What is her explanation for crying? How does she explain this?

YEG, when folks say "no relationship talk" that DOES NOT MEAN you dont' ask questions about the affair and tell her how devastated you are. It does not mean you don't DEMAND that she end all contact with the OM.

Frankly, I don't really know what it means when someone says "no relationship talk" so perhaps someone could explain it to me..

I didnt ask. I didnt want to get in a relationship conversation.

Thats the only thing she said.

YEG, it is ok to ask and discuss this with her. I don't understand the "no relationship talk" advice but you do need to be talking to her as much as possible about the situation.

I have taken issue with this before. It is commonly stated that being in Plan A means "no relationship talk". However, this is not something I understand Dr Harley to have said. In fact, he says this about Plan A:

Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.

In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward resolving the issue of thoughtlessness.

A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof.

In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan.

What Are Plan A and Plan B?

To negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover....

the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness...once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged...

In the negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed...the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended...

a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair...

None of these things is possible if there is "no affair talk". Dr Harley makes it clear that Plan A is a time for negotiation, and I cannot see how negotiation can be possible if there is "no affair talk". I have never seen Dr Harley use the phrase "no affair talk", or anything similar.

So if that is the what, how do you do that? What kind of things would you say? I am in a similar position to Yeg, ww recommitted to om after exposure three weeks ago. Still very angry and no agreement to NC.

Meme,

Have you read Dr H's question and answer columns? He lays out a number of scenarios for dealing with WHs and (separately) for dealing with WWs.

He does not give you precise lines to speak, but he gives a general picture of what should be done in Plan A, which is to be thoughtful and considerate, but to let the WW know that you want the affair to end (with complete NC, and a job change or house move if necessary), and that you will not put up with the situation for long.

You can "negotiate" her ending the affair. The only thing Dr H says you must not do is commit the LBs of disrepectful judgements, angry outburst etc. And whilst selfish demands are another kind of LB, Dr Harley says that demanding an end to infidelity is not a LB. It is the only way for the marriage to survive.

My understanding is it means you get answers to your questions early on and then stay away from it because dwelling on mistakes of the past or present is an enemy of good conversation.

It sure doesn't mean you tolerate the affair.

markos, how does that fit with Dr Harley's words about "negotiating" the end of the affair?

Dr H does say somewhere that once the affair details are out, the affair should not be brought up again, but my understanding is that he is talking about RECOVERY. (I am at work now and cannot look up the details.) About Plan A, he clearly talks about "negotiation".

I don't think that successful negotiation will take place if the BS brings up the ongoing affair every day. However, I think that a spouse could bring up the need to change jobs or whatever at the beginning, and then raise it again after a week. Dr Harley says in one of his Q&As that the BS should let the WS know "from time to time" that the couple needs to move away, and they would like that to happen so that the couple can recover. If the WS stalls this beyond a reasonable length of time for Plan A, then plan B is in order.

The alternative would be for the BS to ask for a move or job change early on, and then never mention the affair again and suddenly move out. Dr Harley does not recommend this; he says to "negotiate" NC for a fixed time.

This is where Dr H suggests occasional mentions of moving away. In this case, the BW believes that the affair is over, but Dr Harley warns her that her H and OW are still seeing each other, and that recovery is impossible while they still work together:

The first step is to be the very best wife you can possibly be. Do everything you can to meet his needs, and don't do anything to upset him. Set a period of time that you think you can do this without getting too upset, say, six months. Once in a while, tell him that you think both of you need a fresh start somewhere else.

If he does not respond to your kindness and respectful suggestions within that period of time you're ready for the second step: pack up yourself and your children and move near your family and friends for their support. It should be far away from his lover -- another city or even another state. Have absolutely nothing to do with him. Don't talk to him, don't see him.

What To Do With an Unfaithful Husband: Letter no.3

Dr H has amended his advice for 6 months to only 3-4 weeks for a wife. MelodyLane has the email advice he gave on the private weekend forum.

Is that 3-4 weeks for a WW or for the BW to wait?
What about husbands?

3-4 weeks for a BW to be in Plan A.

As far as I know, he has not changed his advice for men in Plan A.

Meme, have you read the Q&As?

Yes, I have read the Q&As but not the ones about WH.

Update from last night

Ended up taking a half day of work off. I brought lunch home and she was very thankful. She was still off emotionally yesterday. I took DD4 for my M house and spent the afternoon alone with the WW. Pretty non eventful she did give me a hug at one point though. We watched a movie and then I went running.

WW fixed a very nice dinner and I thanked her emphatically. I put DD4 to bed and we watched a show or so and then we watched an old black and white movie. I was doing household chores at the same time.

During the movie she stopped and asked me, "Why are you doing this?" I asked her what she meant and she said, "After what I said the other night (She was seriously considering leaving) why are you doing this?"

I told her, "Because I love you and I want to be a better person." She told me she knew how much I loved her and we shared a little hug.

She also let a couple things slip about the breakdown the night before. She said, "I havent dealt with losing my job, I really havent dealt with this (meaning the M on the rocks)" I just told her I was here for her if she wanted to talk.

