First order of business, I need to figure out how to say what I want to say. I feel I have to say it now, I can't go without speaking up much longer. Things were going pretty good (with me not speaking up but as far as he was concerned things were wonderful) and last night he even suggested we watch a movie after the kdis went to bed. Finally watched X-Files, the DVD I gave him a long time ago. It used to be his favorite tv show back when he watched tv.

Then we went to bed and he asked for SF and it was good.

This morning I was talking about something I need to do today, everything was pleasant, but I mentioned one thing that he had done that had irritated me. He immediately clammed up. I said something or asked him something and he said something about not being blamed for something that isn't his fault. So I clarified why I was complaining - which action of his that I had wished he hadn't done. I was still trying to be nice, and not DJ. He clammed up. I then said that when he clams up like that, that my frustration level increases exponentially, and that I can go from happy to sad in 60 seconds when he does that.

I dunno, I didn't have time to plan out what I was saying, so I hope all that came out ok.

But anyway, I think now is the time for me to say what I want to say. Something like the following:

<I need an opening sentence or two - how to ask him for a few minutes of his time without him going into clam-up mode, and how to establish the ground rules for respectful negotiation (do I just do it, or do I tell him that I'm trying to not LB? What if he laughs at me?).>

Then: (here's one possible version. I'm trying to just stick to the facts as much as possible, to avoid DJs etc. Does this sound too legalistic i.e. antagonistic?)

"The night before you went to DC, you agreed to "try" to have 5 minutes of conversation, "most nights". That was May 10. Since then, we've only had such a conversation either 2 or 3 times, including the one May 10. So only once or twice after you got back from DC on May 14.

This leads me to feel like you don't really want to talk to me. Rather than hoping and being disappointed, I'd rather just take it off the table, release you from your promise. That doesn't mean I suddenly won't have that need. I still have that need. Having SF does not meet that need. Watching a movie once a year does not meet that need. Discussing chores or tasks or finances or childcare doesn't meet that need. But I can't force you to meet that need, and I don't want to force you. I don't want to gain at your defense.

If you are unwilling to meet that need, that is your choice. The consequence is that I will be unhappy. Even if I'm not moping around or acting angry or giving you the silent treatment, I am still unhappy and have a huge gaping hole where my need is not being met.

I rarely ever turn you down for SF. It hurts me to think that you turn down my request for Conversation.

I don't want to force or manipulate you into meeting my need, so I won't intentionally mope around. I will act pleasant and cheerful, as much as I can, for as long as I can. I still think that you assume that means I'm all fine with things again.

The only thing that will make me fine again at this point is you sitting down in front of me and saying you are willing to talk to me about whatever I want to talk about. Specifically saying that. Don't assume that just because we discuss what to have for dinner that I'm feeling good about things."

Ok. I don't know whether to say all of that, or just part of it.

I'm also tempted to start off by saying I've read the LB book, and I'm really trying to not SD or DJ or AO, and I want him to feel safe from my SDs etc.

I'm also tempted to print out what I want to say, and use it to refer to when I talk to him - Im thinking of sort of reading it to him, but that doesn't sound right - more like going over it with him, and then leaving it with him. That's because I wonder if I just say it verbally, maybe he won't remember all that I say. Or maybe he'll misremember. But if I just hand it to him, I'm afraid he'll just glance at it. I'm thinking maybe of leaving it and the LB book with him. I could say the LB book has some questionnaires that would help me understand what he considers SDs etc, if he'd fill them out for me. So it isn't so much like I'm telling him to read the book because of all the things I think are wrong with *him*.

Any thoughts?

ps - the MB Weekend won't work if he won't participate.

jayne, how about simply re-negotiating the original deal?

"I'm finding that I'm not satisfied with our commitment to try to have 5 minutes of conversation most nights. I thought it would work for me, but it's too vague and, frankly, it's just not happening. That leaves me unhappy. So how about we negotiate for something else? In a perfect world, I'd like one-hour conversations every day. What would be your perfect-world situation? I was hoping we could meet somewhere in the middle, with a firm commitment to follow through, and leave it open to re-negotiate in the future if either of us finds that it's not working."

