Saying the mans name during sex and looking at him is a definite turn on for most men. I always loved the emotional bond of sex so it definately added to that.

Saying that my sex life was never that great with the WW even before the A. So it wont be that hard to improve. I couldn't hold myself back properly. Thats why I originally went on antidepressants for the reduced sexual drive. I did ok on the second go round but she was never interested in spending that much time on it. She just never enjoyed sex that much and didn't want to be pleased.

I can guarantee you that I will be worried about how I stack up to the OM if I ever have SF again. Especially if i can tell she is frustrated. Dont get me wrong ill get mine and all but I ENJOY pleasing her as well. I feel I could improve with practice but at the rate we enjoyed SF in the past few years thats impossible. I think it was about 5 times in the last 2 years. Thats an untenable situation.

I can back up what others are saying. It takes time. I like Peps take on it. I agree with her. Just chiming in for encouragement.

Dear D&S, Just when I think I have heard the saddest story ever someone comes along and writes something that makes me want to cry. I do not think I would be able to heal from that, God bless you and I will be praying that someday God removes those horrible images from your head. Why would they take pictures of themselves...Grrrr!

My BH has always used sex as a weapon throughout our whole marriage and it got exponentially worse after my EA. And now, because I did not show "repentance" sexually enough (see my thread for details, but you probably don't want to) he is divorcing me.

But way before my EA he told me he'd divorce me if I didnt' do An** sex.

MiM, thanks for your reply--it's helpful to hear from BHs and FWWs especially. in response to your comment in bold, i sympathize--nothing's worse than being tolerated or made to feel that you're using someone.

these are rather personal questions so don't feel compelled to reply--but any other BHs out there, i'd welcome your input:

at what point could you kiss your wife without feeling gross?

at what point did you let her start sleeping in your bed again?

basically, when could you separate your sexual desire and enjoyment of your wife from your anger at her infidelity? when did your wife feel like YOURS again?

darn right that's untenable--you took antidepressants to SUPPRESS your sex drive...and she had an affair. go figure. i can't wait for her to give you a FIGHTING CHANCE--one fine day she's going to realize that you've been a great husband to her all along. in fact, i read your post this a.m. and it sounds like the fog is beginning to dissipate...

best of luck! and thanks for replying on here, it's great to hear BH's perspectives!

howtoheal, i read your thread when you first started posting. i was appalled at your husband and i'm sorry you felt compelled to submit to that. it's only S&M if one person is S and the other is M. (ties in well with the policy of joint agreemnet, yes?) otherwise it's just ABUSE. i congratulate you on your impending divorce.

I have tried to stay away from this thread, but I guess I will comment.

I am also a FWW, D-day was July of 2006. After D-Day, I didn't think DH would be able to touch me for a long time, and I wouldn't have blamed him. But the next day, he wanted me. And the next, next, etc. I didn't know it was called hysterical bonding or anything about him reclaiming me. I just couldn't believe he would still love me or want to be near me after the horrible thing I had done....and that SF was toe-curling and mind-bending.

What I didn't know was that DH was trying hard to erase those thoughts and mind movies. And he couldn't. So after a short while....he just needed a break from my body. It was too hard for him to have those thoughts interrupting SF. Which was completely understandable. And it wouldn't last forever.

We spent time working through and talking through just about every aspect of recovery. We took time. He let himself be angry, hurt, let himself grieve. I let myself feel the weight of what I had done, see it for what it was, fully repent. The one area we did not dissect was SF. I'm not sure why....may be because it IS so intimate.

Four years later, we can talk about our feelings. We can talk about our irritations. We can talk about money and the house and the kids. And even though we are not perfect and we each have things to work on (esp me), we can usually navigate these things. However, we had SF 4 times last year. We have had SF once this year. It is the elephant in the room that gets alluded to but never conquered. I took that beautiful gift and shared it with someone else, so even 4 years later part of me feels selfish for wanting it so much. And yes, part of me feels mad that I still feel selfish four years later.

So whether you are a BS or a FWS, my advice would be that while recovering the SF aspect of things takes TIME and care....don't ignore it. Don't relegate it indefinitely to the back burner. Because once it becomes "invisible," it is hard to conquer it.

L2, thank you SO much. your experience sounds much like mine--H and I have come so far in other areas, but SF is difficult to talk about without damaging someone's ego, taking all the fun out of it, or otherwise reducing it to formula. i don't believe it SHOULD be dissected the way, say, domestic responsibilities should be.

my concern is that we ARE basically starting from scratch, and i hate the sexual dynamic we've got going, and i'm not in a position to tell him we need to fix this, buddy. i can totally put myself in H's shoes and tell myself he has a right to his feelings and reactions.

i suppose what bothers me is that i'm afraid he'll never kiss me on the mouth again, and that i'll always have to be invited to sleep in his bed.

there's a term for women who don't get kissed beforehand, and who are expected to leave the room afterward. you follow?

