Jayne, how about this:

"So, how would you feel about my using my half of the tax return for a weekend at X, no kids, no interruptions and maybe some "fce to face" (get it? get it?) time"?

So you are stating that you would be interested in A) spending the tax return B) spending time with him C) spending time talking to him (hence the "face to face") and D) SF, because the way you are going to say "face to face" to HIM, might very well sound like you want SF.

Voila! Needs met all over the dang place!

Gdar, that's assuming that money is split. In our house, we knew what our refund was going to be, and POJA'd what to do with it. He ended up not doing his end of POJA, but since we'd already POJA'd the even split, I did what I intended to with mine and even though he tried to tap it, I stuck with the original agreement.

If there's not a POJA on splitting the income, then that, imho, should come first.

The reason I posed it that way, was because she did address in her previous post "her half" of the tax return and he said he didnt want to talk about it.

Here: Like last night. He was busy on the computer right up until he started getting ready for bed. I tried a lighthearted comment in the tasks/chores/finances arena, not emotions or relationships etc. I said, with a smile (although he wasn't looking so he wouldn't have known), "So, what shall we do with our tax refund?" (unexpected refund that just arrived) Him: "It's in the savings account for now." Me: (still with a smile) "Well, can I do whatever I want with my half?" Him: (tired and NOT smiling) "I don't wanna talk about it right now."

Yes, I am not assuming we'll split it 50-50, in fact that idea hadn't occurred to me until yesterday. We pretty much don't split our finances at all, everything has gone into the same pot ever since we sold our separate houses (His and Hers, we each had a house when his work meant he lived elsewhere). So my asking about "my half" was said kinda tongue-in-cheek, which is how I interpret your suggestion - said in a flirty manner, of course spending it that way would only happen if he was enthusiastic!

Although yesterday *two* different investment opportunities presented themselves, which is why I originally thought of asking if we could split it 50-50. (Don't ask what one of those ops is...) But I'd prolly end up preferring to put it toward the mortgage. I really like the idea of paying extra on the principle especially early in the loan period. I'm a cheapskate, and would love to be debt-free...

H just now said he'd like to fix our shower door with the money. One of the glass panels broke several months ago. He wants to install a totally different shower door system instead of just replacing the one panel, because he wants a taller one. We'll see.

(By "we'll see" I mean, I'm not sure how I feel about it. I didn't mean, "we'll just see about that!")

Ok guys, I'm having a real hard time restraining from talking until after I've developed a plan here with y'all...

I've just now finished reading most of the LB book. I read all the chapters up to and including IB, but once I got to IB it was hard to read each sentence carefully without skipping ahead, because that's the LB that H does most. I pretty much gobbled down the reading as fast as possible because I wanted to hurry up and see what was next, and next, and next. Then I did the same for chs. 9 and 10, and read parts of 11-13, so I want to go back and re-read those chapters more carefully.

But anyway, after reading most of the book, I am thinking that I need to make sure H feels "safe" in our negotiations. Also, I'm struck by the emphasis on "pleasantness." (Hmm, I wonder if I should be posting this on the LB book thread? But I never was on the same chapter they were, and now I'm not sure where they are.)

Anyway, I thought saying "keep it pleasant" just meant, don't make it *too* unpleasant. But no, Dr.H says to actually have a smile on your face. That's REAL hard for me to do when I'm upset. So the book says to wait until you *can* have the discussion without any SDs, DJs, or AOs. I guess maybe the implication is also to wait until you can achieve "pleasantness", including a smile. What do y'all think?

I think right now I might be able to achieve that. And what I'm tempted to say is that I would like to try POJA on a couple of things that he would prolly be most open to POJAing: his agreement to talk to me for 5 minutes UA "most nights", and going to church. I would say that I think he wasn't really enthusiastic about agreeing to talk most nights, and I want to release him from that commitment until we can come to an agreement that he IS enthusiastic about. I'd rather that be off the table than be hoping and expecting, only to be disappointed. I'd also rather him not feel an aversion, and not feel like he has to purposefully avoid me at all costs in the evening for fear that he might get trapped into actually conversing for 5 minutes. Similarly for going to church.

Possible bad results of saying those things:

(1) He may say wonderful things and I'll feel all warm and fuzzy again for a week or two only to end up more disappointed than ever, and end up upset, thereby blowing my "cover" of being all pleasant and Plan-A-ish.

(2) That much talking might be an LB, even if I think I'm offering him something he'd like and I'm careful to not LB. Sure, DrH says Honesty is never an LB (as long as you make sure you aren't disguising SDs, DJs or AOs) but I think he meant that it isn't an LB even if it hurts your spouse to hear something that you've been hiding from them. But what if your spouse thinks of the actual communication as being an LB, just because it's a communication? Then that would go against my resolve to not LB.

(3) He might be reinforced in his belief that my being upset last weekend was just a "mood", since here I am trying to offer him something nice and accommodating.

(4) ...???

Any thoughts?

