OK, some of you remember me, and I have very high regards for many who post here. It is true that I feel that my husband has painted a very ugly picture of me, and while he has told no UNtruths, he has left out very significant parts which has led some to believe that I am an addict and am purposefully gaslighting him and sabatoging our M. Nothing can be further from the truth. From the first night I came on here (ahead of W2S)to get help, I accepted that help - 2x4s and all. I changed in many, many ways and then spent months working very hard to ammend my mistakes and help others in the same situation. Those who truly know me, know that I do not have a problem owning my faults - we all have them and I am no exception. I have only ever wanted to save my M and have worked very hard, both in the past and now to overcome my/our issues and move forward.

Cake-eater? No. Addict? No. Although if this is what my husband thinks of me, I will join a program. That's cool - I will do it to assuage any doubts that he has that I will never go back to smoking. May I address one part of this issue, however? I stopped smoking before I came to MB and did not go back to it for a long time. When I DID go back, not only did I approach W2S and ask his permission (and he gave it), he went so far as to say (it was right before Christmas) that he was thinking about buying us some for Christmas. He had always smoked with me in the past, and his efforts to paint a different picture now tells me that this quite possibly just another part of me that he has found to take exception to, and has obsessed about it to the point of making it the focus of our current problems.

Going back a bit, before I started smoking again- I was disctinctly aware that W2S had never forgiven me. It was apparent in everything he said to me, the way he looked at me, his insistance that my A had permanently changed the way he views love and that would never change. No matter what I did, he would always be "jaded." Those were his words, and he just said them to me again today. I plugged along regardless, meeting every need he had, and stopping AOs and DJs, and hoping with everything in me that with time, this would change. It didn't. I have never felt the kind of love from him that I so desperately crave. I begged him for it. I asked him time and time again to just tell me if he felt he couldn't forgive me and we would just end the M. I understand that some, actually most, cannot forgive this kind of betrayal, and that is absolutey their right. However, I told him that I did not want to end up hating each other in the end. We were both counselling with a couple of highly respected members here who had become friends to us both, and who told him to stop punishing me, to work on things that he needed to fix, that it was obvious I was willing to do whatever it took to help him, etc. Most importantly, though, they told him that he would have to forgive me if we were to save our M. Nothing changes, though, and they both told me to "pack his bags." They saw no hope beyond ME going into Plan B or D. That he would keep going for that "pound of flesh" until we hated each other. I stopped posting and talking to anyone but him at that point, and once again decided that the only way we could move foward was to just leave eveything associated with the A behind, including MB. Everyone was tired of hearing us both complain, and I certainly cannot blame them. I have always been a strong believer that if you are unhappy with your life - change it or stop whining about it, but I had become that person!

I feel that my choice to go back to smoking was an attempt to fill a void. Of course, it didn't work - it never does. After a few months, W2S came to me and asked me to quit. He said this was yet another trigger, and that it was making him unhappy. At that point, I believed that nothing would ever be enough. I felt that his opposition to me smoking was another attempt by him to take away something I enjoyed. Of course, I realize this is a DJ in and of itself - you can never know someone's intentions unless they come out and tell you truthfully. I didn't "laugh at him" and tell him to "suck it up and get over it" as some have said -I simply told him that sure I could quit - but what would the next thing be that I needed to change in order for him to forgive me and for him to be happy again? And the next thing, and the next... All the while believing at that point (and still today) that he will never forgive me. That he does not want to devastate our boys and so he hangs on, despite all my horrible flaws and abusive nature (this is what he conveys on a daily basis and is what Not2Fun has been trying to get him to address).

Right now I am just so tired of feeling like nothing is ever enough, that yes, tst - even though I quit smoking and took down the FB page, he still felt the need to come on here and talk about ME, nothing about HIS ROLE in what has happened the past couple years. Nothing about what I've done to better my life, nothing about all the work I have done to this point. Only the bad - that is always the focus. For example, he is still bring up MUCH form the past that is so irrelevant to today, it is unbelievable to me. Did you know that I have had another job for the last 2 years and that 2 months ago I was promoted to Office Manager and Sales Manager and am now making as much money as him? I make double what I ever have in the past (one of his top needs is financial support)! Of course you don't know that, because all he is talking about is what happened at my past job FOUR YEARS AGO! This is just one exmple, and as this post is getting very long (sorry!!) already, so I'll wrap it up.

