How did church go?

Meh, Im tough.

As far as what you get if he doesn't do as you want, well you get the pleasure of knowing you did your best and didn't resort to wallowing in pointless resentment
However I am liken unto the fairy of optimism and hope, and I think ..... what if he did!

jayne241, just bumping this. Hope Easter worked out well for you.

Ok, enough procrastinating, or figuring out exactly what it is I wanna say or ask. I'm just gonna do this. (By "do this" I mean post to my thread; I don't mean I've decided to do anything in particular relationship-wise; I'm asking for advice.)

I think when I last posted, it was right before Mother's Day Sunday. (Pssst, Retread, thanks for elevating Mother's Day up to Easter status! lol)

It went extremely well. H got the kids up and got them ready, even dressed in *nice* clothes. (Usually when we're going someplace where *I* would want them dressed in their nicest clothes, even if it's just nice blue jeans and a nice non-t-shirt, he dresses them in their holeyest... as in most holey, the most holes, jeans and the most worn t-shirt. But this time he even had them in corduroy pants my mom bought them!) And they were even in the car waiting for me. Yay!

On the way there I thanked him for that, and pointed out that we were yet again going to be 10 minutes late and this time I certainly could not blame it on him.

And then, even though we were 10 minutes late, we WEREN'T late!!! What a great idea for Mother's Day!!! (To start fashionably late.)

The rest of the day went well too.

He went out of town the Tuesday after Mother's Day, for work. The night before he left, which was the night after Mother's Day, he even asked me how I was feeling, he said I looked like I was "down" or something. I thought I was being pretty upbeat, although I was feeling resentment over his lack of talking. But anyway, the fact that he was asking about my *feelings* really touched me, and I asked if we could talk about it, UA-style, after the kids went to bed.

The evening wore on and I started to lsoe hope that he would actually talk. When he was ready for bed, he came over to talk, UA-style. That really meant a LOT to me, and I teared up. I told him how much I needed conversation and UA. I told him that when he couldn't even give me 5 minutes of UA an evening, that I felt like he valued everything else more than me and our M. He agreed to "try" to talk to me every night, UA-style, 5 minutes at least.

(Does that sound pitiful? )

I repeated his agreement to clarify, that by "try" he meant we'd do it "most nights" as in more often than not.

The next day (Tuesday) he went out of town, returning Friday. So the "agreement" was sort of put on hold; he could've talked on the phone, but he was in a different time zone and each night he said he was to tired to say more than just good night. I was pretty much ok with that, I was still on a "high" from his agreement to "try" to talk, actually *talk* UA-style, "most" nights.

He got back Friday and was too tired from his trip to talk. I think the next night he was also too tired. I think it was Sunday, May 16, before we "talked" again. (I'm not counting things like discussing who's gonna pick up the kids when, what's for dinner, paying bills, etc. Sorry, task-oriented convos don't meet my EN for Convo.)

He claims we talked two nights, so maybe Saturday and Sunday. Or maybe Sunday and Monday.

But then *nothing*. By Friday I was disappointed and resentful and bitter that I'd "fallen" for it, for him saying yet again "I'll try" and then not following through. I started feeling really depressed.

Friday something happened work-related that also got me a bit upset, and that evening I told him I was depressed and could I talk to him about it. He said he was too tired. He'd spent the evening working on the computer, and when he got off the computer, he wanted to go straight to sleep. Since I knew he was planning on getting up extra early to exercise, I felt like he valued that more than talking to me. What I wanted to say wouldn't even have taken 5 minutes.

Saturday I'd waited around a lot of times in the afternoon to spend time with him, and he'd pretty much ignored me. By evening I was *really* feeling horrible, and truly in a spiraling depression. I couldn't stop crying. At dinner H made a comment about how I was miserable and was just trying to make everyone else miserable. I went into the bathroom and was crying, and he didn't even bother to check on me. He just went downstairs to sleep.

(Also that weekend I found out, after shivering and freezing and even using a hair dryer under the covers to get warm, that he'd turned the thermostat down 3 degrees below what we'd "POJA'ed" which was already just on the verge of what I could tolerate. When he turns it down that far, my back and legs ache from scrunching up trying to keep warm, and my sinuses hurt from breathing the cold air.)

Sunday I got up and got ready for church, and got the kids ready. He just went downstairs, and we went to church without him. I took the kids out to eat afterward, and we had a good time, and I started feeling a little better (as in, not as uncontrollably sad; not better about my M). Then that afternoon I went to dog training, and got some RC and Conversation there, and felt even better (just not about my M). But I felt ok enough to not be tearing up every 5 minutes at least.

So. I'm not sure where the proper balance is. I could try to adopt a "loving detachment" but how would that differ from withdrawal, which is what I feel like. How do I muster the "loving" part of "loving detachment" when I don't feel loving.

Also, where is the proper balance between not having "expectations" (which are planned resentments, or something) vs. *raising* the bar for your spouse vs. lowering it? He agreed to talk "most nights", was I wrong to "expect" it to happen more than 2 or 3 nights out of 16? To not expect it, wouldn't that be a DJ, to tell myself to not expect him to keep his commitment? Even if I logically tell myself to not expect either way, to not predict he'd do it or not do it, how do I deal with my *feelings*? I am going to feel bad when he breaks his promise, unless I foster an attitude of... withdrawal? detachment?

