And she continues this morning. Her feelings are REAL to her. I can see this. However, it is all babble.

How I am keeping her from being happy.

How she could not eat breakfast with me because ONE time I told her that ramen noodles were not a nutritious breakfast...she disagreed....I pushed my point and that was an argument. Thousands of breakfasts together..she remembers ONE. I told her 'one time right, I remember' and she said yes, one time but it was bad. Wow.

How if we were not living together, I could not control her. I asked her what I was controlling, she said talking or seeing him.

How all I do now makes her cringe because all she remembers are the bad things.

Seems to me, the nicer I am to her, for us, etc...the more 'guilt' she feels and she is pushing me as much as she can. She apologized twice this morning...that she was just 'having a day' but as soon as she did, she continued on her rant.

How she feels mad that I am still in the house, because it is what "I" wanted all along, not to lose my time with our daughter.

I was very calm. Told her I cared for her and her feelings immensely, with or without me. How I thought that if this was the last summer as an intact family, how I was going to make the best memories possible and enjoy every day. How I was not stopping her, but while we were married, did not feel the disrespect of another man was appropriate for our family. In anyones mind.

She thought counseling would help nothing as they would just side with one of us (therefore, she does not want to hear any opinion that differs from hers). How what I was doing didn't do anything because she is still alone (without him). Wow, she is enamored by the thought of him. Him, that in her mind, is the escape from her current unhappiness. We ALL know different. EVERYONE does. Just no one is telling her, and her only friend that she talks to, obviously just listens. There is NO way this makes sense to anyone is there?

I am listening and standing strong...but wow, is this hard. All normal right? May blow over? May not of course, but tell me more...I love hearing from these forums. Keeps me sane.

grip- Sounds to me like you had a great weekend. What i read is that your WW sees the changes you are making. She just doesn't trust that they are real yet. The longer you go the more confused she will get. The good sign is that she is willing to talk to you about her feelings. It seems to me that she is starting to trust you with her feelings. I actually had a similar conversation with my WW this weekend about control. She wants you to give up and be happy for her. That way she can run off with OM without any guilt. You know you can't control whether she leaves or not. You can only control you. Fighting for your marriage is not control, but she won't realize that while she is foggy. I know it seems bad right now, but its all a matter of persective. I would change situations with you in a second. Keep it up, it seems to me like you are making progress.

igrip

I think things are going well. I have been posting to you because I see a lot of things in your story similar to mine. I am not going to tell you that this is a slam dunk, I also don't want to discourage you. This is my perspective based on being on the inside once and now looking back with hindsight.

Keep dragging things out, fight to stay in your house. I never got to the point of what I am going to tell you because I had to leave my house and the opportunity to influence my wife was lost.

A couple of men who I respect on here told me similar things. In a nutshell, you still have a lot of things stacked against you. I am referring to you wife's feelings. To recommit to your marriage, she will be faced with these things. She will avoid admitting these as long as she can, because it will mean she was wrong and did things that were wrong, so she won't give up easily.

1) She will have to admit that you are not an uncaring oaf, but truly love her and your family, that you can "change" by improving areas that are weak.

2) She will have to admit that the feelings she had for OM have faded, that they are not one in the universe soulmates.

3) She will have to admit that she is happy with you.

4) She may have to eat a little crow with friends that she has painted a picture of you being a [censored] that she doesn't love.

You get the picture.

From the good advice I got on here, I believe that this won't happen gradually, at least to your eyes. You may get a glimpse every so often, and that is the hard part, because your heart will soar and race ahead much too far. Then the glimpse will go away and you heart will crash. But the progress could be going on, depending on how stubborn your wife is. Mine dug her heels in. But if you can outlast her, stay around and be the good husband you want to be, then suddenly things might happen, and it will be so quick you can't believe it. It will be more like a sudden crash than a gradual fall. Then you will be there to build again.