I don't like the idea of 'letting him off the hook' for such an important need. Has he ever been a talker?

OMG that DOES sound much better than the novella I wrote, doesn't it?

Paradigm quake happening here... the possibility of approaching it from the standpoint of respectfully trying to find a solution, rather than letting him know I'm a resentful martyr... what a concept...

Can I do that? Give me a few minutes to chew on it.

ps - no, never been much of a talker. When we first met, I thought he was shy. I made a point of being a very "safe" and comfortable female friend. I later thought he was just aloof, doesn't need anyone, IB-type guy.

Giving him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps my AOs (and DJs and SDs) earlier in our M hurt him more than I realized, and he's got walls up. In which case, I may have to regain his trust through quite some time of no LBs.

*Love* that LB book.

He at least used to be willing to listen to *me* talk, even if he didn't verbally contribute much.

Hmmm, Jayne. I wish I had some words of wisdom to help you!

And this is not going to help, but I wanted to share my experience with the non-verbal type. I do not DO the non-verbal type because of how I was raised.

My dad was/is one. My mom is more like me. Loves to connect, talk, share, gossip. My dad is like a stone wall. He is very short, direct and to the point when he speaks. There is no room for "conversation". My dad does not KNOW how. Oh how my mom could have used this site. She was full of AOs. By the truckloads. That being said, my dad is still a man of few words. She left him when I was 20. Honestly, I viewed their marriage during my upbringing as neglected. She was terribly neglected.

My dad got remarried about 10 years ago and my step mom suffers the way my mom did. He never, ever changed. He has no idea how. My step mom and my mom are SO different, but neither one of them could make him communicate.

I hope things change for you, Jayne. You are such a real, caring woman deserving of more.

Please try and renegotiate the agreement. Act real mature, loving and not like a victim and he will hear you.

What if one of his EN's is NOT TO HAVE TO SPEAK with you when you are intense?

Just an idea.

Ask him to help with this, knowing he does not have the same type of needs as you. Some folks cannot stand conversation. They cannot do it and they cannot bear it.

Help him to want to learn to do it. Do not get upset or resentful, do not give up. Keep on finding creative solutions for this.

I had to do this to make a point. All emotional needs are equally valid.

Over the past two weeks I have read HNHN and Love Busters. Wow - who would have guessed? All EN are equally valid. Sex and conversation are equal. Who would have ever guessed by reading on this forum? So how come all we ever seem to talk about here is sex? Why doesn't conversation get equal time? I think Dr.H put it well, because sex is an event. The other emotional needs are the backdrop to creating a (good) necessary environment for the event of (sex) SF.

Crazy-busy week again this week, just ended.

Update: On the day of my last post, which was last Monday, May 31 (I remember not only because it was shortly after I posted, but also because it was Memorial Day and we didn't have to work that day) I talked to him, using the shorter and sweeter version. I said my ideal would be talking an hour a night, and asked what his would be. He said something like 5 minutes, either 3 nights a week or one night a week.

I tried to initiate negotiating. He started making excuses for why we hadn't talked, and I said that when he has time for getting up early to exercise, or grilling something on the barbecue instead of something quick and easy, and for reading for fun, but doesn't have 5 minutes a night for me, I don't feel loved.

He said he shows his love by making me coffee in the mornings. (He doesn't drink coffee in the mornings, but makes it for me.) I said I've been afraid he was using stuff like that as an excuse to think he doesn't have to talk to me, and that I've told him before to not make coffee for me any more, that I'd much prefer he spend that time talking to me. I told him I *don't want* him making coffee for me *any more*.

I asked him what he'd be willing to try, for a week or two and then we cold renegotiate. He said 5 minutes, 3 nights a week. (I was crying a bit by this time.) I pointed out that 3 nights a week was even less than "most nights" since 3 is less than half of 7. He said, ok, 4 nights a week. I asked him what would it take for him to be enthusiastic about more, and he said nothing, that was all he was willing to agree to. It was very much a "take it or leave it" scenario.

