Who, nesre? Someone from the board?

I get your point.
I know many 2 alcoholic marriages from our AA group of friends.
Some work better than others.
But, I'm not arguing against your opinion just because I know exceptions.
One couple I know met in AA, have been married 20 or so years. Individually they have more than 30 years sobriety. They are not crazy. Maybe they were when they started, but certainly not now.

Another couple, married 2 years ago.
We attended their gorgeous wedding.
Both sweet people in their 50s.
The marriage lasted less than a year.
They brought out the crazy in each other.
Sadly, the guy is dating another woman from AA.
No one thinks this is a good idea.

This has been my experience. I can count the alcoholic marriages [with 2 alcoholics] that worked on 3 fingers over 25 years. The vast majority don't work. Even when it is between 2 with long term and solid sobriety. They brought out the very worst in each other.

I know that would happen to me. That craziness is right there waiting to come out some day!

Non alcoholics can be crazy too.

Marrying a "normy" is no guarantee they ain't crazy.

This is something my sponsor (fifty years sober this October) has also said.

I wish he'd said it before I married one...

THERE IS A SUMMARY AT THE BOTTMOM OF THE POST SINCE THIS GOT EXTREMELY LENGTHY.

Pep
Quote Nesre
"EVERYONE IS CAUTIONING ME TO GO VERY SLOW AND I AM. JUST STARTED TO TALK WITH HER AGAIN FRIDAY SINCE SHE SHE IS MEETING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE PLNB LETTER. AT THIS POINT I SEE CHANGES BUT KNOW TIME WILL TELL IF THEY ARE REAL."

Pep
It all depends on how you define going slow, doesn't it?

Talking to her at this point can't hurt, unless it does.
KWIM?


The PlB letter only covered contact again as in TALK TO period........No promises of trying to recover or even working on the M. Basically since 2007 when she went back to drinking and disapearing for nights I have asked her to leave. With the series of events since Nov. 2009 with working with the counselor I was advised to leave her some cash and move out since she would not leave. No PLA here although I was quite supportive when she really made attempts to sober up.

If talking to her ( at this very early stage ) gets you emotionally invested, vulnerable, hopeful, etc ... I think you are making a mistake.

I know it is most difficult to manage to maintain zero expectations ... But IMO, that is what your task is right now.

EVEN JUST THE LITTLE BIT OF CONTACT WE HAVE HAD OVER THE WEEKEND I GET HOPEFUL. AT THIS POINT THOUGH BEING THIS EARLY INTO SOBRIETY I AM REALISTIC ENOUGH TO REALIZE ITS WAY TOO EARLY FOR ANYTHING CONCERNING MR I WANT TO BE SURE HER RECOVERY FROM ALCOHOL IS REAL. EVEN BEFORE THIS ALL HAPPENED (PLB.) I MADE UP MY MIND THAT IT WOULD BE MORE IMPORTANT FOR HER TO FIND RECOVERY THAN TO TRY TO RECOVER THE M.
WHEN SHE WAS IN TREATMENT IN NOV2009 THE COUNSELOR KEPT ASKING ME IF I SAW "ANY LIGHTS ON". THE AHAHHA MOMENT WHEN CLARITY COMES BACK INTO YOUR LIFE AFTER CHOOSING RECOVERY FROM ALCOHOL. I SAW NO REACTION TOWARD LIFE, OUR DD OR OUR M.


Here are my suggestions:

Go slower than slow.
THATS WHY I SIGNED A SIX MONTH LEASE INSTEAD OF A THREE MONTH. ITS BEEN THREE MONTHS NOW AND I THINK SHE FIGURED OUT DD AND I ARE NOT RUNNING FOR HOME.

Meet for one hour over coffee once a week.
No deep relationship talks.
BASICALLY WHAT WE DID THIS WEEKEND IN LITTLE BITES. DD WENT TO THE HOUSE FOR THE WEEKEND. I CAME OUT AND DID SOME CHORES THAT WERE LONG OVERDUE LIKE GETTING THE BOATS READY AND PUTTING THEM IN THE WATER. DID SOME TUBING TWICE AND COOKED OUT. I DID NOT STAY OR OVERSTAY.

NO RELATIONSHIP TALK. I LIKE TO CALL IT- JUST B'in


Observe her.
How relaxed vs tense is she?