Reading the LB book, I can see how I've committed a ton of SDs, DJs and AOs in our M and maybe I'm still paying the price for past ones, and also for more recent occasional slips. I guess my wanting to have 5 minutes a night of Conversation is an SD, and I guess it's a DJ for me to think that "it's the right thing to do, so he should do that for me." But do I now tell him I understand that he really doesn't want to do that, and so I'm letting him off the hook? I suppose the textbook answer is to POJA a solution, but what to do when H doesn't want to discuss anything at all? What to do when I've already numerous times told him I'm committed to doing better, would he join me and also try? How to POJA something when H doesn't want to even talk about it, and when at this point I don't *want* to find a solution that will allow him to meet my needs?

If Dishonesty is an LB, then I'm supposed to let him know how I feel. But this is already a well-worn path. I'm worn out.

Now what?

Jayne. Get.Out.Of.My.Head. I could have written this post, verbatim. Wow. Can I give you a hug? Here is a hug!!

You are not asking for too much in general. Whether it is too much for him is up to him.

Tell him what you told us. You need 10 minutes of UA time for Conversation 5 times per week. If he is "too tired" most nights, then he needs to rearrange his schedule to make time earlier in the day. If he is unwilling to redo his schedule to create 25 - 50 minutes per week of UA time, you will take that as evidence he doesn't give a darn about your feelings. And he can expect you will continue to be unhappy.

Of course, you will say that in a nicer manner. Ask him if he wants a happy wife and a happy marriage. Ask him if there is any way he can be enthusiastic about giving you 25 - 50 minutes per week. Ask what you can do to help him be enthusiastic.

That doesn't mean he has to change his schedule. Just means he can expect you to be unhappy until he does.

Another question. Ears, I think you mentioned that I could plan something fun to do, and when the time came to do it, if H didn't want to come, then I could just take the kids and have a good time without him. That it would be his choice and if he chose to not come along, that I should go ahead and have a good time anyway. I guess that would help if I was needing RC or FC? But what if what I need is Conversation and UA? That isn't something that could be met by my kids, or at least I think it would be wrong to try to get them to meet those ENs.

Also, I'm trying to find the balance between allowing myself to go back to being cheerful around him, vs. forgetting to keep up defenses so I don't "fall" for expectations again. Besides, if I go back to being cheerful around him, he will just be reinforced in his belief that any time I'm upset it's just a problem with me, and if he waits long enough and ignores it, I will "get over it." Well, I'm not "over it" even if I'm trying to not mope around constantly. I still feel hurt that he won't even spend 5 minutes a night talking to me, and that he didn't care enough to check on me when I was crying.

I told him that I didn't want to give him that impression even if I was able to get a grip on my crying, and to stop moping around. I told him that I don't want him to think that he can just ignore me and think I'll "get over it" and everything will be ok. That damage was done, even if I don't forever mope around afterwards; and that the only way the damage would be undone would be by talking (or maybe I said it would take work to undo the damage) and that I predict he won't be willing to do that.

And I was right, he hasn't approached me to talk about *that* ever since, either. Whether you want to call that self-fulfilling prophecy, or DJing, or expectations, I dunno.

I am determined to keep trying at least until his next B-day. I am determined to keep trying at least until his next B-day. I am determined to keep trying at least until his next B-day.

(That reminds me, I need to update my sig.)

What happens then, I'm not sure.

Gdar, *HUGS*.

Hold, how do I say that in a nicer way? Do I have to say it without tearing up? Can I just print out what you wrote and hand it to him?

Y'all wanna help me figure out exactly what to say?

Oh yes, when I said the bit about not thinking he can just ignore me and I'll "get over it" and damage being done, he just said "I'm sorry I can't make you happy."

What do I say to that?

Hey, this place looks familiar...

:::looking around at Jayner's thread:::

I'm having Deja Vu, I think.

And so are you.

You guys didn't really POJA the five minutes of UA-Conversation per night. You POJA'd the idea.

Not the execution.

To practice an action into a habit, especially one that from actions that you fear him not doing, and him fearing doing...you gotta POJA the details...

Five minutes of eye-to-eye talking face time. Limited with an egg timer, on the sofa, in the den, holding hands, even if we have to tape our eyelids open...every night you're not away working, at 10pm exactly.

And the what ifs...

What if we don't...we get distracted, something occurs, you would resent me if you did it one night...

then it's 10 minutes the next night. What if we miss two days in a row because you would resent...

then we need to talk about a really healthy separation. Because this is crumbs...and our marriage is in crisis.

Seriously...shocked at me?

ROFL...you've been here, been doing this, for ages.

He knows he stabs you when he is "too tired"...and that you add to that pain by saying "He puts other stuff ahead of me"...

No.

He doesn't do this act of love, doesn't make himself do...and KNOWS you hurt.

That's it...no further. He knows what he's not doing and how much you need it and how much it matters to the marriage.

He knows.