She also told me she really appreciated me just holding her the night before. She said it was really nice.

She almost broke down again during dinner but was able to keep her composure.

Rest of movie watching was uneventful. Though she did let me curl up behind her while we watched the movie a bit. When the movie was over she retired to her private quarters and I went to bed for the night. I had placed a rose on her pillow from the garden (I grow about 200 different rose types). So she found that after I had gone. Hopefully she just didnt flop into bed on it.

Think she has pretty much maxed out her cards now. I think her one account is empty and she is down her last bank account. She has like 1300 dollars in it but still has to pay bills. So that will be gone in about a month im thinking. Then she will be flat broke and totally dependent on me for cash. That should end the "moving out" talk.

Pretty sure she is going out tonight with friends. Im going to do alot more due diligence checking up than I did before. Should be able to figure out with who.

No relationship talk really. Didnt get into her problems. I was just a ear if she wanted it. Im also keeping my expectations close to nil. It hurts seeing her close the door every night but there is nothing I can do about that. She has the fence post firmly planted up her A55 at the moment.

As always any interpretation on her thoughts last night is welcome.

Not much to update tonight.

She wanted alone time so I left her at the house (Monitoring is in effect) and took DD4 to eat with my grandmother. Though she needs this alone time to work on her problems all i can see her doing is watching movies and lifetime shows. Same old same old.

One of the local resteraunts is having a benifit for the oil spill cleanup. I invited her to it but she declined. Also reminded her out anniversary is next week. Im trying to find some black tie charity event so we can do some dinner and dancing. She LOVES getting all dresed up and playing the role of a socialite. Other options are trying to find a show or really nice resteraunt to go to.

I went in today and checked the side of her face for scratches. She asked me why. I said I was wondering if the rose I set on her pillow last night got her. She apparently really liked it because she started smiling and blushing.

She is starting to push back a little on the domestic support im providing. She is starting to feel bad because im doing all the dishes and laundry and vaccuming. So she wont let me take her plate into the kitchen. No big deal. Im still offering.

Th BIG news is I have my second apointment with Steve on Friday. The WW said she is considering talking to him. Thats better than the "absolutely not" that i was getting before. It will depend how she is feeling that day. If she talks to him it will be out of guilt but thats fine. She knows how much I want the M to work and how hard im trying. She thought id just quit after she told me she was seriously considering moving out the other day. When i didnt it threw her off. If she doesnt want to talk with him yet ill just use the appointment to talk about plan A stuff. Get some more tips on what I can do just at home.

Except asking her to talk to Steve no relationship talk. Its pointless anyways. I would rather not know anything than here the "I might move out" junk.

Wife hasnt left the house in 2 days. She is just sitting around. Im trying to get her out but she doesnt wanna go. So I spend time with her as best I can

Noon update

WW is very depressed today. Called her on the phone and she was just down in the dumps. She didnt seem upset with me just sad.

I brought up our anniversary. I had been brainstorming on it all morning. I came up with a great plan. I was going to fly her up to atlantic city for a meatloaf concert and spend all weekend with her on the boardwalk. She said, "Thank you for the offer but no thanks."

I think the cash crunch may be biting her. She has a bit of money left but she is running out fast. Thats seriously cramping her style. I think the impact of losing her job and ruining her M is finally biting her. Not enough to give it another try but enough to make her sad. Definatly not enough to knock her off the fence.

I called her dad. I left him a message that she was really down in the dumps. Maybe he can do something for her. Gonna call her best friend as well. Maybe she can take her out.

Not sure how this impacts the M. I think she is just upset at herself in general and she has no idea how to get out.

My plan is to continue PA. She isnt going anywhere. I gotta trust that time will allow my love for her to pull her out. Really hope steve has some good advice on friday. I need some hope from somewhere. I really hope she will talk to him too. Even if its just to get him off my back the chatting to steve may help her.

Lawyer just called. She is making sure that I wanted to postpone the temp hearing still. She is concerned about me losing my bar to alimony.

Asked me what the status of reconciliation was. Stuff like that.

One thing the WW has never done is tell me she wanted a divorce. I dont wanna make it easier for her. She should be tortured with my company much the same way yall are tortured with my blogish updates.

Hee Hee

Pathetic outing last night

Once again my emotions got the better of me. Go ahead and post it. I know im supposed to be strong. That needy is weak. That crying is pathetic and it just pushes her away. I got it.

In the end im a person though. Just because Im a guy it doesnt mean I dont have feelings. I have needs. Just like she wants someone to hold her when she needs it so do I. Im a good guy and I didnt ask for any of this. I didnt invite this evil into my M. Im just the guy thats fighting for my wife and trying to save his family.

Bleh. So I go running and stuff yesterday afternoon. When im done I head home. DD5 (happy birthday) is at my parents house so its just me and her. She is still in her funk. One of her favorite uncles died the other day. That plus the pressure of her failing M and losing her job is getting to her I think. She is back tot he one word answers to everything. Im fine. The day was good. Drivel like that.