I took ADs because I thought the reason she wasnt enjoying sex was because of my less than optimal stay time. In actuality it was most likely the EA that was going on. I she was well on her way vilifying me.

I have every belief that she will eventually realize what she had. The question is will it be 10 years and 2 more broken marriages for her later. I am going through the plan but even Plan B has an end date. Im not going to live like this the rest of my life.

I appreciate you reading it. I value your input as I do everyones. I just dont share your optimism. Im not going to fall for the banana in the tail pipe again.

Havent kissed her yet. I would if she would let me. Judging from pre D-Day though her triggers and inhibitions are going to be the limiting factor.

Id sleep with her tonite if she wanted me too. SF not till she took a full battery of STD tests and signed a reconciliation agreement.

Remain,

I posted to you on your other thread, and what I posted is applicable here. You DO need to talk to your H about this. You have the right more the obligation to tell him what you need and how you need it. He has the same obligation.

If you want a good marriage, this above all else must be discussed, because intimacy is THE most imporant part of marriage for most men and women. Men for sure. It does not mean 4 times a day. What it means is that you two SHARE intimacy with each other and that starts in the brain. It starts with knowing you can "trust" the other with your most intimate desires and needs and the spouse can with you.

You want intimacy emotionally? Then seek intimacy physically, by discussing it. He will see movies but you can replace them by talking, and by doing. He can help himself and you by doing the same. He will begin to "hear" your voice, your ideas, your desires in his head rather than "see" the movie of you and OM.

Talk, talk, ask, ask, listen, listen.

Please think about this.

JL

true, that. clean bill of health is an obvious prerequisite. any former waywards reading this, be courteous and give your spouse the results w/out being asked!

JL, i ALWAYS think about what you have to say!

ok, here's my take: i know that it's a natural tendency in women to rely on emotional intimacy as a precursor to physical intimacy, and that men rely on sexual fulfillment to to build or renew feelings of emotional closeness.

i've tried to keep that in mind so i don't get that poor-pitiful-me, look-how-well-i'm-submitting mindset.

is it ok to talk about, you think? at this point? keep in mind, we didn't go the classic plan-A route...i'm the one doing the winning-back. i guess what i'm asking is...at what point does the betrayed spouse become receptive to requests and expectations from the wayward spouse? when will that be my right?

Untill my wife had proven to me way back when that she really wanted me and only me, and that took two years of separation and a lot of work on her part, sex went from me getting what was owed me to eventually intimacy, trust, and closeness. Without that trust and the intimacy that followed it sex was cold and full of anxiety, movies that played in my head, and i would not let myself fully let my guard down.
I would say it took 5 years to get back to the best it ever was after the first recovery. But it was never the best it could have been. I was allways more passionate sexually than she was. I attributed that to her past and state of mind, along with her fear of intimacy.

After the second affair and her consequent sickness of relapse into addiction there was a period of time that I tried to re-claim her. That was more like self-abuse as I blamed myself in a co-dependant way. She never came out of the drug fog in those years and love was about caring for her in her sickness, and as it took her mind away she was a shell of who she once was. She was allways childish and stubborn and had fits of bitter rebelion. But before the drugs she had moments of childish enthusiasum and positive attitude, A rollercoaster yes, but the highs were better and the lows didn't drop so low.

Then of course sex wasn't an option when she came home. There were bigger fish to fry. I held her as much as I could but she never got well or even wanted me. Heck she didn't love herself anymore, how could she love me? But that is not the same as with healthy people still able to reason.


But for normal recovery with healthy people who are working hard on full repentance and forgiveness. Even with those things in place our inner fear of rejection in such a sensitive area as sexual relations can take years.

By actively protecting the marriage and therefore each other while understanding how fragile relationships can be, you can appreciate the gift you recieve from the love they give you, and imagine the pain if you betrayed them. Desire will come back as fast as trust and intimacy does. Who would want someone who is only playing a game? Using you? Faking it? Why would you share yourself with them? Untill you can trust them with your life again sex will not be what it could be or was maybe at one time. But with enough hard work it could be better than ever over time.

