You have no control over her mind racing or her thoughts. She will heal and you will heal, and will do it on your own. As long as you're doing nothing else to hurt her, you both have to let each other heal the way you need to...

NG,

The point I make is that the changes you are making in behavior will only really "count" if she sees them take hold for a very long time.

And they will only "count" once they become truly a part of who you are. Because right now, the fact is that you ARE doing them in response to the realization of your affair, and in order to redeem yourself.

Whether you are trying to make the changes for her, or for yourself, really doesn't matter. Her worry right now is that the changes are TEMPORARY or not. Do you understand that?

Her worry is that what she sees from you may be a temporary change, and that you are trying to "do your time" - that you only intend to change for as long as you "need to", and that the changes she sees will last about as long as her pain does. That once she appears to you to be "getting over this", you will quickly return to being the old husband - the liar, the cheat, the porn king.


What you struggle for - both internally and externally - is TRUE CHANGE.

This is probably one of the most difficult hurdles in life to clear. True change.

First, you must behave in the manner of the change - for a very long period of time. This places the change WITHIN YOU. Then, over time, your belief system must undergo the change, again, WITHIN YOU. The attitudes you have toward morals, judgements in daily life, world views, and decision making in your mind - all these must CHANGE.

And you must feel the changes, and see them, first WITHIN YOURSELF.

The hard sell? For others to not only "see" your behavioral changes - daily, weekly, monthly, yearly - but for them to truly understand, feel, trust, and believe that the changes have taken place within your soul.

What you see in your wife has been a clean sweep of her trust of you. You wiped away what she believed you to be - and now your life is centered on changing:

You must change what you ARE
into
What you WANT TO BE
and
Help your wife believe in those changes.


This will NOT happen overnight.
And it will take YEARS - for YOU to believe, and for her to follow in her trust and belief, as well.


This will be the hardest work you have ever taken on in your life.


At the end, the reward is worthwhile. Nothing worthwhile comes quickly, cheaply, or easily.


SB

SB,
I see what you are saying and I understand it. I do want the changes and I know it will take time. I am just so lost and we really haven't much support around here because most of our friends have alienated us because of what I did to her, which makes them not true friends I know, but very hard to lean on anybody. Thats why I lean on you all like I do, sorry for that, just no real support here. Family is in another state and true friends are there too. Talking to you all on here helps but it is just not the same as talking to a real person.

Thanks again to everyone and please keep the advice coming, it is really helping me.

naveguy, what EXACTLY are you doing for your sex addiction? This needs to be addressed NOW. No amount of MB knowledge or vet advice will help until you have this under control.

You know, I am sick of hearing this needs above another�s crap. I am a human freakin being and I have needs to. I though I had to be honest, I thought I had to be open. Yeah I could have brought it up at a more appropriate time, but I am human. Was I supposed to keep my mouth shut and do it behind her back???? NO! I can't freakin win here. Why bother anymore if I can't fill any of my needs, if I can't get them filled anywhere? I am just to become a hollow man, a shell in a hole rotting away because I screwed up? NO! I am being honest with her and honest with you all here. I don't do well with stress and I have NO SUPPORT anywhere I go. What am I supposed to do???? I don't want to hear anything about self pitty either, because I have to vent as well and I would rather do it here then at her and cause more drama than I already have! I don't care what people tell me I can feel the tension when I talk with them about it so they are not really a support if all they say is "I don't know" or "I can't give you an answer" I AM LOST AND I JUST CAN'T TAKE IT! But no it's my fault and I have to suffer, don't worry if he is a human just need to suffer and keep his mouth shut because he was an a$s and has no right to an opinion or feelings.

I was supposed to go to a SA meeting on wed night but we got busy and both forgot about it till it was too late. I go see my counselor today and am going to talk with her, but not sure what else I can do. I have gone to recovery nation and gotten very little coaching there, I can read and read and read but I don't learn that way. Besides all the SA meetings do is a place to vent about life they don't teach you coping methods or other ways to get by. If I want to vent I can come here, why drive 30 miles out of my way and sit in a room full of weirdo's and tell them about my life. Those people creep me out. I don't want them knowing me or my business.