SHE WAS UP AND DOWN WITH BEING TENSE AND RELAXED. WHEN SHE GOT AGGITATED SHE EXCUSED HERSELF AND REGROUPED. SHE HAS A SPRITUAL BOOK SHE ENJOYS AND IT SEEMS TO CALM HER. ALSO SHE DOES HAVE A SPONSOR NOW TO CALL AND DOES. BEFORE A SPONSOR NEVER LASTED MORE THAN A FEW MEETINGS AND ALL SORTS OF REASONS CAME OUT WHY IT WOULD NOT WORK WITH THAT PERSON.


How often or how easily does she smile, or laugh.
BY NATURE SHE IS A BULLSHI++ER. SOME OF IT RIGHT NOW SEEMS FORCED. SOME SEEMS REAL. DD HAD FRIENDS OUT ALL WEEKEND SO THERE WERE SOME GOOD LAUGHS WITH TEENAGE STUFF.

Is she able to maintain eye contact?
SHE DID MAINTAIN EYE CONTACT A FEW TIMES. I LOCKED ON ALSO. USED TO SEE A SPARKLE IN HER EYES. THAT HAS BEEN GONE QUITE A WHILE NOW.

THAT IS SOMETHING I REMEMBER AS A WAYWARD-NOT BEING ABLE TO HOLD EYE CONTACT WITH HER. HOW I THOUGHT SHE COULD SEE RIGHT THROUGH TO MY SOUL AND DID NOT WANT HER TO SEE ME. EYE CONTACT WAS EXTREMELY UNCOMFORTABLE.

Does she make sense?
SHE HAS VALID POINTS ON ISSUES AT TIMES. THE WAY THEY ARE PRESENTED IS MORE OF AN ISSUE THAN ANYTHING. FORCED-CONTROLLING. SOMETIMES I HEAR HER POINT AND CAN'T GET PAST HOW IT IS PRESENTED TO ME. MORE ALONG THE LINES OF DISRESPECT. NOT MANY THOUGHTFUL REQUESTS.

Does she sound grounded?

MORE THAN SHE HAS IN MONTHS. I JUST DO NOT TRUST IT YET. I KNOW MY DEFENSES ARE STILL UP AND RISE QUICKLY WHEN NEEDED.

Zero expectations.
Observe don't engage emotionally.
Time limit .... A strict time limit.
THE ZERO EXPEXTATIONS IS HARD.
SHE IS AN EMOTIONAL PERSON-AT TIMES ALMOST CHILD LIKE. I GET SUCKED IN VERY EASILY SO THIS ONE WILL BE THE HARDEST.
TIME LIMIT GOT CARRIED AWAY THIS WEEKEND AND I WILL TRY TO CONTROL THAT MORE WITH SHORTER GET TOGETHERS.

Just my suggestions.

Best to you.

ML

Well, she has not met the conditions of your Plan B if she is not cooperating with the MB program. I would lay out your conditions for marital recovery:

1. absolute no contact with OM for life. no opposite sex friendships

2. complete and total honesty about her affairs

3. no leisure time spent apart

you get the picture. Lay it out and do not negotiate on one damn thing. If you lower your standards with a drunk, you are asking for trouble. Raise the bar and she will either meet your standards or you will be better off without her.

Personally, being an alcoholic myself, I would never marry an alcoholic myself. They are too high risk.
p.s. and I would be ADAMANT that she attend all female meetings. ADAMANT

I GET THIS-DO NOT LOWER THE BAR. SET IT HIGH RIGHT FROM THE START.
SHE IS REALLY TRYING TO DO WHAT HER SPONSOR SUGGESTED AND IS ATTENDING THE MEETINGS WITH HER. I WILL TEST THE WATERS ON THIS AS THERE ARE ONLY A FEW THAT ARE ALL FEMALE MEETINGS AROUND. IN THE PAST I KNOW SHE HAS ATTENDED THEM. WOMANS SPONSORHIP IN THIS TOWN SUCKS. I HAVE HEARD AND QUESTIONED OTHER WOMAN AND FROM THE WAY THEY EXPLAIN IT GOOD SPONSORS ARE IN HIGH DEMAND. IF YOU JUST WANT A CREAMPUFF OR A COFFEE BUDDY THERE ARE PLENTY OF THOSE AROUND.


PEP
"Personally, being an alcoholic myself, I would never marry an alcoholic myself. They are too high risk." - MelodyHellLane.

