Her counselor is an enemy to your marriage and a complete and total idiot. She is a danger to your marriage.

Plagerism: the sincerest form of flattery.


I would add that the counsellor is a complete and total idiot.


el46, you didn't really address my question. Why are you in Plan A?
I'll give you a hint: is it because you are trying to woo her into returning to the marriage and for once making an effort to build a great relationship with you? Does it have anything to do with some guilt you have about your past performance as a husband?


opt

Opt,

Yes, I am trying to show her we can have a stronger and better M. I do feel guilt about my past performance. I have ADHD and it has proven to be very difficult for me to hear her cries for attention which helped create the conditions.

Her IC has helped us find this and get help for it. I am concerned about some of the advice she gets. But we discuss it and get to a mutual understanding of what its based on.

W is not doing this program. I am not formally either, but reading a lot here and taking what I think fits our sitch.

One problem I have is lack of trust is a huge LB. So the advice conflicts. I can't force her to be totally open if she sees this as a huge issue from our past.

At this point there is nothing to expose with this new texting activity. It is friendly texting. She gets some additional insight into her fathers care. I have to wait for it to either develop into something or not.

We had a good talk last night about this and much more. I will get back on this horse and keep riding the best plan A I can and watch for evidence of A.

I'm not even sure what constitutes an EA. Maybe you can help me with that one....

When someone other than you starts to put deposits into HER LOVE BANK at a regular rate the risk of an EA is always there. Since this was the case before without your knowledge could this possibly be the case now? READ PSOT ON OTHER THREADS...MOST SAY STARTED OUT TEXTING..STARTED OUT fb..sTARTED OUT WHATEVER..tHE OTHER PERSON MADE DEPOSITS TO her/hIS love bank> AS IT DEVLOPS MORE AND MORE DEPOSITS ARE MADE. EA'S DAMAGE THE BOND THAT YOU AND YOUR WIFE NEED TO BE A HAPPILY M'D COUPLE.

I am not familiar with others that have had EA's only. Perhaps another poster could post a link here to someones thread otherwise I will research later and find one.
gotta run. Be back later.
Nesre.

L46, the thing about this program is that in order for it to be effective, it has to be an all or nothing approach. Cherry picking will avail you nothing. As you can see with your own eyes, that approach is not working. This counselor doesn't have the slightest idea how to save your marriage and is going to destroy your marriage by supporting your wife in destructive practices.

Secondly, Plan A is not appropriate for your situation. It is supposed to be a temporary plan for ongoing affairs. It is not meant to be a way of life for conflict avoiders.

Right now you should be in a plan of recovery and that has not happened. Your wife is well on her way to her NEXT affair because you have NEVER EVER put any sane boundaries in place. Why in the world is she texting men? Your wife is playing chicken with your marriage and you say nothing. I don't understand.

It seems clear to me that your main goal is to avoid conflict, whereas the main goal of Marriage Builders is to save your marriage. They are completely different goals. Conflict avoidance will not save your marriage and cherry picking the MB program for CA tactics will avail you more of the same: nothing.

]
No. Lack of trust is not a "lovebuster." That is ridiculous. Lack of trust is a reaction to an untrustworthy person. You should not trust an untrustworthy person. YOUR WIFE SHOULD NOT BE TRUSTED.

It was too much trust that led to her first affair. It is not lack of trust that destroys marriages, but a lack of boundaries.

The only reason your wife wants your blind trust is so that she can more successfully hide her NEXT AFFAIR. You are being gaslighted.

I will post this quote again by Dr Harley and point out that he DOES know how to save marriages, unlike your counselor:

I have NOT said nothing... I have expressed my concerns. She feels the boundaries are in place. I can't force her not to communicate with this person. ALl I can do is hope it does not affect us negatively. From what I have seen she uses him as a sounding board. We have discussed the similarities to the prior sitch. She needs me to allow her to prove herself. What are you suggesting? I don't necessarily like it but what can I do other than eliminate LBs and provide the ENs as best I can?

Fair enough but what if she is not on board? I cannot force her to use Harley's advice.

