True Telly.

My H identified that he often began with a negative attitude on certain topics.

From a low starting point, it's easy to get lower.

This is where the rubber meets the road. Hopefully, H decides that he should drop people who are not friends of the marriage, that F is not a friend of the marriage, and H stops spending time with F. That resolves the conflict.

If not, W is supposed to use Radical Honesty to express (i) that she thinks F is not a friend of the marriage, (ii) that H seeing F is IB which reduces her love bank toward H, (iii) that she respectfully requests that H stop spending time with F.

Again, hopefully, H realizes that his relationship with W is more important than his relationship with F, and dumps F. Took longer. Probably built up some resentment within W. But dumping F is also a bigger deal than if H did so quickly so we can be back to Intimacy.

But in some cases H never proves unwilling to drop F. He feels controlled. He doesn't agree that F is an enemy of the marriage. And he resents W for continuing to complain. No matter how respectfully W expresses her views, H comes to view her statements as either DJs or AOs and he is not amenable to listening to them.

At this point, we have to hope that H seeing F is not W's "hill to die on". Not the best result. H seeing F still triggers withdrawals from W's love bank. But hopefully his balance in her bank is high enough to withstand the withdrawals. That is what Gottmann's work shows. Couples can survive these issues and remain in intimacy so long as the withdrawals from unresolved issues aren't "too high".

If the unresolved issue involves sex or money, much less likely that the couple can remain in Intimacy without resolving their differences in a win-win manner.

I urge all couples to relentlessly brainstorm to find solutions to issues that initially appear irreconcilable. Especially if they involve some EN that is high on one or the other spouse's list. But even the Harley's admit that not every couple can reach POJA on every issue. To some extent you have to hope you were wise enough to marry someone where the irreconcilable differences are not core issues.

For some people, hearing "everything can be POJA'd" is inspiring. For others, it makes them feel like failures and de-motivates them from continuing to try. I think we should stress the inspiring side of the message. But I think we need to be open to the reality that no one should feel broken because they can't reach a POJA on something.

Hold,

you have really good insights.

I hope your situation turns around too.

As Retread said recently, my marriage will improve when I am prepared to become a better person regardless of the impact on Mrs. Hold or our relationship. While I am content to be less than my best, we will not be able to make progress. Hopefully, I will choose to improve myself soon.

This friend of his is NOT a friend of our M, no. Yes, I have shared with him for 6 years how I feel about it. He says I am trying to make him choose between his friend and I. No, we cannot POJA because my H will not give up this friend, no matter what and he has told me as much. He won't GET new friends, unfortunately. I would love to come up with some couples, but he only likes to stick to his select few.

That's unfortunate Gdar.

What's next for you?

We have 4 kids, they have 1. His wife is nice, and I have taken her to do a couple of things, but we do not really click one-on-one. I do not enjoy her company THAT much, but I do prefer her to be here when her H is, because he is just a gruff, off-putting unfriendly person. He wants my H all to himself. One of those "I am the man. we have to do man things - women tend to the kids and keep em out of the way" types. He prefers to see my H with NO distractions. If we all get together, they (H and friend) both feel that they still need that one and one time and arrange it at a later date. Then I see him twice as much as I already cannot stand. LOL

I do not feel I should have to take the kids and run off with the wife so the boys can get together. They cannot even see each other without staying the night. These people only live 45 minutes away from us, but it has been used as an excuse to have overnights because they act like it is some freaking road trip and are too tired/drunk to drive home. Huge sore spot for us, huge.

How is this even a choice?! You're his wife.


I don't understand this.


What if you were to say:

What do ou think would happen then?

Not a clue. They are going camping together next week, as soon as school is out. He was just here overnight Saturday night. Then he will be back for our annual 4th of July party (but I will NOT have room for him, as we have friends coming from out of state that will be staying here), so I bet he will bring his run down camper and park it in front of our house and crash in it. Makes me shudder just thinking of seeing him that much between now and then. Once a year would work for me. LOL

We had that discussion when I had just given birth to child #4 and his friend had been over THREE weekends in a ROW. He said he would "obviously choose me, but would never forgive you EVER for putting me in that position".

