I sincerely held that belief, too, for many years, that I was unable to give myself respite form the isolation I felt when my H withdrew. For me, I learned that I can give myself this respite, choose my attitude regardless of my H's or anyone else's actions or inactions. I found this went right along with my MB program, halving my H's withdrawals. This was in line with my goals.

Both of you, jayne and Gdar, have had Hs that do work with you under the right conditions. I have hope for both of you in reaching your goals

What would work for you here? What if you went to your H and asked for a hug? How about planning RC and FC time, getting it on the calendar Sundays, before the week starts? And then following through on your own by yourself or with your kids, even if your H gets bogged down with "work obligations" as the week goes on because your happiness is worth investing in? And then you can share your O&H with your H, how much fun you're having, how cool it would be if your H can join you next time. Wouldn't that make it as simple as possible for your Hs to jump in?

I think it's possible that someone who is reluctant to comfort a sad spouse would be less reluctant to join a happy spouse in fun things.

Is your H related to my H?

"All I want for date night is my two front teeth, my two front teeth, thee my two front teeth! Gee, if I could only have my two front teeth, then I could witth you "Mewwry ________ !!!"

Fill in the balnk....

I have a lot of issues within my own marriage...the largest of which is my husband's lack of helping with the FS, which has become my number one EN. I still haven't figured out if I'm my worst enemy with regard to my ongoing building resentment and anger, resulting from my busted and overdrawn love bank. While the MB concepts appear simple, sometimes applying them is complicated.

But I was also realizing that the inability to talk to my husband about this was feeding this whole cycle. I'm not necessarily pointing fingers at him; we were both perpetuating this cycle.

I don't have an easy fix, Gdar...I'm just relating my own experiences in the hope that maybe something I've learned, or found solace in doing, will help you figure out how to handle your own situation. That's one of the benefits of this forum, right?

So here's what I learned.

I already knew that when my $LB is overdrawn, I withdraw. But this weekend, I decided to change that. Someone gave me the very good advice: change your steps, changes the dance. Or something like that.

So instead of withdrawing, I initiated some great um..intimacy.

And then we had a wonderful discussion. We didn't solve the world's problems, or our problems. We didn't even make a very large dent! But I felt a lot better for having shared and having been shared with, on his part.

So I have a new pair (well, used..on sale..money is tight!) of dancing shoes and will attempt to wear them instead of my old comfy slippers.

Wow, thank you guys for the support, I really need it. I am excited for my appt with my MC this Tuesday. I have never felt manic, but I swear these ups and downs really stress me out.

Update: Husband stayed home this weekend and did not leave to go help his friend out at the festival. I know he was upset about not going, but he did not say it. I could sense it in his body language. Instead of making him feel bad for making ME feel like I was keeping from what he really wanted to be doing, I kept thanking him for every.little.thing. With a smile. Friday night we did not connect, but I don't think either one of us were ready to let go of our frustrations for letting go's sake. Saturday morning we playfully argued a bit about who was going to get up with the kids (it has been me every weekend for the past couple of months). HE initiated SF (yay!!!!!) He did it the way I like it, it did not feel like he had to try too hard (like he was doing me a favor). I did not get the connection I was looking for, but it was still enjoyable.

He arranged for our 13 year old to babysit the younger 2 so he and I could attend a retirement party that evening for a couple of hours. Then he bought my favorite bottle of wine and BBQd some ribs for dinner, so when we got home, we could have movie night in our theater room. We had SUCH a good time at the party - with each other. We are just really getting to know this group of people, and they all a decade or older than we are (H has always had issues with enjoying people's company that are the age of his parents - just how he was raised). I was assuming he would not enjoy himself that evening because of that, plus the fact he is the youngest one and the boss. I know sometimes that can be hard on him. We laughed and laughed, had great conversation. I adore his secretary and her husband, it was just a nice time.

When we got home for our date night in the theather room, we both fell asleep on each other 30 minutes into Sherlock Holmes. LOL

Sunday was the best, though. Overshare here, but we SF's 3 times and the connection WAS there. It was a lazy day with the family, but the smiles, the eye contact, the way it used to be not all that long ago was back. We were all smiles all day. We curled up to sleep all night.

This is what I need from him and it felt so great to get it. I told him several times how happy I was, how great it felt - and he feels the same way. He says "lets keep it up". That is what I want, too. For me, though, I cannot just have this once a week. I don't need a fairytale, I just need an effort to stay connected so we don't fall off track like we always do.

Jayne, may I ask - do you and your H go through the cycle, too? It will be GREAT for a while, then not so great for a while longer? I am really wanting this cycle to end.

Oh, I forgot to tell you about my tooth. Hahaaa

I think my dentist is MacGyver. He made me a temp tooth from matchsticks and some gum. It should hold me over until my my final placement in a few weeks.

