Awesome markos! Glad it went well! Fill us in when you get a chance.

HNHN for Parents was the first, and until recently only, Harley book I read and I really liked it. Some good stuff in there.

Never saw so many baseball fields in one place as I did flying out of Minneapolis...

How are things going?

If you've read my entire thread, perhaps you will remember this post:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2369582#Post2369582

Jun 7, after a painful disconnect between us that has lasted since last Tuesday, I sent my wife most of this post, verbatim, from "But I also believe ..." onward. And I added:


Some time earlier I had asked my wife when we should schedule our next appointment with Steve Harley, as it had been about three weeks and we were supposed to be seeing him every two weeks. She had responded "I don't particularly feel like talking to him." I replied "In that case, I will make the appointment for the next available morning." The next available morning was today, Jun 10. {That appointment has now transpired. I know it was very enlightening for me.}

The afternoon of Jun 8, Prisca had not replied to my "push" email and request, so in person when I got home from work, I asked if she had seen it. I can't remember exactly what she said, but I repeated the analogy for her and then said something like "This hurts. It's hurting both of us, so we are going to damage something if we keep pushing. Can we get someone to take a look at it, someone who believes in Marriage Builders principles and can tell us what we're doing wrong?" I may or may not have mentioned the forum. (From Prisca's memory, it appears that I did, so I probably did.) I hope I mentioned Steve and our coach. I was hoping that I might be able to persuade her that getting some help would be a good thing.

Prisca posted on the forum and emailed our coach. I don't believe she's heard back from her, yet, though we did talk with Steve this morning. I really appreciate that she reached out and took this positive step toward getting help for us. And I was also given the chance to see a LOT of specific differences in our understanding, things I probably never would have seen or known about if she hadn't written that post.

Nobody's asked me anything, other than what my intent was, so there it is. I'd probably answer a lot more, if people want to ask.

I have a question, and it is being pulled from Prisca's thread, so if I'm corssing a boundary, please let me know.

I'm concerned about your fear of using the POJA on bigger issues?

One of the things Chris mentioned back when she first did the course was that Harley said that as expectations are raised, it sometimes causes MORE problems initially. I have not phrased it as well as she did. Do you think this could be going on? That finding MB has raised both of your expectations of each other, BEFORE either of you has the tools and practice with them to truly be able to meet those expectations yet?

I think on my thread Mark1952 talks about space and grace. Sounds to me as if both of you need a bit of that right now. Not space in the sense of separation, but space in the sense of letting you be you and her be her and finding true intimacy in accepting that you are both doing the best you can and are committed to doing better every day.

No worries, think; ask me any questions you want.

I want POJA applied on all of our issues, big and small. I want us to use the FGSN process to negotiate solutions we will both be happy about, for all issues. So far we can't seem to agree on step 1, and as a result I do not feel safe. I'm sure Prisca feels even less safe.

I have sacrificed too many times over the past six years, if you define sacrifice as giving in to anything I am reluctant about. In fact most of the solutions offered here in MB101 by most posters seem to be that one spouse or the other should sacrifice (give in to something they are reluctant about). (Second most common solution seems to be Independent Behavior, which requires the other spouse to sacrifice.) Sometimes I reconsider an issue and decide that I am no longer reluctant about something. Sometimes when I do that it turns out I am resentful later.

Sometimes I can tell that something is so big that sacrificing is going to make my Taker permanently unhappy. That's not a good thing for our marriage.

So what I want is to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement: we don't do it until we have enthusiastic agreement. We're quite capable of POJA, and we're quite capable of FGSN, and I'm eager to begin.

I hope that makes it a little more clear.

Feeling dumb. What is FGSN?

Sometimes sacrifice is necessary for marriage. Even Dr. H says so. I don't have time to hunt down the article.

The problem arises when we sacrifice as habit, or expect our spouse to do so.

The problem also arises when our love bank is already low or negative balance. At that point we are VERY reluctant to sacrifice.

If we work on rebuilding our love banks and get them to overflowing, the occasional sacrifice will not be the end of the world for either party.

I think the matra around here is Sacrifice=Resentment. And we use that as a justification to NEVER EVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES SACRIFICE. Which would be great if we lived in a perfect world, which we don't, or if we were perfect people, which we aren't. This month my husband has to work really late most nights. This is beyond our control. Of course he could quite his job. Or he could have a plan to get a new job. But neither of those things does anything to address the fact that TODAY I am required to sacrifice.