L46, that is not a plan of recovery. Hope is not a plan and she is now headed to her next affair. She can't prove herself by becoming a better chicken player; she proves herself by STOPPING playing chicken altogether.

Ask yourself this. Do alcoholics 'prove themselves" by becoming better drunk drivers? Or do they "prove themselves" by stopping drunk driving altogether? It is INSANE for you to think she can "prove herself" by communicating with men via text? How can she prove herself by engaging in risky behavior??

That is not how this works, L46. A person "proves themselves" by STOPPING the risky behavior. Not by becoming better at the risky behavior.

It is NOT a lovebuster to INSIST that your wife respect your boundaries and stop exposing your marriage to AFFAIR #2. That is a ridiculous misunderstanding of the MB concepts. It is not a "lovebuster" to expect that your wife will actively participate in a PROGRAM OF RECOVERY.

What you have done here is lower the bar SO LOW that your marriage will never recover.


But there are no boundaries in place, L46. Feelings are not truth. Your boundaries should NOT be negotiable, becuase if they are, all you have done is negotiate the DEMISE of your marriage.

You have done nothing more than negotiate "boundaries" with a terrorist who has only her self interest in mind. That is a huge mistake that is preventing the recovery of your marriage. I am just telling you, friend, if you don't knock it off and turn this around, YOU ARE HEADED FOR AFFAIR #2.

That is right, but she cannot force you to stay around for affair #2 and #3, can she? Are you up for that? Because that is where you are headed.

See, as long as you continue to lower the bar as you are, she will live DOWN to your expectations. It is up to you to STOP going along with this nonsense plan and RAISE THE BAR.

Nowhere in the list of lovebusters does it cite asking a WW to affair proof your marriage or give her undeserved trust as a "lovebuster":

Selfish Demands
Disrespectful Judgments
Angry Outbursts
Annoying Habits
Independent Behavior
Dishonesty

In fact, Dr Harley states that extraordinary precautions after an affair are NON-NEGOTIABLE. He states that demands are warranted when a spouse is in an affair.

Meetin' needs and appeasing a terrorist is not going to save your marriage, L46. There is a very specific path of recovery after an affair and all the need meetin' in the world will not compensate for its lack of implementation.

And when I was a practicing alcoholic I "felt" like I was a good drunk driver. Does that mean it was true? Does that mean my H should have accepted my feelings as truth and allowed me to drive my car onto the rocks?

It would not have made a dent if he "expressed his concerns." A selfish person does not care about the "concerns" of others. Just as your wife does not care about your concerns. What she will care about are REAL BOUNDARIES that are backed up with CONSEQUENCES when they violated. That is ALL she will respect.

L46

Couple of threads about EA's (ADDED) You only need to read a few paragraphs down in these threads to see how the EA started. (ADDED)

Linus thread

Tinkerbell81

wheelsspinning


EA's are every bit as damaging to M's as PA's.

Please listen to ML-She knows what she is talking about. I have to agree your M is on a slippery slope if bounderies are not put in place and enforced.

IC is an idiot. I would place a crispy brand new washington the IC is divorced and into whatever makes "YOU FEEL GOOD" type of stuff.. (ADDED-Most-not all IC's goal is to get the client out of their pain.The methods may not always be helpful to the M.(ADDED)

Nesre

I'd be happy to. Dr. Harley says in an article that, essentially, the definition is different for everyone. Mel can probably give a ref to the article.

Here's my analogy:

You start beating your wife. With your fists. Nightly. Finally she says "I can't live with you anymore because you are beating me." You reply: "I'm not beating you, if I were beating you I would be using a belt."

See, cuatro-seis, the victim gets to define the abuse, not the perpetrator.


opt

Not Mel, but here's the link to the article...
What is an affair? by Steven W. Harley
From the article:

Mark

A boundary is not defined as "something I don't like."

A boundary is defined as "something I will defend no matter what."

A very common question is, "How do I enforce a boundary? How do I make my spouse stop lying, how do I make my spouse stop dating OP, how do I make my spouse start taking care of our family instead of someone else's?"

The answer is: You don't.