Jayne, Jayne, Jayne. My head is too full with my thoughts AND yours. Ouch! 1, 2, 3 and 4 I am asking, too. LOL Having it all discounted to a "mood" is so very hurtful and insulting, is it not? No matter how we approach these things, it always goes back to that. Too good of a mood = "what do you want that I don't want to do for you" and not a good mood is "I am not doing anything to contribute to this, you are just pre-menstrual, emotional", etc... right?

Suuuuuuuuuuuucks.

Yes, I dunno the solution to that. I don't want to stay in a bad mood the rest of my life just to show him that it wasn't a "passing mood"... rofl

But, another thing that really strikes me from the LB book is that we are NOT to return LBs with LBs. I'm getting sleepy, and I think I'm not phrasing this right... but there's a section in there talking about how to change your feelings of anger into feeling more calm, in spite of your spouse's AO, SD, AH, etc.

Hmmm. Now I'm all confused. Later on in the book, I think in the AH chapter or mayb the IB chapter, he tells the offending spouse that they can't expect their spouse to change how they feel about an AH or IB. But in the Anger chapter, he tells the offending spouse that they SHOULD learn to change their feelings of anger. Not just to control how they act on that anger, but to actually calm themselves down. That with repeated effort, different neural pathways will be developed... or did I read that somewhere else? All that makes sense to me, but wouldn't it also mean that a spouse *could* learn to feel less annoyed at a particular AH, if it was one that was really ingrained?

I'm thinking of the H who slouched in his favorite chair watching tv after work. His W wanted him to sit up straight while relaxing and watching tv. Now, I'm not in that M and so I don't have a vote in how they solve their own problems, but IMVHO (really, I'm saying in my *very* *humble* opinion, I may be wrong, just thinking out loud here) it seems a bit much to not let someone sit in a relaxed fashion after work, and to want them to sit up straight while watching tv.

Me, I usually lay down on the couch! But we watch less than 5 hours of tv a week, nowadays. H doesn't like tv hardly at all. At most, he'd agree to watching a rented movie every 2 or 3 weeks. We haven't even done that in months.

I'm rambling. It's getting late. I'll catch up on reading your thread (I saw something about you trying to get a babysitter, good luck with that!!!) and the LB book club thread, prolly not till tomorrow though.

Jayne, you are sleepy. I can tell. Get some rest. I would love for you to help me with my current sitch, as well.

I hear you. I don't want to have my moods being used as an excuse for H's behavior, either. I feel, you feel, that we have given them the tools to make things better, while we clean up our sides of the street. So, say our sides are all nice and clear, and the other side is still undergoing construction? How long does that take and how long do we wait with smiles plastered on our faces?

You woke me up with puppy pics!!!!

I had to look up tracking/trailing, but Jayne, I loved this visual, thanks! Good for you for reading the Love Busters book! I can see it has a lot of new stuff mine didn't have, like the deciding not to let anger rile you up anymore. Anger's a signal. ABC doesn't work for me. Okay, you got the signal, you share it, like "Ouch! That hurt!" or whatever, and then you calm down and move forward together, trusting that this person didn't do this to harm you, and armed with this new information, they'll have the information they need to make a different choice next time.

For me, I used to stay mad because I felt like I had no "teeth." For example, back when I first got to MB, my H would go out drinking with his buddy, and didn't tell me where he would be or when he'd be home, and then would get home at like 3am. I didn't sleep well, because I was worried he'd get into an accident driving home drunk, and I didn't know when that would be. So I called, just to hear that he was okay, but he wouldn't pick up the cell. I would feel worried, and angry, and disrespected, and expressed that the next day. But on some level I knew that my pain meant *nothing* to him, so it kind of felt like this anger hadn't done it's job yet, it's communication, so I was still feeling that signal.

But at that point, my residual anger was doing nothing to change my situation, only making my feelings feel distorted. So better for me to calm down, so I can look at it rationally, how can I stop my pain here? I could remind myself I was working a plan that has been proven to restore love to marriages, and I'm not stuck with this behavior forever. That these tools have helped many others get through these same temporary problems successfully. And this plan doesn't work by holding on to pain, it's a plan of action, having joyful days together, us two, and the kids.

Thinking of the couple with the TV, once he was sitting straight, maybe it's not as relaxing as it used to be, so they think of some other things that are more relaxing that they both like, maybe like you said, laying on the couch, LOL, I don't know!

It's funny, though, the example sounded totally ridiculous to me when I read it. But then I'm thinking, DD14 does her homework slumped on the couch, and she gets it done, but it does annoy me sometimes that she doesn't do her homework "sitting up straight" at the dining room table. Kind of silly, huh?! So I guess I can see a silly thing like that bugging someone.

Little bit of a t/j here...sorry Jayne.

NED...my son does his homework w/ his music blasting. He is in his own room or my home office, so the music isn't bothering anyone. He is on the honor roll. But this drives H nuts. He says that there is no way that he (H) would have been able to study that way. So he is insisting son turn off the music. Now I can (and did ) study that way, so I'm ok with it. But I've tried to stay out of it, let H and son work it out. However, at some point H pulls out the "I'm the parent, do it my way" card and then resentment just boils over with son. If I try to explain that son's grades are good, etc., then "I'm not on H's team".

