ITA that Gdar's H is immature and self centered but having waded through this thread, I also think that she has not made home a safe, welcoming place to be. Her posts reek of DJs. I keep a copy of Love Busters by my bed and reread chapters of it weekly to curb my tendency to browbeat my DH into being the H that I need and every day I strive to be the W he needs. My effort encourages his.

Gdar hated his friends and his mother long before the adultery. One of his last e-mails almost begged to find a way to keep these important friends in his life. If they did not condone, support or enable his EA, I believe that I would try to POJA a way to help him enjoy their company in his own home.

Bring on the 2X4s but I think that she must take a good hard look at her contributions to the state of this M and make some serious personal changes while she lays out what she expects from her H and makes his compliance a requirement for continuing their M. A D will be much more difficult to afford than counseling with the Harleys.

God's blessings,

Say

If she doesn't like the friends, then the solution is not to invite them in her home, but for him to dump them. POJA is supposed to be a mutually enthuiastic decision, not one where she has to endure his unpleasant friends. That will only lead to more unhappiness.

I do agree that POJA is PART of the solution, but they need to use the entire program, not just fiddle around the edges.

I hope my words were nice enough. Saying nice words is not one of my priorities. Rather, communicating in a clear, concise manner that serves to help others is my priority. If you want "nice words" call your momma.

ML you're my fav lol....

G- I wholeheartedly agree with what others are saying. You keep asking for the right words to fix this. I'll restate what I said yesterday. You CANNOT find the right words because there are no right words. Only ACTION will change this. You CANNOT coerce, cajole or compel him to be the husband you want. You just can't.

He treats you badly because you allow yourself to be treated badly. End of story.

When you stand up for yourself with actions and boundaries THEN he will respect you. If you talk at him, you're just gonna be a nagging talking head - he'll say whatever he has to to get you to shut up and continue doing what he wants to do. THAT is why POJA has never worked in the past.


THIS is what you need to do. However, you need to be willing to back it. You need to be willing to walk if he doesn't agree. Or else you are agreeing to endure his abuse indefinitely.

Your husband is an UNREPENTANT, FOGGY, ABUSIVE WAYWARD!!! He will find someone else to cheat with eventually, because he has no personal boundaries or protections against it.

He can only abuse and neglect you as long as you allow it. Go back and reread your last few posts. Do you see how he has beaten you down? you don't even feel you have a right to your emotions! You feel guilty for even bringing it up! You contemplated a three-some because somehow he convinced you that his EA was your fault for not having a spicy enough sex life.

People treat you the way you allow yourself to be treated. YOU have taught your husband that it's ok to treat you this way. And he will keep treating you this way because you have already said you will not stand up for yourself, you wont do what it takes to stop the abuse. Oh you'll talk and give lip service to how miserable you are, but you'll keep putting up with it. Your actions are undermining EVERY complaint you give him. You've abdicated your power here - and you're asking us for the magic words to fix it. They don't exist.

In case there's any misunderstanding - that's an affair!

I recognize everyone in this thread may get that, but I wanted to spell it out just in case.

There may be lurkers who could benefit, too.

Kissing, dating, courting others while married - that's an affair. Overnights with others while married - that's an affair.

It's an affair even if they don't have sex.

You don't get to DATE other people when you are married, and all of that is DATING.

It's not just that the above actions MIGHT BECOME an affair. The above actions ARE an affair.

Also, he is a current wayward, not a former wayward.

The procedure for current waywards is Plan A followed by Plan B. Or divorce, if you'd rather (which often starts out the same as Plan B).

Most people can only Plan A for 3-4 weeks.

I agree with this...is your home a sanctuary for DH or a place of more stress? Right now it needs to be a place he wants to come home to or he will want to hang out with his Loser friend more.

Gdar's H's idea of a sanctuary is no kids around to deal with and a extra woman on hand for a 3some.....I don't see HOW she can meet the requirements here....also they have to be in the garage drinking beer thru the process.

Sorry this I do not agree with.....she can cook nice meals, she can have the home clean, she can talk all sweet to him....and he still would rather be in that garage drinking with his buddy....the problem is with the H on this one....he is emotionally detached from his W & kids....he sees them as the source more stress....he isn't happy with the marriage/kids thing...he is cleaving to single life fantasy....yet he signed up for marriage/kids. I would think the contrast effect is what is happening here... Dr.H talks about that....it happens when you spend your most enjoyable moments with someone other than your spouse...that other person deposits large love bank deposits and you become even more emotionally attached to them instead of your spouse.

I agree, gem. The house is burning down because of the CURRENT and ONGOING affair. The fire in the "house" (the marriage, that is) has to be put out before worrying about what kind of carpet to have or what color to paint it.

I agree - her husband is unrepentant and wayward. She's been doing an uneducated Plan A for years now. Sure she has LBs she needs to work out - thats why I advise cleaning up her side of the street. She can work on that and maybe Plan A for another few weeks, a perfect, stellar Plan A. But this situation cannot continue on indefinitely. She must be willing to separate from him if he continues to not protect his marriage from infidelity, if he continues in his wayward, entitled lifestyle.

Uneducated Plan A's that last years really do damage to people.

Ask me how I know.

That's how many of us are when we show up on this site, I think.

But the first thing we need to find out is what we're doing wrong (even if we are MB "experts" - I was a 7 year student of Marriage Builders with 6 years of experience. Wrong experience.) and get real expert advice on how to execute it correctly so that it'll get better.

