I'd get that woman in the car and travel somewhere, even if it were just a two hour drive. Longer if possible, of course.

Why drive? Don't get it.

Went for counseling today....will fill in details tonight. Communication is good.

She wants travel. Day trips are a form of travel.

Distraction and change of scenery....escapism!!!!

Your wife has used "escapism" into the affair as a crutch against her depression and misery for quite some time now.

Without the crutch of the affair she's miserable again.

Since she's not gonna get it TODAY...

Partake in some "escapism" TOGETHER while you Plan A her.

For example, Mrs. W and I actually went out and partied some like we did when we first met in our 20's. She wasn't much fun at all getting ready and I had to plan the whole thing and arrange babysitting but once we actually got out and loosened up a bit (a couple beers)...things were somewhat fun.

withdrawing waywards CAN party...

Might not be what you want to do (which is have serious talks and figure everything out right away) but that's not possible yet..

Another way I looked at things back then. If the summer of 2005 was going to be my last summer married to Mrs. W and as a family, I wasn't going to waste it. We were going to have FUN (as a couple and as a family). Besides, the more money you spend the less available to split up later IF YOU END UP DIVORCED.

Mr. W

Got it..travel good. She doesn't want to do 'anything' that gives me 'hope' (i.e. be like a family or couple) but our counselor today told her to act normal and not base her behavior on whether or not it gives me hope.

More about the appointment. I think it was positive for a few reasons. First of all, we talked. 2 hour drive there, 1.5 hour session and 2 hour drive back home. Session was basically information getting and her getting her complaints out (which I owned and agreed). She did say there was 'no hope' in her mind at making this marriage work. However, we talked about my feelings, the affair, how it made me feel, give me time to process, etc. That we needed to get these issues in the open for anything to happen, including raising our daughter (together or separate). Counselor did say we cannot do anything when only one spouse wants to work it out.

However, on our drive home, we talked lots. She cried, she aired out some resentments from the past, we talked about the OM and my feelings towards him and that situation. We did 'hug' outside of the counselor office (I initiated it, but she hugged back which is the first contact in 6.5 weeks). She was sad, but I told her I loved her no matter what.

We talked religion on our way home and I told her I had accepted Jesus in my heart last week, but did not tell her because afraid she would think it was fake. She asked me "didn't that feel amazing' and I agreed that it did - I could not go through all this alone and needed a higher power to help. She said how she prayed for years for me to change, but I never did. I told her that her prayer had come true, now I have changed...her prayers worked. Also told her that she was an amazing woman and who would not want her (unfortunately, that was a conversation about OM, but still, compliment was mine). I am 'dropping seeds' and hoping that they will grow inside of her sometime soon...someone here on these forums suggested that. I am not faking it either..all these things I tell her are genuine..so it is easy to do.

I dropped her off at work after the appointment. She called me on her way home to 'complain' about being stuck in traffic (I'm ecstatic she is calling me and feeling safe talking to me). I had dinner ready for her (and a drink because I felt she needed one) and was feeding baby when she got
home. I was complimenting baby and my wife said it hurt bad whenever I did that because she wanted compliments all along. I told her the compliments I have been giving lately are all real and I meant every word..she burst out crying saying 'I can't believe any of it' which to me, is a positive because that means perhaps, one day, she WILL be able to believe it. I stood up, gave her a kiss on the cheek and hugged her neck from behind while she cried for a few seconds. It just felt right ... she is still my wife and I still LOVE her dearly.

She asked if the session was good for me and I told her 'it was good for us.' She said "I am still not changing my mind" to which I answered that "I did not expect it to, but am glad that we were able to go and talk."

She was visibly sad and worn out from the day a little bit ago. I asked if she needed me to do anything and she said no.
My sister in law said she may be angry for the next two days or so because she is 'confused' inside after what she is seeing from me and hearing from me...could be?

So, overall, a tough day, but there are some signs around her talk of 'no way' that give me hope. Anyone see that? Any comments on the day?

IG:

That sounds REAL GOOD.

She is seeing the changes.

Your doing things that you should have done years ago. But thats ok. Your doing them. Just state that she can go, but you will still be doing these things, because they are the *right* thing to do.