Jesus...you need to get rid of this friend or manage his behavior.

How does your H even view him as a real friend your H when he knows that his behavior causes strife between his *alleged friend (your H) and his wife (you!)

*

Brainstorming:

Can you get assertive? Talk with him directly when he does things you don't like. For example.... pre-emp the camper issue. Tell him IN FRONT OF your H:


If he argues, tell him you don't want it in front of the house. If he continues, tell him
If he doesn't comply, let him know it will be towed and then follow through.

That will just make me a giant, raging [censored] in my H's eyes. According to Bill & Joyce (in regards to his loser friend), I am supposed to make home a place my H wants to be. I need to take this summer and really drive it home how awesome of a wife I am and make sure I be a rockstar (thinking then H will "need" loser friend less). This is will do the opposite.

I did write loser friend a letter once, and it pissed my H off for about a minute, but he understood why I did it and took full responsibility for enabling his friends to use our house as a party pad. My H was in the middle of his EA when I was about to have the baby, and I caught it right after he was born. During this time, for 6 solid weeks following the birth of our son (and 2 weeks prior), my H was a drunk, thoughtless, party animal. We had a house full of people every weekend for SIX WEEKS when I had just had a baby. He was running away, escaping the reality of our life. After that last weekend, I had HAD it and since my H was not caring how it was making me feel, I wrote a letter to two of his friends that had been passing out in my house on the weekends (with my 4 kids in it) and told them that they were no longer welcome to come to my house overnight ever again.

That lasted about 4 months.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2371194&page=28

this is about the start of where I explain it in more detail on my thread.

Oh, and the other day my H told me (in reference to loser friend) again that I DO like his friend and that I just ACT like this to be controlling (cannot recall EXACT words, but he attempts to say it "jokingly" with a smile on his face). He is always telling me something along those lines.

Gdar...

One thing...

You want to have friends of your marriage...so you also want to be a friend of the marriage.

Like this guy and his wife. You may not like her a lot...or him at all...you want to be a friend of their marriage. And yes, invite her and their kid when this male friend of your H's comes over. You don't control the outcome...you're totally in control of your goal, your intent.

You know there is no real choice between this friend and you...you are married. You are his real wife. Treat yourself and your marriage with respect of knowing that...even when resentment, entitlement and lack of respect is driving your H's perception.

Doing so is a real act of love...staying clear on reality...where you stand is where you choose to stand and how...and you're here, standing for your marriage. A reminder. You already know this...

LA

Gdar,

Point 1: I don't see how Dr H & his wife (Bll & Joyce - yes?) told you anything about this situation. You said you're using a non-MB Marriage counselor.

Being a stellar wife does not = being a doormat.

Point 2: Your H knows your displeasure with this and likely views you as a raging [censored] anyway.

You may want to consider whether you are dealing with this in an ineffective way which keps things exactly as they are while building up lots of resentment between you and your H.

Chris, she posted on SAA...she called into the MB radio show about this.

Gdar, I agree with what LA says, but I also think you might need to draw a boundary.

Now I am horrible at boundaries but I can tell you that every time I have drawn my line in the sand, I have actually managed to engineer an improvement in my marriage/situation. I certainly don't want to live the rest of my marriage drawing lines in the sand, hence more work is to be done...but for now...when I get to the point where you are now, where massive withdrawals are coming out of my $LB? I draw my line.

POJA works when you're both on board and especially when you're both feeling positively towards one another (like Telly said above, if you have the belief that your partner holds your happiness at equal importance with their own).

Gdar I think you're possibly right that you need to draw him in, create those feelings of closeness before you can convince him to get on board with the whole program. Its not a POJA failure though, because he's not understanding the concept.

Thx for the clarity


Which was what exactly? I read it twice & can't for the life of me figure out what the main point was.



eureka!

This is out of control...


Bingo!

I'm out of control???

LOL Yes, I know that, but how do you know that?

No - not you...her sitch!


LMAO