All this hinges on no contact and proximity between you. Contact will basically set the clock back to the beginning.
Check out this website

Harley article

It is a website that gives resources to overcome infidelity. The page above uses Dr. Harley's Surviving An Affair.This was actually where I found out about MB. Don't worry about the article, it is exactly what is on MB. But read the comments, a big majority are from women involved in affairs that don't want to let go, talking about how seeing OM across the street hurts them, other sickening bull like that. It is pathetic, they are still trying to justify staying in contact in the comments of an article entitled "Total Separation: The Right Way to End an Affair." But it gives you an insight into the mindset and what you are up against.

I think your wife is trying to convince herself that you are just an act.

Make sure you are not.
Pray for enough time that she sees this.
Shorten that time as much as you can by ensuring NC.
Lengthen that time as much as you can by staying.

Thank you mmmherb...that was a great post and exactly what I needed today. I appreciate it.

Today, more signs of wayward talk at its best..anyone want to laugh? It is like I am dealing with a teenager.

*I have the rest of my life already planned out.
*I know what true happiness is. When asked what it was, she said I would not want to hear it.
*I do not want to move to Colorado (when all along, that is where her sister lives and that is where she wanted to be always)
*That the divorce would be final 60 days AFTER she served me - papers signed and all.
*That I would not mind if she and our daughter moved away. HA - I told her same county for the next 16 years. Period. I am not leaving my daughter's side ever. I was firm. Surprise? She was...she thought all that would be easy.
*That I wanted to keep the house - surprise again. Nope, I don't want to leave..this is my dream home as well. We picked it together.
*How she would want a new mommy-mobile. I said, sure, together, I'll buy you whatever you want. Apart though, nope. Surprise again...she thought I would. Together, we are a strong united team I told her that could do anything.

Basically, as Sapphirereturns so eloquently put it on one of her posts:

You guys don't know this, (maybe you do) but you actually have the upper hand, you have plans, your focused, your determined. You have it all! And guess what we have? NOTHING, none of those things do we have, we are not focused we want the easy way out. We do not have a plan, we THINK we have a plan, but in reality we don't! We are not determine, we are a MESS! WS are in a BIG GIGANTIC maze trying to find the way out, but we don't realize is that the maze move every 5 min, and we are literally LOST!

I just want to keep you focused on one thing.

Your biggest asset is time, don't do anything rash, like move out.

MB gives hope, for good reason. There are many success stories. Most of the time, when someone like me shows up, we have been so beaten down and felt no hope for a long time, and MB breathes some life into us. There is a light out there. But it is easy to think at first that the light is closer than it is. That makes the waiting and setbacks very disheartening. But, they are part of the process. Especially the waiting.

It doesn't take long to minimize the effect of the setbacks. It is easy to level off, because soon it is evident if something happens that you perceive as good, it won't be long before a pullback occurs. You can prepare for that. But you can't make the calendar turn faster.

There is a good reason for her to stay around. I think you said she is about 2 years old. You job is to also be there, then one day she may wake up and realize that the idea of you all being a family is a good one, and she will be happy about it. In fact, if you can make it that long, I'd almost guarantee it.

The secret is time, Plan A, and being the husband that I know you want to be.

Thank you mmmherb again..just thinking of my daughter there in your post made me tear up. That is what makes me tear these days..her.

Tell me, how do I 'ensure' that I stay home as long as I can?

When she finds out from her lawyer that 60 days is not the real number here, she is going to be furious that 'her plan' is not working. Scared of that part...I know her family does not want me out. I believe the answer is the 'heavy lifting bulldog' attorney and the money that it will take after that to get this divorce...from Mr.Wondering's advice. True? That 'threat' or 'fact' is what is going to keep her from making that move?

Without knowing the law, I can't really answer you. But I suspect that her "plan" was that you would have to leave just because she filed, is the mother, or something like that.

My state is a no fault state. My wife asked the judge to move me out. I ended up leaving just before the hearing because my lawyer told me that it was inevitable that the judge would rule in her favor. He may have been right, but that is the one thing I would do over.

All I know is what I have read in your thread, and I haven't refreshed my memory lately, but I seem to remember that you have some legal leverage in your state because of the adultery. You really need to discuss this with your lawyer, but do everything in your legal power to stay home and to keep you wife from taking your daughter if she leaves.