One last thing - the FB page. All I can say for myself is SHEESH and YIKES just as everyone else has. While it is NO JUSTIFICATION, I have to say that I thought the M was completely over. We were both looking fr a lawyer, and the fights were horrendous. Things were said that were extremely painful on BOTH our parts. I saw the hatred in his eyes. I sought out friendships out of desperation because I was trying to build up a support system for the impending D. I have very few friends, as all of my free time is spent with my family, and I was very, very scared of being completely alone. The boyfriends to which he is referring, well - one is gay and the other is happily married. The latter was actually someone I was friends with for a long, long time after we broke up. One of my friends told me he had been looking for me to get on FB to say hi and see if I was OK since it had been years since we had spoken. There was ONE exchange with the both of them - hi, how are ya, etc and even though I didn't realize W2S even knew I was on FB, I never spoke to either of them again... Like I said, not an excuse, but I really don't want it to seem like it was a BLATANT attemp to hurt W2S again. Although I realize now that it DID hurt him and betrayed his trust, it was not done for that reason.

Sorry this is so long, but there was quite a bit to address. I'll leave it at this for now. I promised W2S today that I will work a program. Then we will work the MB plan TOGETHER this time because I can no longer do it alone. Regardless of what he claims, that is the way it has been to this point - him telling me what I need to change, but flatly refusing to meet my needs or make any changes regarding any valid complaints I have had - even LONG BEFORE I started smoking again.


Thanks for listening, and I appreciate your help!

LaLa, perhaps the problem with W2S's not being satisfied with what you do is the attitude that you may present to him, along with possibly demonstrating any resentment that you may feel for having to give up certain things because of your affair.

Did you ever consider that?

I'm glad you posted, and I DO want you and W2S to fully recover your marriage and be gloriously happy together.

That's a nice explanation Lala.

But frankly

I DON'T REALLY CARE.

The only part I cared about was the part where you agreed to work the MB program this time.

The reason I don't really care about your explanation is you said you would do whatever it would take for as long as it would take and you didn't!

Sure, except that my change in attitude and resentment didn't start until a few months ago, after two years of recovery and no change from him. He had dug in his heels and no matter how hard I tried it was never enough. A couple months would go by and I would feel like things were finally getting back to normal and then I would find out he had told others how awful our M was and how unhappy he was. I was completely blind-sighted by his post the other day. FLOORED! I had quit 2-1/2 months ago, and here he was throwing it out there like it's still going on, and then not telling the whole story, blaming me for everything...AGAIN! Do you know I had no idea he had been seeking advice for months and emailing people off board talking about divorcing me until this morning? I feel so utterly sucker-punched! Why didn't he come to ME??!! We had working things out again after I quit smoking, and I thought everything was back to "normal" (whatever that means - LOL) and then I get a call from N2F saying: "WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED!!" I'm like "huh??"

To me, that's being open-and-honest in the M. I dunno...

Thanks for your post, though, and thanks for your support of our M!!

Has SMB forgiven you, tst? Does she look at you with hate in her eyes still? Has she blatantly refused to meet your needs for months and years? As romantic as it sounds to pretend any FW (including yourself) would be just fine with endless reparations and no needs being met, it's unrealistic. And BTW- NOT THE MB WAY!! I am more than willing to do my part (as I have, and I still AM), but it takes 2 to fix a M.

Your posts to W2S based on only his side spoke volumes. And one more thing - I have NEVER EVER "not agreed" to work the program.

I'll be back later but man, Lala ~ this is a foggy post. I'm rather shocked.

I asked this the first night I was here and I'll ask now - what is foggy about it specifically? I spoke the absolute truth. I know you have heard so much of one side of this story that it may be hard to believe me - which is why I didn't want to post in the first place. W2S made sure with his posts that anything I said would sound like a fogged-out mess. Those who know the whole story were just as shocked as I was at his post.

I'm sorry you see it that way.

BTW MF - your last post to W2S was what gave me the last push to post - thanks for reaching out.

Lala, my FWH and I are doing extremely well...it's been a long, hard road and it's been painful. We've been working the MB program and honestly our relationship is better than ever.

And guess what? I still have not fully forgiven him...it's coming but it's a work in progress. From your post I can see why W2S has not been able to forgive you fully either. Sorry if that's harsh but I'm not into sugar-coating things.