I DO appreciate all of your comments, concerns, support, and advice. Please don't be mad at me because I went off on a bad vent, but I have to get it out and not bottle it up anymore, bottling it up is tearing me down. Please keep it coming and again sorry to have gone off.

naveguy,

What was it about Michele's question that caused you to attack the advice you have received here?

If you are "sick of hearing this need about another's crap", you will not put in the work to repair the damage you have done to your wife and your marriage.

Hey the ups and downs and anger are all part of the recovery for yourself.....self awareness brings out anger and hopelessness......you vented, pick yourself up, brush yourself off and move forward.....
you are right, come here for support, people here bring out all the good and bad in us and that is a good thing. We all need to think everything through, good and bad about ourselves. A lot of us here have lived through the same thing and can offer help to cope.
Dont' dispair, it's a long road with a lot of bumps.......
don't give up......little steps at a time......

Sugar, no I am putting everything in, and getting nothing in return. I am human, when one does everything right and gets nothing to show that one is doing it right, then that person will give up because they don't see that they are doing it right.

I have been this way for years and now I am supposed to stop cold turkey? Doesn't work like that. For the 11 years we have been married she has enabled me to be that way. I am NOT blaming her for what I did I TAKE FULL responsibility for what I did. But I have lived that way for so long I have to re-learn everything. I have to teach myself how to be that way and I will have stumbles along the way. When I quite smoking I would still have a cigarette every now and again. Did I have a full pack that day, NO, did I go out and buy a carton again, NO, but I finally got there and stopped. Same thing here, I am going to stumble, I can't be perfect right out the gate, you all talk about giving her time to heal, well how about giving me time to learn and do it right...I didn't go out and sleep with someone else, I didn't get online to look at porn or to troll for something. Yes what I did was wrong and at the wrong time, I get that and I have apologized for that, but it was all I knew, I am still learning how to better deal with stress. I am moving our stationary bike down into our bedroom so we can get on it and start exercising. Before it was up in our office and out of site, you know "out of site, out of mind", well that�s why I am moving it in site so we can have another outlet for the stress.

Again I am sorry if I have overstepped my bounds here, but I need to get this stuff out.

naveguy: Addicts become VERY angry when their drug of choice is threatened. Your response is very typical of the addict who thinks he might have to go without his drug. The selfishness takes over and NOTHING else matters except that drug, and anyone who threatens that drug becomes the enemy.

An alcoholic responds no differently when somebody tries to take his booze.


Uh - yeah, it DOES work like that, actually.

Did you ever see the VH1 series on Sex Addiction with Dr. Drew? Are you aware that in order to get the clients to sexual sobriety, they were told to have no sexual activity at all for several weeks and perhaps longer - including masturbation?

You can go to the VH1 website and see the whole series.

It looks to me that like any typical addict, you want to control how and when you kick your drug. That will never, ever work. If you could control your addiction, you wouldn't be where you are now.

If you don't like your SA group and "forget" to go to meetings, what do you think would be a better way to break your sexual addiction?

Mulan, I don't know, what else there is. Like I said I will try to stop doing what I did, yes I know I have to stop, I am just saying don't expect me to be perfect out the gate, that doesn't work and with no support then how else? I moved the bike into our bedroom so when I get an urge or want to relieve stress I have that in front of me so I can get on that for a while. I am at my wits end here. I know I can't count on her to help me because I have to be there for her, but who is supposed to be there for me??? Everyone I try to talk to thinks I am a total piece of crap and don't deserve to be with her. They can tell me all day long they are here, but I feel the tension when I talk to them, I know they hate me for what I did, so how do I get support so I can support her???

What, exactly, does Recovery Nation say about treating SA?

Again: You cannot do this by yourself. You cannot be the one to direct your own recovery. It doesn't work that way. You must get serious, serious help for the SA *from professionals* and let THEM direct your recovery.

"Forgetting" to go to meetings and saying "I don't like what they're talking about" is very typical of the massively resistant addict who just doesn't want to give up his drug, and who still hopes to find some way to have both a marriage AND his addiction (whether it's alcohol, heroin, gambling, sex, or whatever).

What does Recovery Nation recommend?

And maybe I missed this, but are you working? I mean, do you have a regular 40-hour-a-week job?

