I forgot. I also had something to say about the way that WH's think about their OW after. They can't believe that she was the most horrible thing in the world because what would that say about THEM? That would mean that they were fools who "fell in lurve" with a horrible POS human being. Who are they? How could they be that dumb?

Because most divorces are filed by women, not men. And if you read Dr H, it's not the wives of these cheating husbands. Instead, it's wives who THINK they are neglected so the first guy that strokes a need (probably one she's been denying her husband in the first place) gets some play. She gets emotionally attached and divorces her husband.

We have this wrong-headed notion that marital problems stem from bad husbands. I don't buy it since the ones who cheat don't have to worry much about their wives divorcing them according to Dr H. But when wives cheat, it's generally game over.

Maybe we have the stereotype backwards and it's not men who are the problems in most of these cases like society would like us to believe?

Thats because women are princesses and men are mean ole ogres!!

That seems reasonable. Again, read what Dr H has said. When women choose divorce, and 66-75% of all divorces are filed by women, it's NOT women who've been abused or betrayed. Instead, it's women who THINK they've been neglected.

I'm not saying the guys were doing the right things. But I suspect many/most of the cases were like mine. I was busy, caring for the family, but doing the WRONG things. So is that neglect or ignorance?

If I'm meeting the FS need, the AS need, the RC need, but she wants some other need met, then it doesn't matter that I've been busy with those if they are not the needs she wants me to meet. She'll say I "neglected" her.

Now I'd be a fool to meet the wrong needs if I knew. Of course, it's also not very honest to let your spouse beat themselves up meeting the wrong needs while never saying I'd like you to do more of XYZ instead of what you are doing.

So I fully believe that only 17% of divorces are due to infidelity, even with no fault divorce laws. Based on what Dr H says he finds, few divorces are filed by the betrayed wife compared to the wive who was neither betrayed nor abused.

Not to mention, how many who say their husbands neglected them are really having an affair of her own?

My XWH starved me to death emotionally for *years*. That was my punishment for wanting him to stop dating other women, and was meant to bully me into "just accepting it". I did not have an affair either before or after he began starving me.

Sorry to disappoint you.

Oh, and when he finally got it through his head that NOTHING would EVER make me shut up and look the other way in regard to his dating other women, he moved out and he filed for divorce.

Again, sorry.

You are going to offend a lot of BWs here with that sentiment.

But we BH's should not be offended when we are told that the reasons women choose divorce is because some TYPICAL man can't keep it in his pants?

Let's get real about who is being offensive here.

Go read what Dr H says. He cannot convince MOST women who are abused or betrayed to choose divorce. So for the MAJORITY of women choosing divorce, are the men they are divorcing the "TYPICAL" man who can't control it, or are the they men who didn't beat, didn't cheat and just don't know how to meet the needs of their wives?

According to Dr H, the "TYPICAL" man is a-typical. Most of the men being divorced ARE NOT cheaters or abusers.

So pardon me if I find the stereotype of the TYPICAL man very offensive. Yet it's thrown around here as if it's truth.

Also pardon me if the BW's who according to Dr H are the minority when it comes to filing for divorce are offended by the fact that most wives who choose divorce are NOT BW's, but rather simply women who gave up.

Those are the ugly facts surrounding divorce in America today. The WH has a far better chance of ending up in a restored marriage than does a BH.

That's just plain sad.

Does Dr. Harley say that few divorces are filed by the BW? It just seems around here that a lot of BW are forced to file for divorce because the WH will not stop seeing OW.

He says he is seldom able to convince BW and abused W's to choose divorce. Combine that with the fact that 2/3rds to 3/4s of all divorces are filed by women and it becomes more clear that women are leaving not because of abuse, but because of perceived neglect.

Why I say it's perceived is because the men who are left are almost universally shocked and believe they've been contributing to the marriage.

So which is the truth? Why not both? She feels neglected, and arguing against how she feels will not change how she feels. Likewise, he feels like he's been there. Why is his perspective less correct than hers?

So I say he's been active, but doing the wrong things. The problem is, she's closed the bank. She's emotionally shut him out. She not only rejects what he's done in the past, but she's not open to him acting in the future and files for divorce citing mental cruelty or irreconcilable differences.