Like I said, the possibility of her leaving probably never really crossed her mind.

I would let her make any legal moves first then let your lawyer aggressively counter.

Time. If enough goes by (and, this cannot be emphasized enough, NC stays in place), then some of the things may never take place. The secret is time.

I truly believe that the reason she stays is irrelevant, as long as she stays. Proximity, LB deposits, no withdrawals, etc, do the things they do, even if she doesn't consciously realize or acknowledge them.

Hi igrip,

Am still following your updates with lots of hope for you two.

Just a few suggestions. When you talked about going to the museum the other day and she joined you and your daughter that was impressive. Why not plan more things like that with her. It sounds to me that RC is one of the EN's that you can meet now. It also sounds to me that the two of you spend alot of time at home (I could be very wrong) and that gets you into her baiting you into relationship talk.

How about emphasizing the RC time by suprising her with outings. E.g.:

1) finding a new nice restaurant with a menu she would like and taking her there w/o telling her the destination
2) getting your camera out and asking her to go along with you to take some really scenic pictures
3) an amusement park that Both of you enjoy (has she been on a rhrill ride or rollercoaster recently?)
4) bring home a couple of bags of fresh grocerie and w/o saying a word to her prepare a favorite dinner for you two
5) leave a gift bag outside her door for her to discover in the morning w/o again saying a word - it contains bath oil, candles, perfume that you picked out, a vase of flowers that you picked out, and a simple note something like "just to brighten your day ( I realise this is more affection)

I realize that some of these things would take money for a baby sitter, but I feel that would be an important investment.

Women love at least some mystery. I don't think you are being as mysterious as you can be, of course w/o committing an LB, but I don't think any of these would be. So also, become a little bit more mysterious yourself. Just a little:

1) if you wear your shirt buttoned up, wear it partly unbuttoned to show your new gold chain ocasionally
2) bring some plants home one evening and then get up at 6 am and get busy planting them (including outdoor flowers that she would like)
3) do some research on your computer that you would like to do (i.e., sports, history, gardening) and when she approaches you be mentally distracted - not distant but distracted and into it
4) If you really feel you could afford it or that you know both of you would like it, get a brochure on a trip..i.e, a train trip lets say to somehwere you would like to go and her too...just leave it absent mindedly on your desk w/o saying a word.

You get the drift. I feel you need to get maybe a little more creative and to get out more. I am not suggesting being pretentious or taking away from attempting to try to meet her other top EN's or doing anything LNing, but just to try to throw her a little off balance and make you a little more less predictabe. I agree with Herb in that it will take alot of time, but right now it just seems that she has so many opportunities to throw you off balance and bait you.

Just suggestions igrip...hang in.

Regards, Tom

Thank you all for the kind words of encouragement.

This morning, she told me she was leaving for work early. I asked if all was ok and she said 'she just wanted to get away and work was busy.' I said ok, if you need anything, let me know.

Anyway, she went to get dressed and she wore a new outfit and it looked AMAZING. I told her WOW many times. Our daughter told her she looked beautiful. I told her she looked better than when we first met 12 years ago...I was speaking from the heart and wow, just dreamy. She ended up staying through breakfast..did not talk, but at least she stayed.

Thank you all...time is my friend and I am praying and hoping for that. And we will do more quality time with our daughter...small steps towards her seeing us as good together.

Those are some great posts, mmmherb, great posts.

I'm following your thread more closely because your WW is spewing the exact same flavor of fog babble that mine did.

The zeroing in on a few bad moments and disregarding the hundreds of good ones.

How controlling we are (and she makes all the major decisions?), how we "stifle" them, how they "cringe" whenever we are around. Heard it all, word for word.

How any change we make is "too little, too late", how their feelings for us now can never change, how there is no "chemistry".

Then there is the most loaded fog-statement of them all, "I don't know if I even want to try." Let me translate that one right now - means "I have no intention of putting an ounce of energy into trying, and will resist everything that you do."