[quote=naveguy]Sugar, no I am putting everything in, and getting nothing in return. I am human, when one does everything right and gets nothing to show that one is doing it right, then that person will give up because they don't see that they are doing it right.




I KNOW THAT I AM NOT SUPPOSED TO POST ON YOUR THREAD, BUT I JUST WANT TO REMIND YOU OF SOMETHING........I PUT EVERYTHING IN TO OUR MARRIAGE, AND GOT PRETTY MUCH NOTHING, AND I NEVER GAVE UP ON YOU OR US. YOUR WRONG, YOU NEED TO LOOK AT IT DIFFERENTLY. I LOVE YOU, IN SPITE OF YOUR DESPICABLE CHARACHTER,AND THE WAY YOU HAVE TREATED ME FOR SO LONG. I STILL LOVE YOU. I THINK YOU NEED TO THINK ABOUT THAT!

Pumpkin, No I am NOT giving up. I do think about that and that is what is keeping me here and moving forward. I guess I could have worded it differently but then again I guess not. I know what I put you through, I live it everyday and I hate myself for doing it, but I am trying to change and give you the time, but I need time too, I am trying and failing, I need support too, I know not from you but I need help too. This is my outlet I am sorry babe, I really am.

Mulan, recovery nation hasn't said crap, or given me anything. I have posted on there and they just tell me yeah you have a problem and need help but no one shows me what to do or how to do it. And being in the navy with 2 yrs to retire and already facing a medical discharge before I can retire. Not sure where else to go right now.

That's what we're trying to do. You don't see it as support but it is. It's good to vent here. That's not a problem. What is a problem is your uncontrolled SA. It's what has gotten you into this mess and it's what has destroyed your BW.

Think about it. Your BW is lying on the floor bleeding from the knife you plunged into her back. You put a bandaid on it and say.."hold on honey, do you mind if I go and take care of me for a minute, I have this need". Can you begin to imagine how that felt to her? Your NEED at this point in time is actually a trigger for her.

We know and she knows that your NEED trumped hers and unless you change your thought process, it will always trump hers, no matter what the cost. This is the time you need to chain your TAKER up. If you can't do that NOW as you watch her wither on the floor so to speak, you will lose her.

If I were you I'd look into what Mulan posted. Learn a new way to cope and learn it soon.


This mentality is NOT on the road to R. You signed up for this. She didn't.

Do the work. It will get better.

OK, the help is out there and inside you...but you don't want it. You are making excuses and making life an "either/or" situation.

You go to meetings, even if you don't like it. Take what you want and leave the rest at the door. There are people there in different stages of recovery. You find a sponsor. You make the commitment to YOU. You do this for yourself.

My H has been going to meetings for about a year and STILL doesn't want to go, and STILL is resistant, and if he said he was leaving tomorrow I'd wave goodbye. I have been going to meetings for about 6 months and learning to live without the addiction.

I figure we've got another couple of years for him to recover then I'm giving up on him. He has one foot in it and the other out of it.

What I figure about you is, it's going to be another year before you start to even figure recovery is for you...it's like a SA has stages of recovery...

1. I don't have a problem
2. I may have a problem but it only is a problem for me
3. It may be a problem for other people but we can work it out together
4. I have a problem, but it's not that bad, I can work it out on my own
5. I may need help, but I will try different things to see which one works for me
6. I'm not strong enough to do this
7. I don't think I can do this, I've always been this way
8. I will get help but I will sit back and take it in
9. I see how working on my problem helps my life
10. I am taking an active role in my recovery

I actually don't know how 9 and 10 look because my H has not gotten there yet.

I would challenge your thinking as mostly lies...you CAN live without sex and you CAN live with stress (which is another word for overwhelming emotions)

You are NOT working on your relationship. As an addict you have pretty much destroyed EVERY relationship around you due to your TAKER mentality. Do not trust your thoughts of how balanced your relationships are right now...

Shame will eat you alive. And the shame and guilt within yourself are what's driving you...not love...but running form and defending against shame and guilt. So stop talking about right/wrong, good/bad, this is shamefilled talk, putting a value on things. You are a valuable person, all your choices have had an impact on you and the people around you.

