Chris, I don't recall that he posted in this thread, though I'd love to hear his thoughts.

Markos,

You and I know lots of people who do not have a strong, positive identity. Sometimes it is irrational, in that they feel inferior or insecure, when they actually have a lot going for them. Many times, their weak identity and low self-respect is deserved. They know that the best they can hope to do is relatively low on the social and economic scales. If these people do not improve their social worth through education, training, self-discipline and associating with a better class of people, they will remain stuck in a frustrating existence for the rest of their lives.

These people, and their marriages, are characterized by low expectations, dependency, neediness, not knowing what their mate wants from them, not knowing what to do, communicating through manipulation and anger.

You can't help it. You discriminated against thousands of people when you chose your wife. Your main concern should not be judging people you see at work, but judging yourself and evaluating your spouse as you grow and change (or fail to do so). If you and your wife don't agree on the values, goals and plan for your marriage, and your individual identities don't fit that vision and each others' goals and values, how can you work together?

This is a very gray area of MB.

Not that Dr. Harley hasn't explained it well. It just seems to leave itself open to misinterpretation, misapplication and in the worst cases, outright abuse of the concept of POJA.

Perhaps Markos, or Chris, or someone who has direct access to Dr. Harley can try to ask for clarification.

Two independent people meet, fall in love and decide to marry. By its very definition, marriage implies a merger of sorts. So two people become "one".

That doesn't mean two people each become half a person. It means that one plus one is more than just two in this case.

But each person still retains his own brain, his own psychological make-up, his own hopes and dreams that he brought into the marriage, etc.

As SH has said, you are your spouse's environment. He refers to spouses as "teammates". Makes a ton of sense.

But while being a 'together blending of two', there is still the one

plus the one

And each one will have things he/she likes to do, and talents he/she has.

We should never do anything to hurt or harm our spouse.

Clear as a bell

We should reach decisions using the POJA so that neither spouse feels put-upon, used, or that he/she has sacrified.

Also clear as a bell.

Here's where it gets muddy. I stated it upfront on this thread and I *still* am having a hard time understanding it.

At one point does one spouse take responsibility for an issue of his/her own and deal with it, rather than force the other spouse to POJA around it?

Back to the example of the peas. Or the color red. Or a few other examples that have been provided.

And that's where the gray area lies, and where the potential for abuse exists. A crafty person, intent on getting his/her way, could do some harm with this concept.

Or a person could inadvertently step into a land mine and commit a grave misdeed without forethought.

Even I agree, and we are the poster children for the failure of the MB system.

I think the MB system works great. But it has its limits. I think most couples can resolve most issues in a way that works for both of them. However, some issues are not reconcilable. Hopefully, none of these issues are "hills to die on" for either spouse. Gottmann's research supports this. Most marriages contain several irreconcilable differences. The question is whether those issues are "deal breakers".

My wife and I have great difficulty in finding creative solutions. Hence our lack of success in applying the MB system despite the assistance of a coach. But the core of this is that there is no solution to the issue that means the most to me. And I permit my resentment over that irreconcilable difference to color all our other negotiations. We have in the past negotiated win-win solutions to many issues. But despite the amount of forward momentum in other areas, we always run into the brick wall that separates us.

I know ML will argue there must be some way to climb over the wall, or tunnel under it, or go around it, or tear it down brick by brick. And that if we were sufficiently motivated, we would discover the means to get to the other side. I think everyone should approach their marriage as if getting to the other side is possible. And should strive to get to the other side. It has got to be better than staying stuck on this side.


Hey, what are you doing peeking into my marriage?!?! You Peeping Tom!

Retread,

Would you say a lot of your marriage problems arise because your wife does not have a strong, positive identity?

I am reading this thread with great interest because my H and I haven't had the IB portion of our training yet; however, we have had the training on POJA and Guidelines for Successful Negotiations.

With regard to IB - we have no problems with IB; however, we do have problems with POJA... My spouse and I have made great progress with POJAing / Negotiating many things; however, attempts at using POJA on "hot button topics" can still become frustrating for my spouse and he can end up doing DJ and even AO during negotiations. He says that I interrupt him or otherwise behave as if his opinion doesn't matter or at times I behave in a way which conveys that the issue isn't urgent. We discussed a strategy for tackling this issue last night.