I would never knowingly marry an alcoholic either.
Key word : knowingly

But, too late!
I already am married to an alcoholic.
He's adorable.

As a sober man, he's my best husband, so far.


The issue is, once you know your spouse is an alcoholic .... Then what?
The choices are different.

Alcoholics are some of my favorite people.
The sober-AA-attending ones, that is.

Having said that, if I were single, I would not knowingly marry an addict of ANY variety.
Sex addict?
Gambling addict?
Porn addict?
Drug addict?

No thank you.
1000% AGREE WITH THIS.
I KNEW I WAS ALCOHOLIC BY MY 19TH BIRTHDAY. HE11 I THINK I WAS BORN WITH IT BECAUSE THE FIRST TIME I HAD REAL ACCESS TO ALCOHOL (AGE 14 ) I BLACKED OUT. MOST OF THE TIME FROM THERE ON OUT IT WAS ALWAYS THE SAME.
W SAYS SHE PROBABLY KNEW ALSO AT THE SAME AGE.
WHEN WE MARRIED I WAS CLEAN ALMOST 3 YEARS. SHE HAD NEVER KNOWN ME DRINKING. I TOLD HER SHE PROBABLY WOULD'NT WANT TO KNOW ME IF I WAS. AFTER ABOUT 2 YEARS OF MARRIAGE I BEGAN AGAIN WITH HER NOT KNOWING THE CAN OF WHOOPA$$ THAT WAS OPENED. FOR A YEAR AND HALF I KEPT TRYING TO PUT THE COVER BACK ON. ONS STARTED WITH IT. THE GUILT WAS UNBELIEVABLE. DS26 WAS THE ONLY REASON I LIVED AFTER I SOBERED UP.

TST

Nesre,

I consider the requirements of reconciliation to be above all.

You need to require complete Openness & Honesty! To think NC or sobriety is enough is foolish, yet many fall in to this way of thinking.

THE REQUIREMENT IN THE PLANB LETTER WAS TO ONLY OPEN CONVERSATION OF ANY TYPE WITH HER AGAIN.
I KNOW THERE ARE "MANY SEASONS OF WORK AHEAD'' FOR HER.


Even the BB says as much;

"The alcoholic is like a tornado roaring his way through the lives of others. Hearts are broken. Sweet relationships are dead. Affections have been uprooted. Selfish and inconsiderate habits have kept the home in turmoil. We feel a man is unthinking when he says that sobriety is enough." (pg. 82 of the third edition)


Edited by tst (Yesterday at 02:19 PM)
Edit Reason: spl chek

Through the years, I've witnessed many members of AA that like to cling to the paragraph on pg 82 of the BB that says; "...we feel we have no right to involve another person".

And then there is grand illusion that I do not need to be honest about my wrongs because of the disclaimer, "....except when to do so would injure them or others". (second half of the ninth step)

It's amazing how we cling to our old ideas and support them with what we want to hear.

THE ABOVE IS WHAT SHE IS CLINGING TO EXACTLY.

These same alcoholics convieniently leave out some of Bill W's other thoughts on the same subject from the BB when discussing infidelity. "Perhaps there are some cases where the UTMOST frankness is demanded.

HER SPONSOR SAYS SHE DOES NOT HAVE TO GO INTO THE PAST AND SHE IS RIGHT. I ALSO DON'T HAVE TO GO INTO THE FUTURE WITH WW IF I CHOOSE NOT TO.

No outside can appraise such an intimate situation." and "Each might pray about it, having the other ones happiness uppermost in mind". (pg 82 of the third edition)

I HAVE BROUGHT THIS UP.
THEY WILL SEE EACH OTHER WED. NIGHT. I THINK THERE MAY BE DISCUSSION ON IT.

We often forget that Bill W wrote this BB in 1939 and the fact that he was not a professional. We know so much more today. Just as Bill said in 1939, ".....we realize we know only a little. God will constently disclose more to you and to us." (pg. 164 of the third edition)



Edited by tst (Yesterday at 02:22 PM)
Edit Reason: added a line

Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
p.s. and I would be ADAMANT that she attend all female meetings. ADAMANT.

TST
I would agree!

This was my wife's requirement for me after my A.

The only exception being open meetings that she would attend with me!


I WILL TRY WITH THIS AS DISCUSSED BEFORE.