He probably never even heard from her the words that she was unhappy until she's either moved out, or he's served with divorce papers and the deputy wants him to leave the marital home.

Sounds crazy, but ask most men who've been served with divorce papers and you'll find a similar story.

But they have to be pushed to do it. And even at that, many still will not. Like Dr Harley said on the radio last week, it doesn't occur to them to do it.

I think a lot of the reason that the BW's don't go the D route has A LOT to do with finances. I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

Yet that doesn't seem to stop the WW or even the wives who simply perceive they are neglected.

I'm not so sure that a BW not choosing to divorce because of financial needs is a sign of good character. Not saying it's bad either.

I'd like to think these women are taking their vows seriously, even if their husbands aren't.

The difference is, more WH's return than do WW's or NW's.

Once a WW/NW is gone, I believe it's better than 90% chance that she's gone for good.

Uh - I'm not sure what you're getting at. I said nothing about this and neither did the Harleys. They maintain just the opposite - that women file for divorce when they feel neglected and emotionally starved, and I agree with them.

They go on to say that even when their husbands cheat or outright physically abuse them, many women still stay. My XWH was a master manipulator and knew exactly how and when to dish out the crumbs just enough to keep me hanging. He learned from the best of the manipulators and bullcrap artists - first his mother, and then Corporate America.

It's the neglect that finally gets the wives to give up and file. If you want to get rid of a woman, don't fight with her or cheat on her. Just ignore her to death. That will do it.

I am not the one who filed, but for about two weeks before he left I did finally manage to disconnect from him and just leave him alone. It was less painful than trying every day to connect with him and running headlong into a solid stone wall every time.

I gave up.

And that's when he left, and that's when he filed.

Again - I'm not sure what you're arguing about, or why. What I just posted is straight from the Harleys. I just happen to agree with it, because it was my experience, too.

I don't know if this is true either. My Mom just returned to my Dad after being in an affair for 2 years and living with POSOM for almost 2 years. I don't know if they will stay together or not. They aren't using MB. I also know that my SIL would have tried to reconcile with her BH had he not already moved on.

I wasn't implying that a BW not filing for a D was a sign of her good character, just giving a possible reason why they don't file. I myself am not filing for a D because I don't want to be D. I found MB though, who knows what I would have done if I hadn't found this site.

No one is arguing against your experience. However, I don't think it's typical. Remember, the women Dr Harley is talking about who are leaving and choosing divorce, their husbands are NOT having affairs.

You said your XH was doing this. So right there, your experience, your situation is different from the one Dr H was talking about.

It's the same in SOME respects. You were the BW and you didn't choose to file for divorce. But in other respects, it really has little in common with those wives who chose to divorce their husbands.

1. The wives choosing to divorce chose to divorce, that's different from your circumstance.

2. The wives choosing to divorce their husbands are choosing to divorce husbands who are faithful husbands, your husband was cheating.

3. The wives choosing to divorce their husbands are choosing to divorce husbands who are not abusers. A husband who cheats is an abusive, unsafe person.

Your husband certainly was neglecting you. If he's chasing other women, then he's really being neglectful. The other men who are left, you know, the majority who were not having affairs or being abusive indicate almost to a man that they were NOT neglecting their spouses.

Do we believe one person, but not the other? Are the wives choosing divorce more credible than the husbands being divorced? Nope, honesty is not a gender related trait, so both groups are equally honest.

So how is the difference addressed? It's likely the men were doing the WRONG things. If they wives felt neglected, yet the men say they were present and engaged, then the logical issue is that the men were engaged in actions that did not make deposits in the wives love banks.

We cannot merely accept ONLY what the wives are saying and reject the accounts by the husbands who are divorced. They are just as credible as the wives who claim neglect.

Either we accept the accounts of both, giving each the same credence, or we accept neither. However, we cannot accept one and reject the other.

Again, why is it a WH has a better chance of ending up in a restored marriage than an abandoned or BH? (And I'd say an abandoned husband, one who's not cheated, nor abused is a BH, since the vows are being broken by the wife who chooses divorce when betrayal and abuse are both absent from his behavior.)