For my part of it, I am completely comfortable using POJA & Negotiations on all topics great and / or small. Why am I willing to POJA / Negotiate whatever my H brings to the table for POJA / Negotiations? Because I want a better marriage and I am not trying to stand in my own way - even on a subconscious level. The other part of it is this: I have to believe that if my spouse is bringing something up for POJA / Negotiations, it is because it is important enough to him to do that. I do not assume mal-intent or even entertain the thought. I do not ask myself the "What if he's just trying to control or manipulate me?" question and I do not need to judge his degree of "unreasonableness."

I think that the question When is a request unreasonable? goes to the heart of what seems to be the struggle the folks who take issue with POJA. I think that those thoughts are the results of not being fully in & willing to do the work...It's like you're seeking a reason for things not to work.

When spouse A brings something to spouse B and spouse B is evaluating whether it's "worthy", "reasonable", or an attempt @ manipulation or control - I think that spouse B is merely continuing the same old do-loop.

Is your spouse psycho? (Deliberately trying to address concerns which aren't real for them or anyone else) If you really feel your spouse is psycho - GET THEM TREATED OR GET A DIVORCE.

Care to share a link?

OH,

Yes - It's obvious that the concepts in this program do have the potential for misapplication and even abuse.

So does any "cure" - antibiotics, eyeglasses...Does that mean that we throw those away?

What exactly is the point of stating that obvious fact? Is it a good reason for not being 100% on board with MB?

To answer that, consider this: You have strep throat but the pharmacy will not issue you your antibiotics because of the there's a potential for abuse, right? Nope. The pharmacy types the instructions for the meds, slaps them on the bottle, and hands them to you.

What you do with the meds is on you.

It's the same with MB.

Great thoughts here. This is where the opportunity to inflict more damage either inadvertently or purposely, lies.

First of all, like others have mentioned here, each has to be willing to totally buy into the POJA. That means that both parties are ready for a brainstorm free-for-all and most importantly, to not be disappointed if resolution is not reached that first go-round. Dr. Harley has said (can't find the quote..perhaps others better acquainted with the search engine here can find it), that resolution of the conflict is NOT as important as practicing the concept/consensus building process.

The other part of POJA is part and parcel and that's the negotiation process. Both parties have to feel safe in negotiations. Here's where I fall down. I find myself self-censoring in order to avoid a possible AO or even just an argument. Anticipating this in my mind is a total DJ to my husband and like you said, Chris....I get in my own way. On the other hand, I need to practice emotional honesty (another part of POJA) and *tell* him that I'm not feeling safe enough to share how I'm feeling.

It can get really twisted, really fast. I certainly see why Dr. H advocates practicing on small things first.

Not at all. My wife has a very strong identity. Our 'problems' are mostly that we both got to doing our own things around our identities, my career and her being a SAHM. Our identity growth, our individualism, came into a bit of competition with each other, instead of being molded to support each other. We both decided we wanted to change, and we did, me into more family time and her into working part time when all the children were in school. But we fumbled our way into and through that and parts of your identities are forced to change. I realized that I wanted us to take control of the next phase, as our children left home, and my career changed or I retired. That's when I got to studying and found Dr. Harley, among others.


If you are forced to work around something you can't control, then it is the responsibility of the one who can control it to take control of it. POJA is just to come to recognition of that fact, and try to support each other, and make choices when there are multiple choices on how this one spouse can overcome their personal problem(s).

The pea example sounds to me like a sacrifice, not a POJA. Isn't part of the negotiation figuring out the why of the issue and then addressing it directly? For example, if I told my SO that I didn't want him going out with his friends, I might sound unreasonable. But, if I said that my problem with it is that I don't want him drunk driving or coming home drunk and cranky or spending too much money, we could then find a solution that would address those concerns and still allow him to spend time with his friends which could make us both happy.

Also, related to the pea example, I would say there are many issues that, if they bug your spouse enough, you should give them up. Are peas really worth arguing over? Aren't there other vegetables you can both enjoy? My point is, if it is unimportant to you, give it up rather than fighting over it for the purpose of control. If it is important, keep negotiating until you figure it out.

I am still new and learning here, but I would also suspect that POJAing everything would get exhausting and eventually you would start to have some general rules about things and know what does and doesn't need to be POJAed. I also think that once the spouse who at first felt like they had no control in the relationship sees that his/her feelings are considered, he/she would ease up a bit on the requests.

I think it would only be in rare cases (drug use, mental health issues) that the POJA would become a problem. But, like I said, I am still learning and could be totally wrong.