That was Monday night. If you don't count *that* discussion (and I DON'T; discussing whether or not he's willing to talk 5 freakin minutes a night is NOT making any LB$ deposits) then we have not done the 5 minutes a night at ALL. The count is still at 2 or 3 (can't remember whether it's 2 or 3) nights of having a conversation, since May 10. B "conversation" I mean not related to coordinating schedules/activities/bills/purchases. That's 25 nights, right? Even assuming we go over 5 minutes, say a whole 15 minutes, that's still less than an hour in 25 days of having a real UA-style conversation.

Tonight he came to bed and said "I wish it was still raining." I almost didn't hear him, and I asked what he said. He said "I wish it was still raining and lightning." <"lightning-ing?"> I said, "You mean because you like to listen to the storm?" He said "Yeah." I said "Yeah, me too. But can you hear it in here?" <meaning in our bedroom> He didn't say anything, so I said "Well actually I think I've heard it rain in here before, so you must be able to hear it." I think he made a noise of agreement, or said "Yeah" or something.

I don't think that counts as 5 minutes of Conversation. What do y'all think? It *is* more than he usually says when he comes to bed. Should I be appreciative and use positive reinforcement and keep in mind the goal to keep Conversation *enjoyable*? I.e., try not to feel resentful about the crumb?

Jayne, I just don't know, and it hurts to see you settling for this, then getting resentful and AOing, repeating the cycle over and over again. Aren't you two going on vacation together soon, do y'all talk at those times? What about going to bed an hour earlier? maybe you'll talk, maybe you'll snuggle, or rub each others' backs or something? I don't know how to get out of the rut you're in,. Maybe you're not in a rut?

((((Hugs))))

Thanks Ned. Yes, I definitely want to break the cycle.

Yes we're going on a trip soon, it's not a vacation, it's work-related, but it's to a foreign country and of course some excursions are planned.

I'm thinking that if I can keep my resentment at bay, I can make major LB$ deposits. I'm not sure I'm willing to accept any though. But if I am in that state of mind, then I'll end up LBing and not LB$ing.

To be fair, we were both busy up to our eyeballs this week... *and* we saw each other *way* more than usual, because the reason we were busy was because of a workshop that we were both attending. And there was a business dinner last night too. And lots of work-related conversations in groups of people. So in some sense we've "talked" a lot this week, and been together almost 24 hours a day since Wednesday noon. But almost none of the awake time was just us two, let alone being UA.

Hi Jayne,

Don't settle for this. You are being dishonest with your husband to have him think that you are satisfied with 5 minutes 3-4 times a week.

Let's think about this another way. Back in the day, i.e. a long time ago, before a man was considered ready to be married he would have to have: a good job, a house (imagine that these days!), and a proven record for providing for his sweetheart's needs.

I don't get these days how this now equates to "I'll live with you and share my income, but don't expect anymore effort". If you are pretty sure that you've done your program as well as you can, avoiding LBs, AOs and DJs, then POJA is the next thing to do.

If you allow your husband to get away with not fulfilling your emotional needs, then you are being dishonest.

I've had issues along the same vein, i.e. pretending that everything is fine and then exploding about once every 3 months. Let your husband know he is killing your love for him. Honestly. Tell him. Stick to the one issue that is bothering you, and bring it to him. Rationally, non-emotionally, but truthfully.

If you go to your husband and say "dh, I love to spend time in conversation with you. Is there anything I do that makes you not want to talk to me, I'm willing to change those things".

But start convos with him, don't leave it to him to start one up. "dh, could you explain this new mining super-tax?", "dh, I just read this book that talked about X, what do you think?", "dh, I really appreciate you taking time to do Y. How do you think our kids are going?"

In other words, make opportunities for him to fulfill your need for talk.