ML

Originally Posted By: Pepperband
The issue is, once you know your spouse is an alcoholic .... Then what?
The choices are different.


ML
We sober alcoholics do fine married to normals, but 2 alcoholics together is some bad, bad, business. I have seen some disasterous marriages between 2 alcoholics over the years. They almost always end bad because when you have 2 crazy people together, you have craziness.

When you have 1 crazy and 1 normal, you get a nice mix as long as the craziness is held at bay by sobriety. But one crazy person can bring that out in the other.

When I got divorced, I would NEVER go on a date with an AA because I would never marry one.

I WOULD ONLY CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY IF THE PERSON WAS EXTREMELY INVOLVED IN LIFE TO THE FULLEST. (FAMILY/CHURCH/CAREER/INTRESTS) THEN LONG TERM 15 YEARS PLUS SOBRIETY AND WORKING ONE HE11 OF A PROGRAM. IT STILL COULD BRING OUT THE CRAZY. ITS A GAMBLE THAT CAN BE UP OR DOWN.
I REALLY FEEL AL-ANON HELPS WITH THIS. NOT ONLY FOR M RELATIONSHIPS ALSO SPONSEES-CHILDREN-OTHER RELATIVES AND FRIENDS. IT HELPS ME TO DETACH FROM THE ILLNESS/DI-EASE-SICKNESS-WHATEVER YOU BELIVE IT IS AND FIND COMPASSION, LOVE AND TOLERANCE FOR THE PERSON I ONCE WAS.

ML
Originally Posted By: nesre
alanon, work with IC who worked under Harley for seven years.

ML
Who, nesre? Someone from the board?
NO THIS IS A PRIVATE IC. I WILL CHECK AND SEE WHERE SHE WORKED. MINNEAPOLS/ST. PAUL AREA. IT MAY HAVE BEEN WHEN HARLEY OWNED THE TREATMENT CENTERS. SHE MAY HAVE BEEN AN ADDICTIONS COUNSELOR. SHE DOES KNOW OF THIS BOARD THOUGH BUT SAYS SHE HAS NEVER EXPLORED IT.
USES THE HARLEY BOOKS AND PRINCIPLES.
PEP

Quote:ML

We sober alcoholics do fine married to normals, but 2 alcoholics together is some bad, bad, business. I have seen some disasterous marriages between 2 alcoholics over the years. They almost always end bad because when you have 2 crazy people together, you have craziness.

PEP
I get your point.
I know many 2 alcoholic marriages from our AA group of friends.
Some work better than others.
But, I'm not arguing against your opinion just because I know exceptions.
One couple I know met in AA, have been married 20 or so years. Individually they have more than 30 years sobriety. They are not crazy. Maybe they were when they started, but certainly not now.

Another couple, married 2 years ago.
We attended their gorgeous wedding.
Both sweet people in their 50s.
The marriage lasted less than a year.
They brought out the crazy in each other.
Sadly, the guy is dating another woman from AA.
No one thinks this is a good idea.

Originally Posted By: Pepperband
[Both sweet people in their 50s.
The marriage lasted less than a year.
They brought out the crazy in each other.

ML
This has been my experience. I can count the alcoholic marriages [with 2 alcoholics] that worked on 3 fingers over 25 years. The vast majority don't work. Even when it is between 2 with long term and solid sobriety. They brought out the very worst in each other.

I know that would happen to me. That craziness is right there waiting to come out some day!

PEP
Non alcoholics can be crazy too.

Marrying a "normy" is no guarantee they ain't crazy.

Fred in VA
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Personally, being an alcoholic myself, I would never marry an alcoholic myself. They are too high risk.
Fred
This is something my sponsor (fifty years sober this October) has also said.

I wish he'd said it before I married one...
_________________________
If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done?


I ONLY KNOW OF THREE AND ONE IS LESS THAN A YEAR OLD. I BUMP INTO HER AT MY HOME AA GROUP AND AT MY AL-ANON MEETING FROM TIME TO TIME. THEY BOTH STARTED OFF THE M THAT WAY. THE OTHERS ARE SECOND M'S FOR BOTH PARTYS AND NEITHER ONE WERE THROUGH THE DRINKING TIMES WITH THE OTHER.