Trying to "make" people do the things listed above is not enforcing a boundary. It's control, it's manipulation, it's laying down demands, etc. etc. etc.

And none of it works.

The answer to the question, "How Do I Enforce A Boundary?" is virtually always the same:

You remove yourself from the situation. You stop allowing the boundary trespasser to have any access to you at all.

This is what's meant by, "You can't control others. You can only control yourself."

You can't "make" your spouse stop lying to you - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse stop dating OP - - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse take care of your family instead of someone else's - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

Get the idea now?

Boundaries are for *you*. They are to protect you from people who would do you harm. They are NOT about "making" others do anything. They are about protecting *YOU*.

Castle walls don't make the invaders stop their cruel and destructive attitudes - but they do protect you from their intrusion.

Boundaries are castle walls.

Alright then. I define if it is EA or not. As of today it is not. I understand the risk. I also understand that if I cannot accept it I can remove myself from the relationship.

Plan A says you don't move out. I did think of asking her to move out over this before we discussed it in greater detail. But as of now there is no evidence she has crossed the line - the line I set.

So, there is no EA today, and she is taking this risk. I'm not sure the alcoholic analogy works for my W. Everyone and every sitch is different. I can learn from the posts I read here only the risk, not what my future holds with any certainty.

So my choices are:
1) move out to remove her access to me,
2) ask her to move out or toss her out for texting,
3) continue to meet her ENs and watch for something more to develop.

Any other options?

BTW, her IC is happily married, so someone owes me a dollar

L46: Here is one aspect of Plan Appeasement that you may not have thought of:

Your wife is, at the very least, dating other men. She may well be sleeping with them (and almost certainly is). Either way, she is getting one message and one message only about this from you:

You
Don't
Care.

Oh, sure, you've whined about it a little and maybe told her that it bugs you. But that's all. She snarled at you and you backed right off.

You have shown her that you will not fight for her and you will do nothing to keep other men away from her.

The overwhelming message your WW gets from you is

You
Don't
Care

You might want to think about this from a female point of view.

Oh, and two dollars says the IC's "happy marriage" is really an affairage.

P.S.
THIS IS WHY EVERYONE TOLD YOU TO EXPOSE

EXPOSING THIS NASTY WORM OF AN OM TO THE WORLD *WOULD* BE FIGHTING FOR YOUR WIFE AND *WOULD* BE STANDING UP TO THE INTRUDING OM IN THE BEST POSSIBLE WAY.

THIS IS WHY EVERYONE TOLD YOU TO EXPOSE

can you hear me now?

No. Every situation is not different. All marriages are the same in that they are endangered by opposite sex friendships. Your situation is not immune to affairs. Your marriage is headed to another affair because you won't follow these guidelines.

You are not in Plan A. But if an adulterer REFUSES to affair proof your marriage and starts having another affair, WHICH YOUR WIFE IS, then it is time to go to PLAN B. The time for Plan A is over. The fact that she is having another opposite sex "friendship" should be a deal breaker for you. But its not.


And this is what we are trying to tell you. You have no boundaries and you desperately need to set boundaries. In order for your marriage to recover, you need to set boundaries or you are headed for affair #2 and #3, and on and on...

L46, my fear is that you are going to go through some other affairs before you wake up and start helping yourself. I don't really expect you to GET IT but I wanted other posters to see that doing nothing is likely to lead to other affairs. Your situation is the natural result of not having any boundaries and no plan of recovery.

You have been getting all the right advice here so not much to add.

The original topic suggests why its taking so long "Slowly?"


The process will go much faster if you can really nail this Nurse character and get him canned from his job. Also I feel it is your responsibity to do this because you are the only one of us who can.

Exposure brings these dirty deeds out into the light so they can be dealt with properly. Even if you find some way to get this guy away from your wife the stuff has to all come out before you can begin recovery. Until she is as mad at herself for hurting you as you are hurt, it won't begin.
Even after that it will take some time to cycle through all the emotions you both will need to untill your solid again. Hang in there, many have done that here.


PLease get this guy out of health care for the rest of us decent respectful human beings. Showing him mercy is condoning his actions.
Your wife will thank you for fighting for her.