I go to load up the dishwasher and she stops me. No big deal. I start clothes in the washer. Nope cant do that either. She is basically just pushing back on all the things im doing to just be kind to her. We start talking about DD5 party today. She still is avoiding my family. She wants hers to come over though. This is really annoying me.

So all this stuff just starts adding up.Im getting more and more upset. I feel myself breaking down so I go to the stairs and take a break. I try to walk it off. Im trying to avoid the breakdown. She comes back in the room and starts the show. She isnt being mad at me or mean to me. Just distant.

In retrospect I cant even remember what triggered be but I started crying. I immediatly went upstairs to the bedroom and started sobbing my brains out. I was praying for help and strength and just pathetic. She slipped in and I didnt even notice till she said she couldnt tell if I was talking to her or not.

At this point I got up and just sat with her. We talked a bit on the floor. I basically just said how hurtful this was and how hellish being apart from her was. Im trying to win her back and help her find happiness again. Yet Im getting hobbled at every turn. She wont allow me to schedule dates with her anymore. She always has other plans. She wont go on trips with me. Thats her favorite thing to do and I cant meet that need. She thinks Im trying to buy her back. So not what im doing.

She gets frustrated and walks out. What kills me is that all I want is the same comforting she does. She gets upset and starts F*&&ing another man when I dont do it. Here I am emotionally devastated because of her selfish actions and she just looks at me and says she hates this hell we are living in that SHE created and she doesnt know if we can make it.

I just want to scream.

DD5 gets back home and we run to the store. We come back and she watches a movie. WW and me finish our show. Knowing that im in a very needy mood I tell her im going to leave for a bit. She tells me if thas what I want go ahead. SHe looks so hurt though. So I stay because I really just want to be with her. She allows me to lay besides her on the couch. It makes me a feel a bit better. She even put her hand on me for a moment. When she did I looked back and just said thank you.

After the show was over she announces that she is going on the treadmill. I ask her if I can stay with her. I just want to sleep in the same bed as my wife. She says she would prefer me not to. I knew it wasn't going to happen but I was already pathetic so who cares.

She heads upstairs and I start balling again downstairs. Just laying on the floor being pathetic and tearing all over the place.

I head upstairs to say goodnight to DD5. I tell WW by. She is running on the treadmill. I tell her good night and she calls me back several times. She tells me she is sorry for tonight. Not sure what she means. I apologized for my behavior as well. DD5 can tell im upset and gives me a big hug. She doesnt want me to leave. I tell her I have to and I leave crying.

That concludes my patheticness for the night. I get in a fight with my mother about DD5s birthday. Weee everyone is pissed at me. FML.

I just go to bed and text the WW nite. She actually texts me back. "gnite BS. I am sorry"

I respond "I just love you so much. I feel like part of me is gone"

Her reply "I know"

At this point sleep finally takes me and mercifully puts me out of my misery.

What did I learn? Nothing. I learned I cant contain my emotions. I am a pathetic human being. I learned that im despicable and unlovable. Ive been a doormat all my life and every girlfriend I ever had ended up cheating on me and leaving. Why should my WW be any different.

At least I didnt get angry and love bust. Yea! <Fist Pump>

Im tired. I get up for work every day at 530 am. I work till 530PM and do the 40 min drive home. Its 630 before I get home from running. I end up staying up late till 10 or 11 every night. Im mentally, physically and emotionally exhausted. I still love my WW very much but its so hard doing this. I do believe im getting returns out of my PA. I also want to keep in PA till the OM leaves the country. I feel I have a decent chance if I go to PB and he isnt around.

My eyes feel like they are going to just fall out. I cant study for crap. Only reason I am still passing tests is because I worked hard preparing for this class.

I know why im doing this. I know who im doing it for. I love my WW despite how much she hurts me. Im just tired. I just need some sort of break.

Maybe Ill borrow the cabin keys from my FIL and just do a prayer retreat to the Mountains. Maybe Ill just drive somewhere and sleep in a hotel for a couple of days. Just check out of my life for a weekend.

This is the hardest thing Ive ever done. Its even worse because all this could be for nothing.

Sorry for being a whiney B*)$# today. I just feel horrible. I want to throw myself in front of a tour bus.

Feel free to dogpile me for the 180 breaking down. I deserve it. I tried to do the right thing but failed like everything else in my crap life.

Sometimes I really hate my WW.

She is mad because I had the gall to invite my family to my daughters birthday party. She doesnt care about anything Im doing for her. She is just a cold woman.

I sometimes wonder why I even bother trying.

Im not giving up just she could have an ounce of gratitude about some of the stuff I do for her. Im the only income this family has. Im paying for her car, her car insurance, electricity, 2 mortgages, water, sewer, trash and most of the meals.

She is still paying for the cell phones, cable and internet. Thats until the savings runs out. Then ill be paying that too. along with her credit card debt (about 11,000 bucks worth). Thats more than I have after spending 8000 on a lawyer and PI.

She cant even be nice to me on the phone. She is just such a greedy person. She always said its all about her. I guess I should have listened harder.

I need to get away from this nightmare.

Somebody just say something.

Im not quitting. Im not going pb. Im just going out of my mind.