Dr. Harley wrote this about marriage counseling, but I'd say it might apply to board coaching as well:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.html

"From the third session on, you're guided by the treatment plan that you agreed to follow. Each week you report your successes and failure to the counselor. He/she guides you through the emotional minefields, motivational swamps and creative wildernesses. If your counselor is right for you, you'll come to like and respect him/her more and more as time goes by. You'll see your marriage improve in fits and starts. Some weeks will be blissful while others will be unbearable."

Also:

"There's no point to treatment before a treatment plan is completed. Poorly organized counselors will often see clients for weeks before they get down to deciding how they'll proceed. During that time, the crisis is over and the motivation to solve the problem is postponed until the next crisis. The couple drops out of therapy no wiser or better off than they came. To avoid that tragic end, a counselor must focus on a treatment plan immediately, while the couple is still motivated to do something about their problem."

"I usually try to schedule the second appointment for no more than a week later. If possible, I try to see the couple within a few days. This is because they are usually suffering from their problems and would like relief as soon as possible" (Note that imminent relief is realistic, according to Dr. Harley. Not perfection, but some relief!)

IMO, the problem with advising Gdar to focus on her own LBers and "her side of the street" is that she already is in denial/distracted from what the real issues are here relating to her WH.

Meeting ENs and avoiding LBers doesnt exist in a vacuum. It's cyclical ~ and her ability to do these things has probably eroded over the last two years as her H isn't meeting her needs and is commiting major lovebusters....

Also, as Steve told me, in his experience the BS will have trouble meeting ENs and avoiding LBers when the WS hasn't "protected" the BS by instituting NC, EPs and transparency...obviously a big factor here.

Maybe she will be able refocus her efforts on doing a stellar job meeting his needs and not LBing ~ but it's a very temporary fix if he doesn't get onboard.

That's more what I'm talking about - a true Plan A preparing for a Plan B. Something that will last no more than a few weeks.

I agree that Plan B is appropriate. But I don't think she is doing Plan A at all; rather plan "C", for compromise. Dr Harley says that is the most likely program to lead to divorce.

The problem here is not Gdar's "DJs" but her H's abusive behavior and his refusal to engage in anything resembling recovery. Sure, she commits some LB's, but so does a rape victim when she is being raped. The focus should be on stopping the rape and implementing the program as a WHOLE.

I'll defer to your experience here ML. My gut is telling me she needs to stand up for herself and go into a Plan B.

Problem: G has flat out said she wont do it... so I guess the only other option is to put up with the status quo.

All very valid points, Stella - from the outside looking in.

When we were dating, I was a single mom with an ex H in Iraq. It was not just me to himself and then all of a sudden he had to deal with my kids. Like baggage. He is great with my kids, providing consistent discipline, guidance and acceptance. It has never been Mine, Yours and Yours. From the beginning it has been all of us. I told him from the very first date that I am a package deal, and if that is something he is not comfortable with, then... I am not the right person for him. He arranged for a child therapist for my kids to deal with their father being overseas and for the transition of him into their lives.

So, no, I do not feel like I owe him. I have never felt that way, but I certain many women do - I just do not happen to be one of them. Appreciate, yes.

You say above that he never wanted kids. ? Why would he propose to me if he did not want a woman with children? I was the one who DID NOT want any more kids, actually. It was not until after he proposed, that he brought up that he wants kids of his own, as well. He thought it would help understand my kids better as well, if he experienced being a father from the beginning. That is how we came to have our own children.

Say, thank you and I agree. I am still waiting on that LB book - any day now! I am very excited to get learning!

I will be on the MB radio show tomorrow with Bill and Joyce. I emailed her last night and she called me first thing this morning! She wanted me to go on today, but I have been gone all day with preschool end-of year party stuff and chasing the 2 yr old.

I fully accept that my H does not feel home is a safe place to be. We talked about this last night. I told him I can understand how he feels coming home is just more work. I do not want it to be, but I am having a really, really hard time finding ways to change it. I have been so busy meeting his needs the past 2 years, almost frantically, that I am completely burnt out. I imagine if he was O&H with me, and would tell me I was NOT meeting his needs, I could have something to go off of. Last night he said the only need he has right now is leaving to go see his friends. Because he sees coming home and giving me the time that our M has not been receiving is too much work. And he does not have the time.

So that is where I am at. I am looking for the suggestions, I will do my reading. I honestly think it is a LB of his for me to be reading these books. He always makes a comment about it when he sees one. He does not read them. He skimmed through 2 of the handful I have, but I cannot make him read them, so ... I have thoughtfully requested, but...

I need and appreciate it. No worries. I understand I come across as lost, weak and submissive. That is what I have become. I do not like it, I would like to change it. I have a long road ahead of me. I really liked me before I got married.

He told me last night that coming home to a house full of kids and the reminder that he works his butt off is just adding more stress. He said he was at his limit stress-wise and he simply NEEDS to go and get away before he explodes.

So I agree, he does not feel home is a sanctuary. I feel that keeping it clean, kids taken care of, food on the table and sex once they hit the hay was what he wanted and needed, but last night told me otherwise. When I asked if he had any suggestions of how things could be improved, I got "I don't know". I am confused. This is why I don't like sharing with him how I feel because he just sees it as more stress. If I DONT tell him, then I get full of resentment. He said that he wishes I would have told him how I was feeling about the OW earlier, but it had only been a few days. I waited a bit, hoping he would tell me, and when it became clear to me he was not, I brought it up. So in one breath I hear "this is all too stressful" and the next "I wish you would just tell me how you feel" and I AM!