If you think in terms of POJA, and, "How will what I am thinking of doing affect my marriage?", you will not have to POJA everything with your spouse. You will come to the right answer in your head for all the small stuff, and you won't do the wrong thing.

I think you hit a nail on the head, nomander. The issue you pointed out about not going out w/ his friends. Your *real* issue is the drunk driving or safety, or money, or maybe all three. It's NOT about you controlling his friends.

But if you didn't open yourself up and reveal that true, core issue, it could seem like an attempt at control.

So one key might be, to borrow a phrase from LA "to check our intent".

The other example, the peas. It's fictional, but perhaps the underlying issue there is the spouse's real fear that something awful will happen to her husband if he eats peas...even out of the house. Will he choke? Have an allergic reaction? Maybe it's based on something frightening that happened earlier in life. Once again, the key here would be to figure out the real issue, and open oneself up and share it.

Then it would look more like: "I'm so afraid that you will get into an accident; will you promise to call me if you drink more than X?" or "I'm so stressed out about money; can we agree that you won't spend more than $X?"

Put that way, it seems a lot less controlling doesn't it? And the "drinking more/spending more than X" is what can be POJA'd.

I guess this is where I am stumped. Isn't that subjective? Who is to say, other than George himself, if the resentment is short lived and that is goes away when something mutally enjoyable takes place?

I tried to come up with a very similar scenario this weekend, to invite over the friend's family. H would get to see the friend he likes, I would not be as upset that it is just the two of them IBing, and I could enjoy the company of the friend's wife. But my H REALLY just wanted to see his friend, without the family in tow, regardless. I know this resentment carries over, because he will continue to try and make arrangements to see his friend without the wife and kids in tow. Even though we can all get together, he is still resenting that he cannot do it alone. BTDT in this situation for years now.

Gdar, what is the real issue w/ his friend. Is it that you feel the friend is NOT a friend of your marriage? Can you share that with him? Can you POJA that neither of you will pursue friendships with people NOT friends of the marriage?

Put in that context, it's no longer about the friend.

Well, having his friend's W come over is not the only potential solution. Why doesn't he want the W and family to come, too? Does it give him less time from the friend? If so, maybe you could invite just the wife over or you suggest that you and the wife hang out outside with the kids or go to the park. Or, maybe you invite a different friend over or the friend come early and his family joins him in a few hours. There are a million possible solutions and one is bound to work for both of you.

So you find ways to work around it, maybe you plan to go out without the kids and spend the evening somewhere where you can chat with the wife and he can chat with his friend for a while but you can come together afterwards?

Yes, safety is one of the areas for improvement in our Negotiation process.

As I shared before, now that we've essentially mastered the small things, we're on to the hot button items.

For my part of it, I need to ensure a safe for my H to feel safe by not exhibiting any behaviors which he perceives as discounting his opinion. That's part of my Strategy to replace DJ with Thoughtful Requests. The plan is supposed to be complete by August 14th. My H is ensuring a safe environment for me by maintaining a positive attitude, being cognizent of his body language & tone, and carefully considering my thoughts. His plan is supposed to be completed by August 12th.

One of the things that is beginning to change POJA with my husband is the fact that I am "Acting As If..."

Here's what I mean:

H and I have been around the block a few times with certain arguments. It's easy to have a disagreement and immediately fall into all the feelings that I had at the END of the LAST conversation about it... defeated, blue, unloved, etc.

What I'm trying to do now (and it's not JUST re: POJA stuff, but all stuff--though it seems particularly helpful during POJA), is to ACT AS IF I believe my H wants to be happy, and wants to work this out with me in a way we can both feel good about.

When I do that, when I tell myself that he wants me to be happy, and that this is a blip, and we can get through it and be happier together than before we talked, I feel my whole spirit lighting up.

The other day, we were entering into the spiral about something. I was defeated, thinking he was upset with me AGAIN, and he was actually upset.

So I took a few deep breaths and started reminding myself of his love for me. In a minute, I was able to smile at him with genuine happiness--and I have to say, the man does love me... because when he saw my smile, it just melted away his negative feelings. I watched his whole demeanor change.

In a few minutes, we were giggling, and being affectionate and back on a happy road, with the issue (at least temporarily) resolved.

If you have been unsuccessful with POJA for a long time (telly weakly raises her hand for the on-and off success she's known), having the right attitude is both the hardest thing to have, and the most important.