And that you hope that SHE will benefit from these changes.

LG

I have been following your thread because your situation has a lot of similarities to mine. I know that you are looking for any small sign of hope and ignoring the larger negative signs. So in your head you question if there really is hope. From the outside looking in, I think you have a lot of good things going on right now. If I had your day yesterday, I would be jumping for joy. Try to look at her actions and ignor her words. When she says she isn't going to change her mind, she means it. But we never know we are going to change our mind until we do. The important thing is she is sad about the end of your marriage and she is allowing you to see that. Your WW seemed to warm up a bit yesterday. That's awesome, keep it up. Don't get discouraged if she pulls back again. She will likely recognize her conflicted emotions and resolve to stick to her plan. I think things might be looking up for you.

Thank you SOT...I needed those words of encouragement. I read your post twice and teared up each time..this is not easy, but thank you all for the words.

Last night, nothing eventful. I left in the evening to stop by work for a few minutes and went to a friends house for a bit. When I came back, I said hello to her (she was in the guest room reading some papers) and then went to our room. She 'sort of' smiled. Before bed, I went to say goodnight and she told me her plans for today (her doctors appointment, remember). I asked if she needed anything, to let me know. Woke up early this morning, made her some coffee to take with her...she said thank you, told me her plans again and I told her to drive safe. That is all thus far.

I'll have dinner ready again when she comes home tonight. Hope and pray for the best.

She met my daughter and I at the museum this afternoon (I emailed her..told her we were going and that if she was off work early enough, we would love her to join us). SHE LOOKED BAD when she walked in. I asked her if she was OK and she nodded no and told me she had a bad day. I told her if there was anything I could do or if she wanted to talk, let me know.

Regardless, had a good time with daughter..wife talked a bit, but she is clearly distraught. Even teared up a few times on her own.

So, either she is:

1. At extreme withdrawal from OM (been 4 weeks tomorrow since last contact). What are the steps through this for her?

2. The counseling session yesterday stirred up some emotions that she is not comfortable dealing with.

OR both?

Thoughts? All according to textbook, just makes me feel better 'knowing' what is going on. Thanks all.

What were the "issues" that came out in the MC?

You say it has been 4 weeks since NC with OM? You think she might be having withdrawals? This is so weird because I never experienced withdrawals when I came back home, when I got home I was 150% on boat fixing the marriage, how committed is she?

Most go through withdrawal, you were probably just the exception rather than the rule.

Right now, based on her words, she is 100% NOT-committed to saving the marriage. She wants the OM..and thinks there is a future with him (again, in words).

Issues that came up in counseling were basic things that I had done during our marriage, which I fully own up to (not putting her first before my parents, talking down to her at times, saying angry and hurtful things while arguing, etc - all things I admit that I did, have been working on diligently in the past 6 weeks - did not disagree with her once). Still NO justification for affair I know, but right now, I am trying to save my family - I can forgive the affair).

Actions....slight actions, show a different side of her coming back (texting me during the day, calling me to complain about work, traffic, etc). ALL very different behavior than she was showing me 6 weeks ago. Hope? Who knows....I hang on to all I can. Like SOT said, no one knows that their mind will change until it changes. Her sadness, crying, tonight 'not feeling well' - all could be either missing OM or trying to fight her feelings towards me....something is changing or moving in her.

If she has privacy at work to contact OM, then I'd guess she's been in contact this whole time but that the affair is imploding. Often once the secret is out (and attorney's advise her to end contact) and they can't be in contact 24/7 by phone, email, chat, text nor have personal booty meetings...the affair crumbles. It just becomes too much drama and trouble for the single OM's to maintain without the payoff (cheap adulterous dirty secret sex).

Thus...the tears. (over OM)

Sorry...just my take but you MAY be at week one of "no contact".

Just keep doing what you are doing. You may be at a point in your process where you can get your wife to do more and more with you. When she says she doesn't want to get your hopes up or avoids serious talks...just agree with her and TRY to divert to having a good time. In 2005 I got to a point where I just said "if this is going to be our last summer together I want to get to know this different person I'm seeing in front of me AND have a pleasant summer". For me and our daughter I told her I didn't want to look back at our last summer as an intact family and regret not making some memories. Thus...like your museum adventure...I got my wife (and sometimes my daughter too) out and about.