These scenario is indicative of a TON of similar scenarios in my house.

Is the "control" thing just the other side of IB? (to bring it back around a bit to Jayne's sitch)

Sounds like your son is old enough to learn how to negotiate his annoying behavior. He doesn't have to turn the music totally off, just turn it down. Sooner or later, he is going to be in a college dorm or an apartment where he will have to turn it down, so he needs to learn about being considerate right now.

The music isn't what drives my husband nuts. In fact, often, my son will listen with headphones. It's the fact that he's not studying the way my husband preferred to study....in a totally quiet room.

Hey, just popping in for a minute, and this reminded me of something I read a long time ago. I don't know if it's true, but I once read that when ppl are younger, that something like music (even loud music) playing in the background can actually *help* concentration, but as we get older, background noise becomes a hindrance to concentration.

I can attest to this. When I was younger, it was *easier* for me to sit still and study if there was music or tv going. Nowadays, however, I turn down the car radio when I'm looking for a turn! lol

So maybe your H had different study habits, or maybe *his* parents insisted that he study that way, or maybe he just doesn't remember how he felt when he was a kid and just can't understand *now* how your son could possibly concentrate.

ETA: Oooh, I have precisely 4545 posts! Anybody else remember that song, "In the year 2525"? In The Year 2525

I guess I'll just hafta keep editing old posts until I'm ready to have 4546 posts...

ETA: Yes Neddie, I KWYM about feeling the emotion of anger but not having "teeth" to enforce something. It's a complicated and delicate balance, I think. In some cases, the spouse is content and it's the unhappy spouse who must provide some sort of motivation... and if the happy spouse is already content, then trying ever harder to meet their ENs and appealing to their sense of fairness often doesn't work. I think that's the sitch a lot of us are sometimes in.

ETA: (I'm having fun not adding to my post count, so I hope you look up and see this edit!) No, I didn't think you were telling me to do that. I'm just discussing it on a theoretical basis right now, trying to figure out the different nuances and find the balance...

OH, I can relate, I have permanent hearing loss, I found out when I applied to work for the government, I didn't even realize it, and I didn't even crank the music very often at all. So when my little brothers and sister (now grownups) cranked their music, I was sad, because I know what they're doing to themselves. http://www.asha.org/public/hearing/disorders/noise.htm

So I guess you can call it control, but I think Dr. H referred to it as something more like letting each person's wisdom overcome the other's foolishness. Not that I'm saying that your son is foolish, just saying that using a thoughtful volume makes sense when you live with folks who can't tolerate the volume.

Jayne, girl, do you think I'm encouraging you to meet ENS and appeal to his sense because I think that's what it takes to motivate your H? I'm not. I was encouraging you to let go of the residual anger because if you read in your thread, what it takes to motivate your H is for you to find some inner happiness and peace. I think he's responded every time so far, right? I like the floating happiness you post with in the good times

Hi Neddie, I wrote a little ETA note above, in reply to your post. Silly me was enjoying my post count number for a little bit and didn't wanna add to it! Yes you're right, he responds great to me being happy and cheerful and content.

But not to me asking for something he doesn't want to do, like talk. So I'm wondering if I'm doing it as an SD.

Things have been really pleasant and nice between us lately. I've got a temporary grip on my intense sadness and despair of him ever really talking to me, and am able to be cheerful enough around him, and so he's happy.

So Im thinking tonight might be a good time to tell him the things I mentioned above: to offer to re-POJA the 5-minute UA talk in the evenings (he hasn't done it since those 2, maybe 3, times I mentioned before) and going to church (I'm pretty sure he feels resentful about that). I'm thinking both of those are things he *doesn't* want to do, and so my offering to reconsider them lets him off the hook. I may say something like (this hasn't been finessed yet: "I get the impression that you don't really want to do the 5 minutes of conversation "most nights", since you've only done it 3 times in (21?) days. I am letting you off the hook for that. I've communicated how much I need it, and I'm going to respect that you heard me and can make your own choice."

How does that sound? I haven't figured out exactly how to say it, that's just a start.

Any advice guys? I'm gonna be AFK for a bit, but I'll check back later to see if anyone has any good advice on how to approach a discussion tonight.

jayne, how are you guys on 15 hours?

Jayne, I hear you that the Sunday church together is optional, so yes, that's a great thing to communicate. But I think the letting go on the conversation need is going to be super hard unless you're at the same time "getting your ducks in a row." You two used to counsel with SH, what ever happened with that? Do you the think the MB Online weekend would be appropriate to where you to are, someone on the outside guidiung you? I know for me, it was inappropriate for me to be the "steerer," I look at the folks who've succeeded in restoring the love in their marriage, and continue growing their love years later, like LA, and they had outside "steering" over a period of time.