My WW wasn't even that smitten by the OM. She is just addicted to the thought of being single and finding a little escape where she can.

mmmherb is right in that lots of time and NO CONTACT is your only hope. Even then, your wife is so withdrawn from the marriage and has been for so long that she may never come back.

Me, I could never achieve NC and then there overtures to an OM#2 and possibly more. It was then that I knew I couldn't win.

I'm praying you have a better outcome. Take care.

I am praying for a better outcome as well.

I am glad I am becoming safe enough to talk to about my wrongdoings sometimes...at least she is talking.

We ran errands together this afternoon..her suggestion. Not much talk about anything important, but we spent time which is good and better than many other people from what I understand.

So, who knows....I am trying and will continue to try as hard as I can because my 'old' wife is worth fighting for (not this one that is impersonating her)

Last night, she was looking at houses online and this morning, telling me about what she is finding. This is fine ... one, she is talking to me...two, I am listening. So again, words words words. She is still here. I am grateful for that. Everything else, I will just take as it comes and continue being the best husband I can be at home.

Man, that's all you can do. If you're like me, you want to be able to fix it, do something.

I think you have a good idea of what is ahead now. I think your odds are relatively good. But it is a long, hard ride, especially without assurances. And I can't honestly give you those.

One thing, and this is my opinion, is that I would go easy on things like flowers, cards, etc. for now. Let your actions and attitude do the talking, not gestures. I found that flowers just gave her something to focus her anger on.

I got a lot of well meaning advice on here to do things like that. Big Kahuna put it to me this way (he is a man that has gone though this and is recovered, and has, IMO, the insight into this that I needed.)

The last thing a WW in withdrawal needs is "love noted on her pillow".

When some of the women called him on it, he responded.

Telling his wife in withdrawal how much he loves her will cause her to throw up.

I suspect he is right.

Just wait for that time to come, but don't push it.

I do agree..no pushing towards anything like that. Right now, calling her 'babe' (which is what I called her all the time..so I just do it naturally, not 'pushingly') makes her visibly cringe. I cannot do anything 'for' her - did the gift and flower thing the first two weeks of this mess (and she didn't accept anything lovingly). Even yesterday, my compliments to her were 'weird and she was still not changing her mind.' So, thank you..the more I hear from people here that have done this, the better. Today, is a rough day for me. You are just like me mmmherb..I WANT to be able to fix this now, but I have to accept that this is one thing in life that I cannot fix, force or rush.

Igrip, Plan A is NOT about your WW at all. Sounds weird right? All that is meant by that is that you are learning and changing YOU. It doesn't matter what your WW does or doesn't do. You have to ACT on Plan A instead of REACT to your WW. NO EXPECTATIONS. When you have expectations that your WW will act a certain way or say something in particular and she doesn't, YOU GET HURT. But, whose fault is it? YOU are the one who put those EXPECTATIONS on HER. So, don't EXPECT anything. Get it?

Today was a roller coaster for me....my own feelings, but still, a part of my day. I woke up tense. Upset. Sad. Stayed that way through the afternoon.

Afternoon, we both came home and we decided to go shopping. She started telling me again some of the ways I made her feel in the past. I let her know how I understood how I must have made her feel (validating her statements). In the car, she brought some more points up and I validated again..she was talking from an emotional abuse website she has been looking at. I did ask her what the difference was from emotional abuse to 'just being a jerk at times' because, honestly, that is what I am hearing. She also said those websites told her that 'compliments are a way of manipulating' by emotional abusers (which explained her cringing when I said something nice). I later told her that, in no way, were any nice things I said 'manipulative...that I meant every word from my heart.' Like her outfit yesterday...amazing and still is. No manipulation..just amazing.

Anyway, we are shopping and all is ok...uneventful day. She feels 'weird' with me paying for anything but I tell her 'you are still my wife and I still love buying you things.' We went to victoria secret and that is where it got weird..she went and tried on and then bought her stuff alone while I was playing with baby in the store. Yes, I know it is weird to have me around when she is not feeling 'sexy' for me, but still, that hurt.