Do you see the insane justifications in your above quote? "He hasn't forgiven me so I turned to getting high". Holy cow, I would be divorced by now if that was my FWH's response to me not "forgiving him" by now. How childish, not to mention the blameshifting.


So what? During our recovery, my FWH and I smoked more than a few times...together (I don't need to hear it from anyone, it was stupid and no way am I justifying it). We did it TOGETHER and if my H came and asked me if he could continue, I would have only said yes out of fear that he would be angry at me for saying no. Do you think this could have been the case? (not saying this is ok, I believe W2S is a huge conflict avoider and that's been a big problem in your M).

Additionaly ~ IF my H continued to do it even after he knew I was unhappy about it, I cannot imagine the hurt, anger and RAGE I would feel. His A was selfish enough and drained my LB$ into the red already. What could you possibly have been thinking to continue to do this??? Do you WANT him to hate you?


I actually feel angry at you for saying this. Sound harsh? This is so freaking foggy I can't even believe it!!!

Really?? You were meeting "every need he had"? I sincerely doubt it. You stopped the AOs and DJs? I don't think so ~ he has repeatedly said you have been moping and pouting about this pot issue for a while.

Additionally ~ do you know that your pot-smoking and other IBs are BIG, FAT, HUGE LBers??? Any "needs" you were meeting are completely wiped out by the big hole you have in his LB$ for you. You know how MB works and this is MB 101.


OMG...honestly, if my FWH said this to me even now, I would be filing for D and we've been in recovery longer than you have. "Nothing is ever enough"???? For cripes sake, are you serious??? This is insane and I cannot believe a "F"WW like yourself is saying this.

So, what's HIS ROLE? Beside enabling you, that is? What's he done that is so bad that you feel entitled to say this? He's the BS, remember??? He is still bleeding and the cannonball wound you delivered to him has never been repaired, not even close and you have the nerve to say this?

Lala, a few years ago if you had read this from a fellow FWW you would have gone ballistic. What's happened to you????


Kind of like how your choice to have an A didn't fill that void either? Do you see the connection here and more importantly...do you see how this would trigger W2S???


Another excuse and more justification for trashing your EPs. I want to scream at you right now. You were fighting?? Who gives a cr*p!!! You are still married!!! Gee whiz, don't you get it? It's your job to protect your M no matter WHAT.

Another MB 101 Basic Concept and you've failed this one too and then you dare to wonder why W2S isn't meeting your needs?

I honestly wonder if you've lost your mind. And I'm shocked that W2S hasn't....I know I would have if my H posted fog-cr*p like this after being in "recovery" as long as you supposedly have.

I am very angry, frustrated and disappointed in you, Lala. This post of yours is shocking.

I'm glad it helped and now you're probably going to be p*ssed as h*ll at me after my post to you but I don't care...your M and your boys are way more important to me than any little fit you are going to have at my post.

Sorry it's so harsh but I'm reeling from it.

LaLa

Great to have you back again! Everytime I see In The WW Mind bumped on the forum I look and see if you were there. So great to see the promise you made.....

I'm gonna follow along to this three sided story for now. (yours-his-the Gods honest truth)

A lot of what you wrote in your first post sounds just like my WW up until now. She sees herself as giving everything for this M and family and RESENTFULLY-WTF Nesre what have you done?
She has valid points and complaints in the M. It is more that they are presented as DJ's and Ao's or drunken nonsense gobblygook when she wants to deal with it.

I know she has serious resentment about the conditions I laid out to even have contact with her period and will distort it any way she can. I am not saying that is what you are doing.

Sounds like this may go on for both of you with a cycle that just keeps going round and round with each of you switching roles.....

Really glad to see you back.

Nesre

Ren - when you get frustrated with W2S, your old behavior was to get self-destructive. When he wasn't meeting your needs you cheated. When he looked at you with hate in his eyes, you started toking again. Then connecting up with men on FB again.

His hatred is about him; his weakness. His lacking.

Your coping strategies is about YOU and ONLY YOU.

That's how this is a fogged out mess. Because you blame him for your self-destructive behaviors.

So - let's say that everything he said about you is an exaggeration, blatant lie or otherwise cruel joke. You know that you are less than you could be and should be.

So let's start on your own side of the street.

Forget about what he's doing to you, how he's looking through you or at you and get down to business of stopping the destructive behaviors, minimizing those behaviors and otherwise excusing yourself and giving even an inch of psychological justification.