Its easier said than done might be something to reflect on as we struggle with forgiveness and trust. Even once there is total repentance and demonstrated seriuos effort and sincerity from the wayward the fear of relapse or being lied to again will keep us in a defensive mindset and we will be keeping our guard up. Its normal and to be expected, and it many times seems futile, but time, demonstrated devotion, little things that inspire you again, will lead you to trust again.

Openess and honesty about feelings with the idea going in that you are purging the relationship of all the negative crap that effected it in the first place so you can restore it will go a long way to set the stage. You are both human beings and it will take time to heal. You were not designed to take this betrayal lightly internally. It will take longer than is comfortable to come to full forgiveness, but its where you must go for full recovery. It can be the greatest growth experience in your life and you can share it together but it will take patience and hard work.

Im sorry. I originally wanted to simply state my experience with the sexual part of recovery, which is the litmus test of all the other parts of the relationship IMO, and I pray you will all get back to toe-curling simultaneous O's where you both collapse exhausted and smiling. I sort of went off on my own rant and gave my opinion, (yeah like THAT never happens, lol)

I would be wrong to not mention that its soooo important that the WS comes to full repentance and has seen how selfish and abusive thier affair was. They must see that they had no right to do that to thier mate and they are the problem while working and waiting for the BS to heal. The BS needs to recognize true repentance also and give credit when they see it, while allowing the past to be gone as they forgive them and let them off the hook as they earn it.

" To Err is human, to forgive is divine" I am not saying we can totally forgive as God does, and we can turn the other cheek but we only have two. It took faith to start this journey with someone else in life. I think it takes it to maintain it. We all can lean on Him for the lessons and tools we need spiritually as we use the common sense tools in MB.


May God bless all of you and restore you.

An interesting question. I assume you're referring to intimate kissing. That stopped between my FWW and I well before her A. I don't know why. Even when our M appeared to be recovering before her A, it didn't happen. She told me that it did happen between her and the OM, with her initiating at times. Post-A, it was one of the things I tried to "recover". We talked about it a bit, but the one attempt we actually engaged in it post-A just felt very awkward. I've tried once or twice since, but she's shown no real interest. Almost an aversion to doing it, in fact. I've basically dropped the issue, and don't mention it again.



My Fww never stopped sleeping in my bed, except for one or two nights when we were too upset at each other for that to happen.



From almost the very start I was able to separate the two - otherwise it would have been impossible to engage in the "hysterical bonding" that happened post D-Day . I do remember however that just after SF, I would sometimes feel incredibly depressed, feeling that what I'd shared with my FWW, she had chosen to share with the OM, and in our bed too boot.

To date, my FWW doesn't feel like mine. Her betrayal was so complete (I think, among other things, her inviting the OM into our bed has resulted in permanent damage to my trust in her) that I'm likely never going to feel that way about her.

BTW, the very fact that you're asking these types of questions demonstrates to me that you are really interested in restoring the intimacy in your M. Such a contrast from my FWW's approach (she used to post here a few times as "Tangled", but now she dislikes the MB forum - she considers it a bad influence on me).

Remain,

You said
True as far as it goes, but it goes deeper Remain. Men can have sex, even meaningless sex and get relief. But, men that make love, must feel loved just like women do. I will tell you from experience that men find enthusiastic sex the best, and they find the best enthusiastic sex with a woman they love and that loves them. Please think deeply about this and then talk with your H.

He does not want pity sex and neither do you. So your efforts are in the right direction, at least in my book they are.



Right? I don't know that it ever becomes your 'right'. You are in fact married to your H. You are in fact one with him in Biblical terms. You OWE yourself and therefore your H to speak of expectations, of needs, of love, of how to love the best and most enthusiastically. You did not lose your "right" to speak up. Your H has remained married to you, thus you are his W, his partner, his lover, his other half. Don't you see?

Did you read my post about gifts and making lists? Well, this is the same thing. I can say with a great deal of confidence that most BS's lose confidence in themselves and their ability to make their WS happy. Nothing could more graphically illustrate this to them than an affair. Your H NEEDS to know what makes you happy, what makes you feel love/loved, what you see in him that makes you desire to remain married to him.

I think you are looking at this all wrong. You need to understand, that until there is a divorce you two are a team and if you happy, he will be happy. If he is happy you will be happy. That is what you seek. A situation that is win-win for both of you and you WILL NOT achieve this situation unless you and he have good, honest, frank, sometimes painful, and always support talks. You cannot get the marriage you want by hanging back. He made the step to remain married to you, you make the step to help him rebuild himself and he will help you rebuild your marriage.

The time for "I'm sorry's" is past. It is now time for talk, and discussing win-win situations so that you are both happy.