Remember that if you are fighting against recovery it is your addiction fighting HARD to remain in your life. This wrestling match will take many years, an addiction does not stay down after one battle, and it will lie and manipulate you into sticking around. Your addiction has been like that obnoxious friend that talks you into doing hurtful things...for fun...

Stop whining! Sorry to judge you like that, but when you have been so hurtful to your family and you start talking about how bad you've had it...the ears don't hear it...that's why meetings are important...they'll listen.

navewife...DO NOT READ HERE, EVER! Your relationship has been fraught with overstepped boundaries. Time to respect boundaries.

I completely agree with StillHere's post.

There is help out there but you have to work *with* it.

Meetings will help, but not if you "forget" to go to them.

If you don't like what they say at the meetings, ask yourself why you don't like it.

Abstinence is a part of any addiction recovery. Sex addicts must also abstain, including abstaining from masturbation, if they want to achieve sobriety.

You think you can't live without sex the same way an alcoholic thinks he can't live without booze. The abstinence is to show you that yes you can live without sex, and once you're no longer so focused on it you will find better and healthier ways of dealing with stress - as well as learning better and healthier ways of dealing with sex once you return to it.

No one can achieve sobriety without stopping their drug. There are no two ways around it. The first step in sexual sobriety is in accepting that a period of abstinence is absolutely necessary.

NG,

You are angry.

You are angry because, for the first time in your marriage....

YOU ARE NOT FIRST.

Hard to hear that, isn't it?

Your venting post - please go back and re-read it. I want you to look at it like you are reading the post of a teenager who has been told he cannot have something he really thinks he wants or needs.

Your post sounds like an angry teenager,throwing a fit - a person who wants what he wants.......and is angry because nobody will let him have it, nobody understands him, nobody will enable him to have that thing.

And that "thing" is NOT GOOD FOR HIM.


That teenager knows it isn't good for him, but he yells anyway.



NG, your venting post also looks to me like you are wanting someone else to rescue you.

The cavalry is not coming.

YOU are the cavalry. That is one tough message to hear, but it is in fact the truth. One of the more burdensome truths of our lives is that we save ourselves first, before we can begin to be there for anyone else.

Your wife is not in any condition to save you - because....unfortunately....you dropped a nuclear bomb in her life and she is quite busy recovering herself from that attack.

Your friends are busy with their own lives. The distance they have made has nothing to do with whether or not they are "true" friends. It has much more to do with their own state of shock and dismay at your behavior, and their own inability to cope with the news. They do not know WHAT TO DO, and therefore have no idea how to help - or even if they SHOULD. You are here, with people who have lots of experience in affairs, and chances are most people here are struggling with your situation. Can you understand that your friends probably have little experience and probably no real idea as to how to "help" you? They are also probably pretty uncomfortable with the idea of an open discussion with you about this behavior of yours - so your expectation of them stepping in and helping you is unreasonable at this point. They have put in some distance because they just do not know how to deal with the situation. So they are moving along in their own lives, attempting to deal with what feelings they have about it all, on their own. Consider that YOUR behavior impacted THEM.....and maybe YOU need to HELP THEM deal with it!

NG, at this point in your life, the hard facts are that it isn't all about YOU, and that YOU are the one person who can actually save yourself.

You are asking right now, "HOW????"

The issues in your life are based in self-esteem, self-centeredness, ego-centrism. Do you see that "you" are the center of your world?

I deal with people who have difficulty with cognition and reasoning. That is my daily life, my "world". My experience in this field goes back a couple of decades, so I do have some knowledge for you.

Here is some advice - things "to do" that will help take you away from the self-directed behaviors and toward building self-esteem and other-directed behavior. In the process of doing these things, if you do them daily over the course of a couple of years, you will begin to understand and see a change within. And others - will see a real change on the outside.

1. Commit yourself to helping others. This "helping" must be a true need somewhere, not "make work". In other words, volunteer where a service is needed that you can actually fulfill a true need. For example, if you are a good carpenter, volunteer to build shelves for the schools or libraries in your area. If you have skills in basketball, go three times a week to the local Boys and Girls Club after school or in the evening and work with kids who do not have private coaches to build their skills. If you can play trumpet, volunteer at the middle school to give lessons to kids who do not have the money for after-school lessons but who want to improve their skills to make the high school band, or move up a chair in the band at middle school. If you have an outgoing personality, volunteer at the local nursing home to host a game night twice a week for the residents. If you are a great gardener, volunteer to plant and keep a rose garden at three nursing homes and the hospital in town. --- you get the idea? It becomes YOUR work, to give to others what YOU have to offer - to fill a need out there in the world that exists....that YOU can give to others to make them happy, or really help them. There are soup kitchens, people who need to exercise, people who need homes painted.......