Resentment could very well be the natural consequence of this. However, resentment is also a choice that I make myself. I can sit here and justify my feelings of resentment because after all, I am a victim, I am having to sacrifice. Or, I can have a different attitude of acceptance. I can accept that this is something neither of us can change or fix. It just is. And I'm not the only one sacrificing; he is too. Life isn't about being happy all the time. It isn't about being in love all the time either. I can accept that this too shall pass, and that better days are ahead as long as I focus on my own happiness and contentment here and now. My choosing to justify my own irritablility does my marriage no favors. Does me no favors either. I can choose a different attitude, even if I have to sacrifice.

Now a marriage built on a culture of mutual sacrifice is a horse of a different color. That's not what I'm talking about.

Specifically, what are you afraid of sacrificing now?

FGSN is Four Guidelines For Successful Negotiation. It's basic concept #10.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.html

I've said it quietly here a time or two, but POJA is not a verb. POJA is a policy you adopt to preserve your spouse's feelings of love. You can basically adopt it by yourself.

FGSN is a verb. FGSN is how you try to get what you both need instead of just doing nothing.

I'm a little sad to see people say "I presented POJA to my husband/wife, and he/she said it was just another way for me to get what I want." That's a misunderstanding of POJA, and to clear it up you need to understand FGSN (the process) and the two types of resentment in marriage.

I've only seen the FGSN acronym used by Dr. Harley, and only in Effective Marriage Counseling.

I just got done reading Love Busters chapter 3 at lunch, for our lessons, and I'm thrilled to see that FGSN has been added to this chapter (we just bought two new copies because ours was older and we heard Dr. Harley had revised it; I'm so glad we did). It doesn't include the acronym, but it's there. And he also explains how his Thoughtful Request and Respectful Persuasion processes are basically adaptations of the same guidelines. I'm not sure I like the changes to the RP process, but I only glanced at it; it's the next chapter.

Yes, you are right. Temporary sacrifice for long-term gain. Like Plan A.


Anything big and non-temporary, when approached in ways that are not thoughtful and considerate of my feelings. I don't want Prisca to discover that I am severely resentful later.

Thanks Markos! I thought I was missing something

I like to think of problem solving as a chance for us to be creative together. That gives me a lot more motivation. Also, it is a chance for conversation, to understand each other's point of view without judging it.

The way I apporach POJA is that I ask for help. I have a problem, can you provide a solution? And as long as there is a solution offered by my spouse that I can agree to, I take it! Instant deposit for both of us. And an extra for him, because I asked for his help and he was able to provide it, and that is a chance for me to give him Admiration too. Top EN for him.

If none of his solutions work for me, then I offer my own. Hopefully one of mine will work for him.

If it's a particularly tough one, then we brainstorm together, throw up the outrageous solutions that could never happen. Because maybe they could, if we both agreed enthusiastically.

Fear of being hurt can certainly undermine the process. You can't control her fear of getting hurt, but you can protect yourself. Fear is FALSE EXPECTATIONS APPEARING REAL. Focus on making it safe for her, and when she tries to push your buttons, gently point it out, maybe even in a joking light way, and ask her to stop. Don't pick up and walk away right away. Give her the chance to correct the behavior.

Do you all pray together? Maybe it would be a good idea to pray before POJA. Pray out loud. Pray, "Lord, please help me to listen to my spouse and to hear what she has to say, and to keep our marriage safe as we struggle with this problem. We know you have a solution, or that your grace will help us if there is no solution."

Thanks for the comments, think. I see brainstorming and all of that creativity as coming in the future. It's all in FGSN. We just have to put it into practice.

No, we don't pray together. I think we will be, in the future.


When I've eliminated selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts, that'll certainly help.

For the record, I wopped Prisca over the head with a pillow last night, and I think it helped.

FGSN?

*

I love to laugh with my H, and him "whopping me over the head" would do the trick.

:-)

Whopping usually helps me too

There you have it: 3 out of 3 Marriage Builders women agree, wopping the wife over the head with a pillow is a good way to get back on track.

Unfortunately, after I got to bed last night, wife stole all my pillows. And then when we turned out the lights, she wopped me over the head.

Telly, if you didn't see, yet, FGSN is Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation; Basic Concept #10: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.html

Thanks to a thoughtful request from Prisca this morning, I am now replacing an annoying habit of driving at four miles above the speed limit with a new habit of driving exactly the speed limit.

(My new habit may be annoying to some other drivers on the road, but I'm not married to them, so they can go around me. :P )

Kudos on your decision, markos. And to Prisca on her request.



LA

I always keep it at 9 and under so it stays off my insurance. But as long as you're not driving the speed limit in the far left lane, you're cool. There's nothing worse than someone driving slower than the person behind them wanting to go in the left lane.