Of course, I was still trying to save the marriage but I didn't have to go about it by forcing it. I just trusted the things I had read here about feelings following actions and tried to be, to the best of my ability, the happy go lucky confident fun guy she'd fallen in love with 10 years prior.

Remember...a wayward wife is operating on a high school girl mentality and the pathetic ex-boyfriend NEVER gets the girl BACK after she dumps him. You can't control her choices...only your own so don't try to force it. Control what you can (yourself) and let the rest just happen or not....her loss.

Either way...YOU will be OK.

Mr. Wondering

Mr Wondering...from your first post on here until now, thank you.

I have felt pretty good for a few days now...right now, I am feeling back 'down in the dumps.' I know she is feeling bad and I cannot stand to see my wife like that, so I made her a drink, brought it to her....no thank you, no nothing. This is NOT my wife in the other room. Emotional roller coaster just took a drop for me.

BUT, I will not take it personally and will keep doing what I have been doing. Period. It is good for me. It is good for my daughter. Writing this down helps me stay strong.

Well...how are YOU doing?

Have you been taking care of yourself?

Part of Plan A is controlling and revitalizing YOU, to make yourself more attractive and confident as you attempt to attract your wife back to your family (or prepare for single life beyond divorce)

r u losing weight (without looking gaunt or weak)?

How's business? You are still the man of the house and despite your world falling apart...you've got to tend to your responsibilities as long term...your children and hopefully your wife are depending on it. The future's gonna happen regardless of the outcome.

Seems somewhere you said it was YOUR business. If you are a business owner there are strategies, such as stocking up on huge amounts of inventory and supplies, which can minimize your cash position (and income) such that within the divorce process the realization by your wife that she's not gonna get paid off as much as she thought can have a saving effect. I'm not suggesting destroying the business at all...just moving around numbers from the net income line up the balance sheet to the inventory and supplies ASSET lines.

Mr. Wondering

Thank you for asking. Actually, am doing well. People say I look and sound much better these weeks than the first few weeks. I eat well, I sleep well. Losing weight..nah, about the same.

Yes, I do own my own business. These weeks, I have not felt like doing much, but business is great and I have a loyal staff that knows 'something is not right at home' so they are taking over and giving me the leeway to not work much. Basically, when I am there, I am usually on the phone venting about this...makes me feel better.

As for moving stuff around, I see...not at that stage yet, but yes, I see what you are saying. Waiting for the reality check to kick in for her...or the prayers to start working...something, anything.....ugh, this sucks.

Place more importance on what she is doing with you then saying about OM.

She has to go through withdrawals.

Had convinced herself that OM was better then you.

Now she has to unsell her sell all the baloney that she sold herself that the OM was better then you so she can comeback to the marriage.

This all takes time. Keep plan A'ing her, monitor for NC sit tight, weather the storm.

Thank you again..weathering the storm. Correct.

This morning, I say a bright and cheery good morning. She 'explains' to me what she was doing last night on the computer when I went to give her a drink (reading books, writing down notes about co-parenting, etc). I tell her that I was not wondering and it was not a problem. She said 'past performance' tells me that you would have..I told her that I agreed, in the past I would have mentioned or harped on it, but I didn't last night and I wasn't today. Then she told me how her mother last night and her got 'into it' for the affair and her mother was afraid that people would make her look bad - so my wife 'blamed' me for telling her mother telling me I had no right to tell her. I stayed calm, told her that I wish this would have never happened, I did not apologize for telling anyone, but I never intended, then or now, to hurt her (my wife) or make her angry.

Then she brought how it annoyed her when I could not remember things..like when she asked me the last time I talked to our sister in law - I told her I really don't remember exact, but it was one time this week. She keeps thinking I lie through omission...I told her not now, nor before did I ever intentionally lie to her.

I equate this to a criminal - they always think someone is going to steal from them because THAT IS WHAT THEY DO. So, this wife that had an affair thinks that everything I do has a lie or cheat attached to it. Not fair huh?