I'm finding it hard to believe that you would ever have gotten married if your dh was always this short on words. Do you have any idea what has made him change to be this close-mouthed?

Jayne, you are often in my thoughts because I deal with many of these same issues. I'm finding that my dh thinks talking is not fun with me because I bring up operational issues such as who is doing what. I need to not talk about these things when I want casual chats. This is hard for me because everything seems inter-related, but not so much with my dh.

I think I'm in a rut. Or maybe that is optimistic. A rut sounds like we've slipped into a routine that's boring, as a result of not not paying attention. This feels like a painful lonely state of affairs that I have been paying attention to, and have brought to H's attention too.

I usually am in bed before him, often online with my laptop. He's out in the living room working on his laptop. He usually doesn't come to bed until he's already about 60 seconds away from falling asleep. So it's up to him as to whether he is willing to come to bed any earlier.

And he doesn't like physical touch much at all. Not even holding hands.

I've always loved physical touch, BTW.

Yes, my bad for the choice I made.

Jayne, my H stopped all kinds of things, for many years. Now he does most of them again. There was never anything wrong with him, he just lacked the motivation. Now he is motivated. UA time, FC time, dropped Buddy, gives affection and kind words. Doesn't matter, I'm not willing to live in "will-I-stay-or-will-I-go" mode for the rest of my life, if that's what it takes to get and keep his attention. But your H may not meed that level of motivation ongoing to make lasting changes. When you had your illness, you can see how your H stepped up to the plate. You know most men don't do this. I believe that your H does have what it takes to make changes. Maybe if he spoke to Steve again, that would do it. Or maybe you need a more drastic change, I don't know.

Hmmm, there's the rub. Like you say below, this unreciprocated "Plan A behavior" usually does mean an AO erupts every few months. Which sends me back to square one as far as Plan-Aing him.


But what choice do I have? He was pretty firm that this was a take-it-or-leave-it deal. And he didn't even do that much - not a single night, since he said 4 nights a week.


Yep, that's me all right.


I have.


I may not have done it exactly like this. Non-emotionally is very hard. And I may not have stuck to the one issue... I think sometimes I probably did, but not all the time. I could try, or try again... but I've tried to tell him in so many ways that I'm afraid of being "the boy who cried wolf" because nothing ever changes, and I don't leave, and I don't really have any other recourse if he chooses to not do what I request. I definitely feel like I've lost any credibility with him.


Maybe I'll say this sometime over the weekend. I think a discussion of the success/failure of our agreement is warranted.


I dunno if I can do this... it sounds like the wise thing to do, but right now I feel too hurt to initiate it myself...


Ok, I don't wanna leave this posted for very long, but the honest truth is... the alarm was ringing big time on my biological clock. So, yes, I knew he wasn't much of a talker... but I thought he was just shy.


Some of the operational discussions are fine, IMHO. Like, it can be intermixed with plans, dreams, hopes... and feelings about things...

F'rinstance: Discussing what to do for the weekend can include trying to find time to do something with the kids, and sharing the fear that they will eventually not want to do things as a family and the worry that you aren't doing all you should to be the best parent... and a discussion of the work on the house that you want to do can lead to talking about what sort of colors do you like, your opinions on Feng Sui(sp?) - do you believe it, or think it's a bunch of malarkey... what style of house, interior decorating, landscaping, etc. do you like; what things you've liked in other countries; do you want to go "green"; what do you think of global warming, the politics, the science; what do you think about the oil spill; what is the future of the planet; globalization and the internet; what about that couple in Taiwan(?) who let their RL baby starve to death while they nurtured a virtual reality child; back to guilt feelings over not doing enough with your own kids; what your hopes and dreams are for them when they grow up; how much are you putting away for their college, and for your retirement; what do you think of Dave Ramsey and Suzi Orman; speaking of Ramsey, what about Chef Ramsay, he's kinda hot; he had a good dish you'd like to try; when would you like to try it; what do you want for dinner; what did the doctor say about your cholesterol; ...