2. Schedule daily time - ten minutes daily is all you must do - for each of your children to have "father time". This is time that you spend to catch up with each child. YOU are responsible to get the child, take him or her to a place that just the two of you have together - and share your important parts of your day's events. YOU ask about school, their friends, the BEST part of their day. YOUR JOB is to tell THEM the best thing about them that day. YES - even if it means that you tell them that the best thing is that they made you feel loved today, then that is what you tell them. It becomes their time with you, and you become the person they wait to see.....and you become IMPORTANT EVERY DAY.

3. Call your parents or your mentor or someone you look up to every day (one or the other). Report to that person about your progress - and be honest. This is to be a time when you do not vent or talk about how ANYBODY ELSE affects you. It is a time when you reflect on your own progress, and connect to them about how their lives are going - a positive time, looking FORWARD to the things you plan to do, discussion of the things you WILL DO to improve. When you talk with them, you ask for suggestions and perhaps ideas for new directions for your life, their best ideas of what you might do, and things they have done right and wrong over their own lives - so you can learn from them. Other people YOU RESPECT should be on your list of daily contacts, so you can talk to these people regularly. Yes, posting here TO LEARN and TAKE GOOD ADVICE would count - if the posting is not venting but looking to guide yourself in a positive way.

4. Reading to learn: You should embark on a self-directed program of reading to learn ways to improve yourself. This can include religious articles or books, things about sexual addiction, or marriage improvement. Anything you read that focuses you on how to improve or understand yourself and your issues would help you.

5. Time with your wife in POSITIVE support should be included. This means that you should continue to support your wife in domestic activities, child-related activities, and romantic activities that do not include the children - - - and you should take the leadership role in all of these. The job falls to you to initiate the work, and to help your family move forward in life in a POSITIVE direction. Even when you are discouraged, or upset, or desiring something for yourself, your role FIRST AND FOREMOST, is leader of your family. Take that role each and every time you feel "needy" - and use that role to remove that neediness. By stepping up to the role model plate instead of the "I need" plate, you will find that the neediness in you will evaporate quickly every time. So whenever that "I need" starts welling up in you - figure out what "the family needs" and initiate an activity RIGHT THEN. Go for a walk, pop in a video, make popcorn, plant some flowers, read a story together, get out a game..........LEAD THE FAMILY INSTEAD. Watch your neediness disappear, and with it your sense of lack of support.

Your life will change.


SB

I hope you will read and re-read schoolbus's post.

I pulled out the above quote because self-absorption is one of the big traits of addiction. Taking your focus of your own self and your own life and your own needs, and looking over at someone else and seeing what you can do for them instead, will be very helpful to you.

Addicts in treatment (all kinds of addicts) are often charged with doing volunteer work for the reasons schoolbus described above. And they often strongly object to it, especially if the work is menial in nature.

But that's because addicts rarely know the difference between "humility" and "humiliation" - to an addict, they are both the same because they don't see anyone except their own selves and their own needs (so why would someone try to "humilate" you by dragging you away from your all-consuming needs and over to somebody else's needs??)

Humility is absolutely necessary to overcoming any problem in life that is of our own making, whether it's addiction or anything else.

If you consider humility to be "humiliating" - well, you are still 100% self-absorbed and blind to anyone else.

Helping and serving others gives you a very positive feeling of being needed, and will go a long way towards filling that hole inside that you are trying to fill now with an addiction. That's why it's so important.

Just try it. It's a place to start.

What Mulan said.

SB

Sorry for the long dely, I'm breaking the cycle of P/A behavior by being honest with my BS about my thoughts and feelings.
I said I don't always get it right, but I am working on it. I had to realize that avoiding a conflict or just telling my H what he wanted to hear only compounded the problem.
If I find myself making the same mistake, I try to correct it immediately.

How are things?