During breakfast, I needed a 'break' from her attacks...so I went into the bedroom and typed here. When I came back, she asked what I was doing and I told her I was writing down my thoughts and reading verses..which is true. She said "before you would just verbally attack me" to which I answered 'perhaps, but now I just need a few minutes to cool, collect my thoughts and writing is a way for me to do that. That sometimes things were overwhelming to me now and I am doing the best I can since my new behavior is not intuitive and I am constantly learning.'

Oh well, part of the process...and yes, I will weather the storm with a strong front and hope the storm passes over soon. This is easier said than done of course, but I have gained much patience in the past weeks.....

Let me know if all this is normal and if I handled it well. Thanks.

Here is some very good advice I was given in the past by someone that I respect.

Detach.
MB is a set of proven techniques that can accelerate the end of an affair, and can manage BS hurt. It is not a way to force your WW to do anything. You have to realize that whether you have a GREAT MB day or a bad one, the decision to stay or go will be made at a near-subconscious level by your WW. So concentrate on your plan A without worrying that you are making things worse. Things can't get worse than having an entitled WW looking to D you.

2. Once you have detached you can start working with the tools you HAVE.
You need to invest in yourself - recognize the habits you got into that were not productive in husbandry and change them. Also identify those emotional needs that your WW has that you can meet under the current difficult circumstances and do it.

Note that it is not the direct focus of your WW that will notice the changes for the better in you, it will be her heart's "peripheral vision". Consistency of goodness, unsung is what overcomes the WS active rewriting of history and casting you as a baddie in their movie. Its not about gestures.

Unlock the door.
I know this sounds crazy. But its only a PRETEND lock you have on the door to your marriage right now.

Tell your WW "look baby, I love you and I'll work as hard as I possibly can on building a new marriage with you if you want, but I won't force you to.I want you, but I do not need you. If you divorce me or continue your affair I'll be sad,but I will survive. I respect myself too much to tolerate what I perceive to be disrespect and indignity for very long, as much as I want this marriage. You need to do what you think is right"

More stuff tonight, but I believe I handled myself great.

Came in for a talk...she told me how 'years' ago, she had begun to distance herself. How I would constantly 'bash her ideas' and argue with what she would tell me. She would 'let it go' to avoid conflict. How she knew that 'she wanted something different.' I asked her if it was often, and she said no, but when it was, it was bad. I told her how all marriages had ups and downs..and she said 'no, not this bad.'

Every day this weekend, she told me stuff that bothered her in the past. I would agree with her feelings and tell her I could see why that upset her, etc. She had mentioned how I used to be a 'jeckle and hyde' personality - a jerk at times, nice at times and oblivious at times. I asked her how often, and she said 1/3 of the time for each. I asked her if oblivious me was also a jerk to which she said 'no, just here.' So that is an improvement, I was only 'mean' 1/3 of the time in her eyes. She even mentioned that 'usually, I would not let her voice this' to which I agreed. Then she said she didn't even know who she was living with anymore as I was so different and it 'freaked her out.'

She also brought up the exposure again and how angry, childish, etc. it was that I told people. I told her I wished I had nothing to tell anyone and that I could never apologize for that. She started to argue when I stopped her. Told her that we could not have this conversation as there was no way one of us would not get their feelings hurt and there was no compromise available in this discussion at this time. No middle ground here available.

I told her my changes were real and for myself (not to push her to think I am just faking these changes to get her back). I also told her that while I would LOVE to have us together, I would be 'ok' without her. That I knew I could not 'change her mind for her.' I would survive. She always thinks that all I say or do is to keep us together so I have to let her know that I 'can' make it.

Lots of stuff. She clearly has lots of built up resentment and anger as well that needs to be dealt with, for her sake if not for our marriage. At the end, she felt it was getting too much so she said 'time out' and went to her room. Normally, I would follow or ask to finish conversation, but I let her go freely. That is something I would have never done before. All these changes have to be confusing to her..this is not the same argument, discussion, level headedness of husband she had before..this is new territory (for both of us).

All fog-babble? Am I handling it well? All my support group of friends that I speak with tell me I am handling this excellently, much better than they could and that I am basically doing 'all I can do.' I agree....thanks to the tips and information I have learned from here.

Thoughts? I am glad she is speaking, but seems like all she says is trying to 'convince' herself that she is making a rational and long-time coming decision....