Individual cases don't make up for stats. I worked with Steve Harley to win back my WW, and he told me it was much more difficult to win back a WW than it was to win back a WH.

More difficult, I agree. When I read SAA though, I felt like I had a worse chance than my Dad to reconcile. There are things in there that DrH talks about how WH's have no problem being in love with more than one woman at a time so they are more likely to want to keep both. There is also times when he says that he has counseled WH's who go back to their "lovers" after years of what appears to be a restored marriage.

Sure, because he has more opportunity to do so. WW seldom go back the first time, so there is logically less chance for them to relapse if they never ever return to the marriage.

If they don't return to the marriage, how would he ever have the chance to deal with a relapse?

It is also interesting to me that in SAA DrH chooses to show a WW in a PA and a WH in an EA. Wouldn't the stats how the opposite to be MORE likely?

In my case, the OW is single. Apparently, that makes it even HARDER for me. I am not going to give up.

It is interesting to read the BH's write on this forum and talk about what they will and will not deal with when it comes to their wives A's. Most of them state that they would NOT take their WW back if there was a PA. Most BW's assume that their WH's have had a PA. It was told to me right away that since my WH had plans for leaving me, he was in a PA. Those posters were absolutely correct. WW's tend to fall for an OM even when it is an EA and are willing to give up their whole life over that alone.

Trying to figure out all of the intricate details of how one gender is better/worse with dealing with an affair is a discussion I believe I am not able to add to at this time as I need to learn a lot more.

I think the difference is in the emotional state.

The WH is still emotionally attached to his wife AND his love. The WW typically has detached from her BH. That allows her to have her affair. It has to do with the typical (but not universal) differences between men and women. Men typically are better able to compartmentalize, which means they can have an affair and still be emotionally attached to their wives.

This also gives BW a better chance, because he's not detached from his BW.

On the other hand, the typical WW emotionally detached from her husband before or around the time the affair starts. She is no longer attached to her husband, therefore, she is harder to win back. There is far less compartmentalization. So if she's having an affair, typically, she's emotionally detached from her husband.

There is no attachment to draw her back. She's already closed the love bank, and the deposits the BH makes are ineffective. They are rejected.

Are there exceptions? Certainly. However, the majority of cases will go exactly as I've stated here.

The WW has cut all ties with her BH, and closed his account in the love bank.

The WH still maintains ties with both the BW and the lover and either can make deposits in the love bank.

This is why the women in this article, the husband stealers are often ineffective. The BW's can still make effective deposits in the love bank of the WH.

EE, I think you are misconstruing Dr.H's words somewhat. In the articles where he writes about neglect, in many cases, the neglect results in one or the other spouse having an affair. Women simply aren't flocking to the courthouse to divorce their neglectful husbands. Neglect may be there, but it's often something else that sparks it.

My story is similar to Mulan's - I was the neglected one, yet he cheated. And he filed, though it doesn't say adultery and we aren't counted among the 17%. He preferred to wait the year and avoid that stigma. I agree, this is anecdotal rather than "typical" but it does show that these stats aren't accurate. And yes, I'm very offended by some of the misogynistic statements that you wrote.

The reasons women file more than men are many. First, there's the cake-eater situation that spawned this whole topic (husbands cheating on their wives but never leaving them). Women may put up with this more but eventually enough is enough. Second, there's the WW's who have checked out of the M emotionally to be with their OM. They leave to be with their OM - unlike the cake-eating men that have no intention of leaving their BW's. That's not to say there aren't cake-eating women or walk-away men (mine was a WAH) but those are the trends. It adds up to more women filing than men.

Since this all happened to me, I have met and come to know hundreds of divorcees. I know only 2 that divorced because of abuse - all the rest were adultery though not a single one of them have that on their divorce papers. Even in no-fault states, lawyers tend to discourage you from stating so as the process isn't speeded up any and you can still run the risk of being sued for libel. That plus the stigma discourages most.

EEx, I get the feeling from your writings that you are a very bitter man from your experiences. I hope you can find peace some day.