I still cannot believe our puppy ate it!

Ok, so here are a few questions I have and would really appreciate some input from those of you that have overcome a similar experience.

I will be checking out Flylady again today (checked it out a couple of years ago.

One of my previous top needs was DS. I never get it on any consistent basis, and after some really great advice from Ears I ended up rearranging my priorities and I no longer pursue it as a need. It was hard at first, I had to wade through some resentment, but eventually it let up. It only really upsets me when all of my other needs are unmet and THAT is on top of it, if that makes any sense. When my needs go unmet, I tend to get pissed at everything he does/doesnt do. Working on that.

So, I am not a neat freak, I am far from having any sort of OCD. Picked up works for me, I don't need anything shiny and scrubbed. Just presentable. With a 4k sq ft house and 6 people in it, rarely is "clean". I do not like chaos and utter disorder, but more than anything, I do not enjoy picking up after people. My kids know their dishes go in the sink. My 2 year old even stands on his tippy toes and pushes his stuff in there after he eats, no joke. My husband never puts his away. It just is not important to him to have things put away or anything clean. When he invites people over, I go into a frenzy cleaning because I do not like people coming into my home when it is a mess. He only pitches in if it is a party. If it just family, a friend or two, nothing. I know this about him, I have worked really hard to be ok with it.

So, I guess my question is: since domestic stuff/house in order is not important to him, he could really care less how do we make this work better? Remember, POJA is not something H feels is possible, so that does not work. Basically it will be me needing to pick and choose my battles. If I want something cleared away, even if it his jacket thrown over the couch, his laptop bag plopped on the kitchen counter, his keys/wallet/insides of his pockets on the bathroom counter (he can never find these things when he leaves for work in the morning, because "shedding" the night before is always in a different place) it will be me that will take care of it. Or I wind up with 4 ties, 4 shirts and 2 jackets on my couch by mid-week.

I am a lot better at just doing it, I no longer get upset about it. I used to get annoyed when he would leave his sock, underwear, tshirt, pant drawers all open every single day because our kids would bonk into them (the littles) and you can see our dresser when you are near the doorway to our room. Now I just shut them. It does not bother me now.

Thing is, after so many of these that I just decide to do myself around here, the more I put on my plate, the faster I get burnt out. Team that with him being too busy with work and my needs get tossed to the wayside. I am really trying to find some balance, but we are just so different in our approach to "what matters".

G, I have no idea how that feels. But...I would stick with a Flylady routine, and put all his things in a basket when you're doing a fly-over.

And then put the basket somewhere that pleased me. Like a closet, or in the garage.

I did that for a while, suggested by Ears and Stella. Then he was getting upset with me because he could never find anything, and felt I was doing it to be hurtful. It just was not the message I was wanting to put across and it was not worth it to me to have him feel I was doing it out of spite (instead of self preservation).

Perfect time to POJA a solution. Tell him you get annoyed by his habit of throwing his things here and there, and you feel good when the house is picked up...you're willing to pick it up, but to put everything 'where it belongs' will bring resentment to you, as will 'leaving it where it lies'. Offer your solutions, and ask for his. If he says he wants one chair where he can pile his crud, let him have it...maybe ask for a regular clearing of the crud, like I do with my kitchen junk drawer--I want it left alone until I go through it, because it is my catch-all, and I will purge it once I have trouble closing it. Maybe say, "Will you clean it all off once the chair is no longer visible beneath your stuff?" lol.

I think you missed the part that POJA is not something we do - he does not feel it is possible.

I really, really feel I have tried all of the approaches. I have addressed it like this, and it will stick. For a day or two.

Gdar,

I too struggle with the lack of DS from my husband. Like yours it doesn't matter if the place is picked up when company drops over, his attitude is "well, this is a real house, and they have to expect that." lol

I've had to turn loose of some of my expectations for how things should run in order to not feel resentful. I do the basket pickup, but I put the carpola on his bedside table, or if there is no room next to his side of the bed. He does complain about people moving "his stuff", but not too often.

He does think that we should be teaching the kids how to keep a clean house, but his version of clean and mine are very different. I've recently stopped a couple of chores that I used to do, and told him about it. We don't do intense POJA, but we do discuss what things might make us feel better.

It helps me to consider what I need to make myself happy. I'm with you on the working at night thing, my husband's blackberry used to drive me insane. I even dropped it in the ocean one time, accidentally. Sorta.

Now DH has changed jobs and no longer has the blackberry (yea! Hooray!). I like the suggestion that you find things to do that you like and invite your DH to join you.

That post made me smile about the "sorta" dropping the phone in the ocean. Thanks!

Really, I have let a lot of the DS stuff go. I would rather he pay attention to me, be affection, PRESENT and communicate. Of course, these needs change up , but as long as my truly "emotional" needs are being met, I don't care if I trip on his shoe now and again.