Respect him more, 'k? I know your boys need an intact whole family...and your H is fully capable of that. He can really rise to the occasion...and create this new habit.

Five minutes is pittance and wrong, Jayne. He can come up with a plan to do the right thing...instead of attacking the marriage.

Just like you know it's half on you to develop the habit for yourself...where you sit in the spot at 10pm, stay aware...and do not say that "being too tired" is okay.

It isn't.

Men think being too tired is a feeling...they disclose their physical feelings instead of feelings, IME. Don't buy into it.

Acknowledge. "I hear you feel very tired right now" and make that the start of the five minutes...hit the timer..."That's good to know."

Do it, anyway.

Know the consequences to your marriage are more dire than you are telling yourself...your lies to yourself are part of the crisis...as well as you not doing and him not doing.

And it's undoing your love bank...this bait and switch has to end...you're both bigger than this and you know it.

He's capable. He can do a lot...and if he fears falling asleep while you're talking (can be a big fear and seen as a bigger rejection than not talking)...say you're willing to take that chance and how 'bout we stand for the five minutes, still holding hands, at 10pm, in the den, by the sofa but not on it?

Listening and sharing with you is NOT an LB, Jayners.

It's not maintenance (like scrubbing emotional toilets)...

and his making you his unsafe zone, an EN into an SD isn't loving, right or honorable.

This is crumbs...and be honest...tell him you know it's crumbs...the minimum necessary for you to stay in this marriage, living together...and it's legitimate...a deal breaker...to not do it two days in a row.

However...if you want to POJA two hours, every Saturday, instead of five minutes a night...you're willing to work out those details with him. Still is a habit to be created...and if he's afraid of five minutes a night leading to 15 hours a week, eventually, conversating while RC'ng...dating...then he's right.

Address his future fear as a future fear. Don't know how we'll feel until we get there. You care about his experience...hence, the limited time. His care for your experience comes and goes...he still cares for you.

LA

ps - I interpreted that to mean, he's given up on even trying to "make me happy". That he thinks it's an impossible task. That he thinks what I'm asking is unrealistic probably.

He told our previous MC that he thought I was asking for more Conversation than most wives ask for. The MC told him in no uncertain terms that I was average in what I wanted and was trying to settle for less-than-average and he wasn't even giving that.

"I'm sorry I can't make you happy."

"I know you're sorry you don't choose to act out of your love for me."

Simple...stop...move away and back...smile...touch (even if you don't feel like it)...because it's an act of love...

not a reaction to your feelings.

And poof...you'll get your five minutes. Steal it...take it...

LA

He was walking away while he said that, though. I'd have had to chase him through the living room to say it.

(That's why drive-by honesty works best for me! lol)

Ok y'all... I hear you encouraging me to talk to him about this. That would be my natural inclination, of course.

He seems to have an aversion to talking. I think it's partly just his nature. But I wonder if it's partly due to my SDs, DJs and AOs earlier in our M. If so, then should I be trying to "make it up to him" now to regain his trust, before trying to get him to talk again?

Another consideration: we have a work-related trip coming up in a couple weeks, to a foreign country, so that will be a lot of time together and a great opportunity for RC. (Maybe even Conv. and UA, but not so much since there will be a lot of activity going on.)

Should I *not* talk to him, and instead keep things "pleasant" before and during the trip?

I'm at least halfway tempted again to "Plan-A" him so he'll be surprised and miss me when I leave. Except I doubt I'll ever actually leave him just because he doesn't talk to me.

Woman! You are IN my head still! LOL I am needing/asking the same thing, cuz I am fresh outta ideas on how to communicate what I am asking/needing in a way that works for both of us. It is HARD.

Yep! Even down to the "should I hang on another few weeks until the chaos dies down!"

You do not view this reply as passive-aggressive? I feel if I say this to him (because he also says to me "I am sorry I cannot make you happy"), he will roll his eyes or make fun of me. Yes, a DJ, but I also know him.

I interpret LA's advice over the years to be "when you don't know how to say what you mean, narrate". Don't plan, plot, analyze, etc. Just narrate. Repeat what you just heard. Say how you feel when you hear it. Let your partner react to what you heard and how you feel.

Wierd, but that is the advice I once heard a porn star give during an interview. She said "when I started in the biz, I didn't know what to say during a scene. A director told me to just say what we are doing."

Same problem. Overthinking what to say "in the moment". Same advice. Just narrate what is happening. Repeat what you heard the other person say. Say how you feel. Short statements like "thank you for sharing your thoughts" or "good to know" or "that can't feel good" or "ouch" can fill silences.

Don't rehearse monologues (aside: that is my big problem - overthinking and overplanning). Rehease opening lines. Think of it like pickup lines. "You spend alot of time at the gym working on your arms, legs and core. How about we give your ears, tongue and lips a workout too?"

I too thought "I know you are sorry" sounded vaguely condescending and is likely a DJ.

I prefer something like "Oh, I know you CAN make me happy. Whether you choose to do so is up to you."

Sorry to T/J, Jayne! You and me... we are looking for the same things....

Holding, I like that idea. I think that is something I might be able to do!

Examples?