We left and I did not say much. I told her it was a rough day and I was just overwhelmed..nothing to do with her, I told her, just my own emotions.

She asked if I wanted to eat at home or out..I told her I would do whatever she liked. We decided on out, drove around for about 10 minutes looking and then decided. She was looking at the menu worrying that it was expensive and I told her 'when have I ever made you think that food was too expensive'...she just answered that 'she felt weird.' During dinner, she asked me more questions about why I did certain things in the past. I told her I regretted doing those things, saying those things and that she did not deserve it. She was a wonderful woman. At one point, I called my daughter 'sweetie' and my wife said 'I have never heard you say that word before.' I told her there are many things that I am saying and doing that have never been seen before. She asked me some more questions about past behavior..and then said one thing that struck a chord with me: 'this is unfortunate.' Now, anyone else would think that as bad, but am I crazy to see that as a hopeful comment? I know I am grasping here, but I think she sees something...a tug on the heart? Peripheral vision of her heart maybe?

On our way home, she told me that years ago, she told a friend that 'it would take her leaving me for me to see that I was being dumb.' I told her I did see that I had been dumb, also selfish and blind. She said 'I just want to go away again' to which I answered 'that I was just telling her the truth to her questions...isn't that what she wanted?'

Came home, she put baby to bed, I mowed the lawn...then she came and told me a little story from the night....and then retreated to her room to relax for the evening.

Ah well, overall...a good day I think. Time together is a good thing. Thoughts?

Sounds like a good day, all in all.
I don't know. Don't drive yourself crazy. Even keel.

Even keel. I am trying, really I am. Had a fairly good day today. She was mad at the world overall after she came home from work. Finally, apologized...just was her issue - half work, 1/4 me because I was acting normal like nothing was wrong and 1/4 the situation in general.

Went to playground with our daughter..she 'opened up' a little, but not really. Did say one thing that struck a chord. "People can't be expected to change just like that." I asked her what she meant by that and she said "I've been expecting you to react a certain way for seven years now...it's going to take me a few years to get over that and get used to this." So, that was a good sign overall I thought that she was seeing my changes.

Then tonight, she is still mad mad mad. Why? She is writing down every wrong I ever did .... saved emails, texts, things she remembers me saying.....that is her 'project.' This cannot be helpful can it? She is mad inside....these things are little 'jerk' things I said or reacted to...I admit that. But what is she doing? Justifying her feelings for wanting out of this marriage? She did say no one can understand what she went through or is doing and that is why she is writing it down. Just to me, seems destructive. Not sure.

Again, I cannot base my moods and feelings on her. But can anyone chime in on what is going on in her mind? Thanks all...

""I've been expecting you to react a certain way for seven years now...it's going to take me a few years to get over that and get used to this." So, that was a good sign overall I thought that she was seeing my changes."

I agree. Time is needed for this is not 100m one 10k after another.

"Then tonight, she is still mad mad mad. Why? She is writing down every wrong I ever did .... saved emails, texts, things she remembers me saying...."

Again stop the crying in front of her, plan A her, and let time work on her.

IGrip:

Next time she brings up your changes, and how someone can change like that suddnely:

Ask her about HER CHANGES.

How she went from a woman who was married to someone who was willing to walk away from it all?
How she could start a secret relationship with another man.
How she could believe that it would be better for another person to raise her daughter.

So, you were a jerk in the past. This does not make you and "abuser" It just makes you a guy who didn't know about MB.

When she said that "It would take her leaving YOU to wake YOU up". Just agree with her. And you have WOKEN UP.

Tell her: You have LOOKED at what you were doing wrong in the past, and have worked to FIX that in yourself. It would be shame for her and DD to be the beneficiary of that.

Continue your snooping. Have you sent that pic of POSOM's butt to her friends? Or, what do you plan to do with that knowledge? Or the knowledge that you have gotten? Or the knowledge that you will collect in the future?

Or said another way, what actions have you taken this week to break up the affair?

LG