I READ THESE POSTS LATE LAST NIGHT. I LET THEM CIRCLE AROUND IN MY HEAD ALL DAY.
THIS IS WHAT I GATHER:

SET THE BAR HIGH
REQUIRE O & H CONCERNING THE A.
NO MALE FRIENDSHIPS
TAKE IT SLOW-EXTREMELY SLOW
NO LIESURE TIME APART
ATTEND FEMALE AA MEETINGS
N/C FOR LIFE WITH OM
SHORT BRIEF MEETINGS W/WW. COFFEE-EAT OUT
NO R TALK/NO EMOTIONAL INVOLVEMENT
ZERO EXPECTATIONS FOR NOW

WATCH BODY SIGNALS-LOOK ME IN THE EYES/TENSE OR RELAXED/SMILES AND LAUGHTER

DID I MISS ANY? ARE THERE OTHER THOUGHTS?

I APPRECIATE ALL THE POSTS AND COMMENTS.

NESRE

ML

Do you have time?

You met my WW here a few weeks ago and just want to see if the advice given then would be the same now.

Nesre

Hi nesre! Who is she? Can you be specific about what you are asking?

It is xxxxx

I value your opinion.

After 20 days of sobriety would you still give the same advice to xxxxxx ? Airtight Plan B?

My guts tell me so since nothing has changed except a cork on the bottle....FOR how long?

You had it pegged right with your posts. Counselors and friends have told her exactly the same thing over the past years.

I would like to keep anonymous to her here since her comment was to try and get me kicked off the board.

Nesre

I would not touch it with a 10' pole until she made a DRAMATIC personal transformation from a lying, rationalizing drunk to a sane, honest, sober person. I don't see how that could have happened in 20 days.

She should be forced to do a complete 180 before she deserves to have a husband again.

What kind of Plan B are you in and what is she doing?

I would not touch it with a 10' pole until she made a DRAMATIC personal transformation from a lying, rationalizing drunk to a sane, honest, sober person. I don't see how that could have happened in 20 days.


It has not happened. I did not expect it to happen. It just goes in a crazy circle round and round over and over. Leads nowhere.
Her last round of of not drinking (in 2007-18months) was only a dry drunk.


She should be forced to do a complete 180 before she deserves to have a husband again.

What kind of Plan B are you in and what is she doing? [/quote]

I don't exactly fit into MB"s because the underlying problem-Alcohol has not been solved. I am not the one that is going to solve it for her.

Currently not in PLB. The one before was very short lived before it was broke-not really a PLB.

WW as far as I know is staying away from POS and not drinking. WW will not honestly talk about it. Life began 20 days ago and I (Nesre) WILL JUST HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT. YOU Nesre have hurt me for 28 years and I can draw from any past hurt at any time and whip you with it but don't you dare go back more than 20 days.

She is extremely verbally abusive. No matter what I am wrong. My feelings thoughts and actions are all wrong.... PERIOD

I can not get past my past. That was how the previous 18 months of not drinking went in 2007.

I know what I need to do and am in the process. Move out. Airtight PLB. I thought I could live in the house with WW until the D is final. I am beat up and about hopeless.

Nesre

I am so sorry this is happening to you, but I know you know what to do. I think with you gone, she will have a chance to hit bottom. That is the best medicine. She is very, very entitled and has somehow managed to maintain that attitude for a very long time. The best thing you can do is protect yourself legally and get out of her path of destruction. You can't change her and I promise she will just get worse.

p.s. IMO, PLAN B is the perfect plan for an alcoholic. In it you can set out your conditions. While she is too foggy to get it now, she may get it in the future.

Not gonna hold my breath.

Thanks Mel

Nesre

I should have said "Plan B is perfect for the SPOUSE of the alcoholic." It won't change her, but it will protect you. Good luck, Nesre!

Nesre,

Thanks for chiming in on my thread, I'm kind of in a weak plan-B right now of my own with my WW, not talking with her while I'm on the road and running from home every chance I get. (skiing with my boys in Colorado)

I'm in such a better place than you just because the kids are all out of the house, and you are having to make some huge sacrifices for the DD. I believe she graduates in May, and I hope you have enough in you to make it the next 5 months.

I have to say I have enjoyed the distance I have had, it has helped me recover some but I'm light years from being thru with this nightmare. I'm sure you can find a way to hide from your WW and avoid some of the venom she is spewing.

I wish I had answers for you , I can only say that I think the investment in your DD will pay dividends in the end.

Hand in there!!!!