get to a better place than where we started. I know deep down my W would want that, but she is so set upon the past she can't get to the present. I've been doing an imperfect plan A since about October. This was well before I had any idea there was an EA ongoing. It ended not by any of my doing, but before I confirmed it. I do feel she understands this is wrong and won't allow it to happen again, but only to the extent she believes it is a negative influence. She has her counselors support to break free of the feelings she has harbored which means she has to do what she wants regardless of how I might feel. It's their management of her being controlled. So with the new friend texting all day long is fine in their eyes as long as it is platonic - which it has been. I've read many of them but not all.
I want something more than she's capable of giving, at least for now. I'm just dead tired of my efforts getting me only so far. It seems she is happier with the mediocre M we had last year and before.
Today I feel very down and beaten. Maybe an a few days I will somehow get rejuvinated. But at this point all I can see for us is being good roommates.
She has not initiated any SF - has only allowed it to happen. There's no affection. We have gotten along better but the progress waxes and wanes.
M 23 yrs.
both 47 yr. old
S 20, D 16
W had remote EA from 4/09 through 1/10. ended by OM for not going PA.
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There is no OM, but she has recently begun a new texting relationship with an aid at the nursing home. I know... red flag. I get that. I've checked them out the best i can and it's innocent so far and I can believe it will stay that way. I know... watch closely. It just bothers me due to the similarities to the A. Her counselor thinks I need to deal with my own angst. So there it is. Is this a MALE coworker?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I want something more than she's capable of giving, at least for now. I'm just dead tired of my efforts getting me only so far. It seems she is happier with the mediocre M we had last year and before. L46, my suggestion would be to try the Marriage Builders program. Since you have never been in recovery, your marriage is headed for another affair. That is usually what happens when a marriage does not recover after an affair. Here is what Dr Harley wrote to woman over on the weekend forum whose WH was doing nothing to recover: Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on your husband's willingness and ability to make radical changes. His lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. He is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. He must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now he has failed. Your resentment, defensiveness, and questions regarding the wisdom of staying in your marriage are all very reasonable -- unless your husband makes a 180 degree turn in his approach to what it means to be a husband. As your husband proves himself to you, your resentment will fade, and your questions will be answered. But if he keeps giving you evidence that nothing has changed, your defensiveness won't change, either. Here is what it will take to recover your marriage: The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide. I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail. The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy. This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted. An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them. After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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There is no OM, but she has recently begun a new texting relationship with an aid at the nursing home. I know... red flag. I get that. I've checked them out the best i can and it's innocent so far and I can believe it will stay that way. I know... watch closely. It just bothers me due to the similarities to the A. Her counselor thinks I need to deal with my own angst. Her counselor is an enemy to your marriage and a complete and total idiot. She is a danger to your marriage.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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