Instead, do a 90 in 90; find a Narcotics Anonymous meeting and without fail attend. Find a tough-as-nails sponsor who will nail your ears to the table if you so much as blame your husband for waywardness ever again, and who will help you do your 12 steps, especially steps 4 through 9.

Count on W2S to interfere, enable and otherwise try to trip you up on your way to complete and total personal recovery. Why do I say this? Because he depends on you screwing up so that he doesn't have to look at himself. And frankly, I'd like to see the pressure on him for once.

Once you have worked your program and worked Marriage Builders with no expectations of any return from W2S. That's how you start the clock on earning your way out of the marriage, thru Plan B. But you don't get to start Plan B until you've removed your excuses and blame by being true through and through.

I think the first clue that you're still foggy is your minimizing your pot smoking to just "smoking". Take a look at that first. Minimizing is still minimizing.

Nope, not peeved at all, and thanks for taking the time to point all that out to me. It is why I came back, yanno. I didn't expect everyone to be like "OOOOH, THAT explains it!"

Here is part of the problem though, why are we still talking about the A? This is an absolute NO NO according to Dr. Harley and why I left he boards. He insists in all of his writings that after the initial recovery process, and all the details have been exposed, and JC has been achieved, it is no longer to be discussed. That doesn't mean the pain goes away, but I don't want to stay in this M if all roads lead back to the A. Every bad thing that happens is because of it, every fight brings it up, etc.

Sorry, but you aren't dealing with a fogged-out wayward. We are waaaayyy down the road from that, MF. I'm sorry you are reeling from my post. I figured as much. But, I gotta tell ya, 4 years from the A, 3-1/2 years from D-Day, 2-1/2 years since we came to MB to get help...it's not OK anymore to make this the issue. No wonder he hasn't recovered? You do realize that I spent 2 YEARS before I started smoking again doing everything I could. So to insinuate now that "no wonder he still feels this way" is shocking to ME.

One other thing you mentioned was that I was saying I started smoking again BECAUSE of him not meeting my needs. No, that's not how I meant it - what I meant was, I fell back on old habits after POJA-ing it with him. If he didn't want me to start, why didn't he make that clear then? And, I'm sorry, but saying he/you would be afraid of my reactioin is kind of a cop-out. It is still up to BOTH people to be honest about their feelings at ALL times if POJA is to be successful.

lala,

How many counseling sessions did you schedule with the Harley's?

Would you please list out your list of EPs that you created to protect W2S and your marriage?

What MB books did you read? Which ones did you read more than once?

What questionnaires did you complete?

Did you schedule 15 hours of UA with W2S every week since you agreed to work MB in the beginning?

Agreeing to work the MB program is not the same as taking the lead and actually WORKING it.

WOW KA - now THAT makes sense to me. Totally!!

Thanks so much for this post...

TST - agreed.

Thanks nesre, I know you have dealt with addiction, and I appreciate your advice.

To any who have dealt with addiction I ask this question...doesn't being an addict mean you have to fight the urge to use every day, that you crave it, that you need support to keep from going back? I guess I ask because I don't miss it in the slightest and feel completely stupid for going back. I thanked W2S for standing up to me and insisting I quit for good. I feel a million times better...I guess that's wy I minimize it - because it no longer matters to me. I no longer even entertain the idea of smoking again...that's why I don't think working a program will really make a difference. But I do not doubt that there is much to learn, and I'm sure once I'm there, I'll "get it."

I dunno

The primary reason why I see it as an addiction is that even though you don't experience cravings, look at where you go when you feel abandoned, hated, alone, etc.?

You don't go to the gym, take a class on something to improve your life, get a second job or something else constructive, you fall back to pot.

Remember the rhyme "Nobody likes me, everybody hates me, I'm going to start eating worms."?

THAT'S an addiction. Other people behave abominably and you get self-destructive.

JC has NOT been achieved, Lala...not if you are still triggering W2S and not caring because you continue to do it.

JC has NOT been achieved if you still had the nerve, audacity and disrespect to contact exBFs on FB.

You know this, why are you even attempting to say that JC has been achieved???

IT HASN'T, not even CLOSE.

I will not post again until I can calm down. Your fogginess is appalling and it's getting worse. ARGH.

YES YES YES - THAT'S IT!!! That's exactly what I do. All my life - time after time.