That could be quite a conversation! Sharing some fears, worries and concerns with someone helps them seem not so bad. Sharing hopes and aspirations and dreams helps build bonds. Chitchatting about likes and dislikes, and current events, builds a sense of friendship. Etc.

Of course YMMV, everyone is different in what meets their EN for Conversation. I would love such a conversation, though.

You're right. Reading some of the things other women struggle with, I'd rather have my H and my problems, and how he puts up with my own idiosyncrasies (sp?), than someone else's H who would have a whole nuther set of problems.

ETA: He has said he doesn't see any reason for him to speak to SH again, and he isn't interested at all in doing so.

g'nite y'all, thanks for everyone's comments. I really appreciate y'all talking to me and listening.

Jayne, your examples of how conversations evolve from operational issues, is right on, IMO and maybe could provide some sort of answer?

Do you think your H fears C with you because he's afraid of any C being the dreaded "relationship" type talks? You know the mushy, feely, Nicholas Sparks type dialog? I can see most guys running for the hills if they thought they were signing up for even 5 min a night of that.

Have you given examples to him of what satisfies your EN for conversation? The painting example.

Or maybe, as someone said, just initiate the conversation and see where it goes. Ask a lot of open ended questions.

For instance:

YOU; Are we still on for painting the family room this weekend?

HIM: Yeah

YOU: How do you feel about taking another look at the colors we picked. Before we put them on the wall, to make sure we really like them. (this is a sly attempt to maneuver the conversation, open it up)

HIM: Ok

YOU: Yanno, I always thought yellow was a warm color but looking at this yellow, I'm not so sure. What kind of feeling does this shade of yellow give you? (so you're not asking him a yes/no question such as "do you still like it", you are asking him to define how it makes him feel. And he might be less threatened by defining how a paint color makes him feel than how YOU make him feel. LOL)

HIM: Hopefully gives you more than a 3-word response here.

YOU: Pick up on what he says. "Wow, H...I never thought of that. When we decided to go with yellow because we both liked the sunny aspect, I figured any yellow would do. But yeah, you have a great point. It's making me feel...not sunny and you just nailed why. How do you feel about taking another look at the colors?"

HIM: Sure.

YOU: Well, what kinds/ families of colors do you like? And why do you like them? Do blues make you feel one way and greens another?


And so on.

Before you know it, you've spent 15 min in C!

Well, the paint feeling thing is worth a try I suppose. I don't know if I'd mix it with "how does yellow make you feel" and does "blue make you feel differently than X color?" I know all guys aren't the same, but I'd burst out laughing if my wife started asking how does this color make you feel questions.

Now, you could easily ask him if you think the yellow is too bright, and if so, would the room be a better color with yellow accents or highlights. You can easily lead him in a discussion this way. Stuff like, "if company came over, would the yellow be too distracting?" Throw in color combinations and which color combinations he thinks would look better. I realize it's not quite thought provoking but will lead him through a conversation.

Not long ago before we moved, we went through a �what colors are we going to paint the house� conversation. I was stuck in the living room with black and red. So she asked what parts I wanted red and what I wanted black. I told her that I liked the black and red because they contrasted and really brought out the colors but too much red seemed aggressive and too much black was too confining. She agreed and asked what other color I might want to mix in with the black and red so that it wasn�t overbearing. Anyway, this conversation went on for at least 30 minutes and we moved around the living room looking at where the colors might be best painted. There wasn�t any feelings talk in the obvious manner (aside from red is aggressive and black is confining).

Does he text? My wife and I do a ton of texting...we go through several hundred a day when one of us is working due to the fact that most of the time neither one of us can get to the phone or can't hear what the other person is saying when we're working due ot the working conditions. I don't have a high need for conversation, it's kinda in the lower middle. I tend to like joking around (anything involving a laugh), small talk, and flirting.

I found that through texting my wife and I can stay in pretty constant conversation all day. I'm not sure if some would consider it conversation or if you would and if you did if your husband would.