Interesting what you say Gdar about DS. I think I am the same way. If my other needs are being met, then DS doesn't really matter. If they aren't then that gets piled on top of the list of everything else DH isn't doing.

I haven't read ALL of your thread, just the last few. Thought I'd chime in with a few ideas and see what you think.

First off - I think it's possible to implement the ideas of POJA without actually calling it POJA. You ask him what he would like to do to resolve the issue. If, like he did in the past, he agrees to something and it lasts two days bring it up again and say you agreed to this a few days ago. It isn't working. Is there another way you'd like to solve this? And keep at it until you find a solution that works.

Also, it seems most men have their 'clean' filter set way higher than most women. When I go into the kitchen I see a floor that needs to be mopped, a fridge that needs to be emptied, a dishwasher full of dishes that need to be put away, and a stove top that needs some cleaning. My husband sees a clean counter, no dishes in the sink and a walkable floor - the kitchen is clean in his eyes, a wreck in mine.

What has helped for us is specific, thoughtful requests. I don't know if you've read the LB book but there is a world of difference between a Selfish Demand and a Thoughtful Request. If I phrase what it is I need, very specifically I often get it. i.e. "Could you put up the dishes in the dishwasher for me, please." as opposed to "The kitchen is such a wreck the dishes need to be put up before I even start cooking."

We have a tradition of Saturday morning chores. I'll usually present a list of things I'd like to get done to DH like, I need to do 3 loads of laundry, clean the kitchen, vacuum and tidy the bathroom. Would you be willing to help me with some of those? And he'll tell me which ones he'd like to do. Or he'll tell me if he had other plans for that morning, like mowing the yard or working on homework. See he has the option of not doing any of those. There have been weekends when he says "I'm just too overloaded I need Saturday to relax." and I accept that and plan my chores accordingly. Perhaps the bathroom can wait, and maybe I can get away with just one load of laundry.

If I phrase the request thoughtfully, fully ok with my full chores list not getting done, I'm more likely to have a willing participant when I clean the house and it can turn into UA time for us.

Finally, it seems little, but appreciation goes a LONG way along with a little bit of Radical Honesty. Like "It really bothers me when you leave your clothes right there." or "It really bugs me that sometimes your koolaid jug drips red koolaid onto the counter - it is very hard to clean." Then when I notice him NOT putting his clothes in that spot, or cleaning up the drops of koolaid I make a point to thank him specifically. "Thank you for not putting your clothes there, I really appreciate it." or "I noticed you cleaned up the drops of Koolaid, thanks so much." We make gratitude a constant habit in our home.

I'd say we thank each other for things half a dozen times each day. Thanks for cooking dinner, thanks for taking out the trash, thanks for getting up with the baby, thanks for throwing away your napkin. It creates a desire to help, because we know our help doesn't go unnoticed. It's easy to think "why bother, no one will notice"

Way opposite in my house! lol. If the counters are clear and the sink is empty, it's GREAT. My H nitpicks the insides of the cabinet doors and underneath the fridge.

Just so ya'll know, Steve Harley recommends that each spouse make a list of the housework duties that are important to them to be done, and then that person DOES THEM. I love me some SH.

Yes. Yesyesyesyesyes.

I'm due for an update on my thread. I've got a lot to do today but I'll try to update later on today.

POJA needs to be married to FGSN. (Dr. Harley actually uses that acronym in Effective Marriage Counseling, but we don't seem to use it here.) Anyone can decide on their own to stop doing things their spouse isn't enthusiastic about, though of course you can't make your spouse reciprocate. But you can do more than just that one-sided decision to follow POJA: you can try bits and pieces, or maybe the whole of, FGSN. Without using any acronyms on your spouse at all, actually.

I am having the same issue with the workahoic husband.
I have been talking to Steve Harley and the first thing he said for us to do is figure out what our goal for our marriage is. If you can't agree, then you can't work together to reach it. You could ask your husbnd if he agrees that the ideal scenario would be for the parents of his children to be in love with each other. If he says yes, then say that talking to Steve can help figure out a plan for couples like you.
I am starting down this path and my DH has talked to Steve twice now and we are going to work on our marriage goal. Hopefully then that will get my DH to realize that he can't prioritze work over his marriage and family if he wants to reach that goal.

See, we looked at that section and hubby thought it was funny. He wouldn't have anything on his list. LOL

I have a counseling session this afternoon. I have never been to one before (outside of MC) and I am nervous. I feel so manic, though. Last week I was in bad shape, feeling reaaly low and this week I feel great. H has kept it up for almost 5 days now, meeting my needs. I am not sure what to expect. I had a list in my head of things I would like to talk about, but afraid that when I get there, I will forget a bunch.