Notice anything about my last few posts to you??? They are all about you "talking" and "listening" to your H and he doing the same thing.

I know he reads here, so show him my posts if no others and see what he says about my comments.

God Bless,

JL

MiM, first off, it took 2 years for me to even consider seeking outside help of any sort. H and i were sort of in the public eye and regarded as mentors to unhappy couples. OUCH. so i felt like the worst kind of hypocrite--rightly so--and had no one in whom i could confide w/out leading them to question THEIR marital commitments. i called around at catholic churches asking if they'd allow me to participate in Confession. or Reconciliation, they call it now. (i'm not catholic, but was raised in the faith and believe Catholics have the keenest understanding of human nature--sometimes you need to hear a PERSON tell you you're forgiven, you know?) MB is saving our marriage as we speak--not just saving us from divorce, but from a cold, dreary existence. neither of us NEEDS a roommate or a housekeeper. we don't want to put up with each other. we want to LOVE one another.

when i found MB, i was still foggy as all get-out, 2 years after the fact. i couldn't indulge in any overtly foggy behavior, but my mind was dead wrong. my first post was a whiny rant about what a good wife i was and how much i missed OM. and that was like 2 WEEKS ago. MB is no joke.

2nd point, of COURSE your WW is going to view MB as a bad influence. she's going to view basic facts (i.e. adultery is wrong and it hurts people...DUH) as condemning and accusatory. WWs need something to rebel against--if we can't blame some external circumstance, we have to blame ourselves, and that's really painful.

the good news is, once a WW realizes that she was NOT led astray by her emotions, she'll realize the hard fact that she didn't just allow infidelity, she trained herself for infidelity. if you admit that you have enough control over your mind and emotions to systematically dismiss a lifetime of moral training, to skew absolute truths to suit your fleeting desires, you realize you can do anything with your mind. which CERTAINLY includes cultivating a new, lasting love for your husband. AND one learns to guard against mental and emotional weakness so one will never be unfaithful again.

i'll be following your thread with interest and with hope, MiM. keep well, sir.

L! And any other FWWs reading this! check this out, i think it's a compartmentalization thing--even once our Hs love us and trust us with their CONSCIOUS minds, they feel guarded about enjoying sex with someone who betrayed them. sort of a won't-get-fooled again sort of thing. we all know sex is powerful and that we form tighter bonds w/ people who satisfy us sexually--maybe BSs are hesitant to give their WSs an opportunity to exploit that power?? strictly conjecture, but it makes sense. so listen--

TRY THIS: cuddle up to H when he's 2/3 asleep...very demure, just enjoying a good snuggle...THEN get frisky. he'll welcome your physical presence just because it feels good to hold someone when you're falling asleep. he'll be awake enough to appreciate it and he'll be too sleepy to overthink it. take it from there, wink wink nudge nudge. he'll be a sport. take this time to whisper to him everything to him that you'd say if you were in an uninhibited, implicitly trusting, never-been-damaged, happy marriage.

chemistry can be tricky--you can have a great post-affair relationship and be very loving towards one another in every other area and still have cold, distant, grudging sex, if any. been there?--ok, i was saying, CHEMISTRY is unpredictable, but BIOLOGY if failsafe.

i'm not suggesting you just take advantage of the poor guy and like, have your way with him--i'm saying, if he loves you but he's having a hard time w/ accepting you sexually, this takes the awkwardness and fighting-w/-his-mental-images out of the equation. he'll wake up liking you a little better, too.

FWWs, let me know how this goes! WWNN now stands for wink-wink-nudge-nudge.

and BHs, let me know if this makes you want to sling her wayward A55 out of bed, or if it helps you overcome your distrust.

happy experimenting, chemistry buffs!

Yes this will work. I can tell you as a guy the one or 2 times my wife woke me up for sex it was fine by me. Or at least i THINK it was since it has been at least 4 or 5 years since it happened.

Couple tips though from a guy.

Need to have yourself already prepped. Some KY or whatever you wanna do to get yourself warmed up. I hate hurting my wife during SF. Sure i will "finish" but it loses its emotional affect when I know she is in pain just for me. It reminds you of the martyr syndrome again.

Dont expect too much foreplay from us if you wake us up. Likely we wont be very awake and our guy bodies natural reaction is to just want sex. If we wake up during well if you ask alot of guys will take care of you too. I know it makes me happy and almost proud when i can satisfy my wife.

Beware it if your husband has a clean fetish. Some guys CANT go to sleep unless the clean up first. Dont be offended some guys are just built that way. If they do when they get back just curl up with him, purr, or tell him how much he pleased you when he gets back like like he never left.