Yes. Quite frankly, after she confessed to me on D-Day, I told her that I didn't understand why, but I wanted her right there, right now. What happened might be a little TMI.



To some degree, yes. I have had mind movies for a very long time, with diminishing frequency as marital R progresses. At first, those movies were a spur to me, as in "Let me SHOW you how it's supposed to be done!" It was a somewhat angry act on my part, but maybe because she understood it, she responded to it in a way that bolstered my ego. It was clear that I was taking care of her in the process, so that definitely helped.

Later, when she finally broke down and gave me a full and true version of how things started and progressed, she told me that he wasn't all that good, and that I clearly outclassed him in the sack, both physically and performance-wise. (I'm a guy, so that "physically" part mattered A LOT.) What made me really believe the things she told me about this is what she whispered to herself after telling me about his issues. "I almost threw everything away for THAT."

After I got past the anger phase about nine months after D-day, the mind movies would cause me to go pfffft. At first, her tears would flow because she knew why things went awry, but the last couple of times she's done something to startle me and get me back on track and things have been mutually satisfying. I appreciate her for doing that, believe me. That's also cut down on the unwanted cinema in my head.


I have made an effort NOT do to that. I know doing that would cause problems down the road, so I've done my best to avoid it. Things WILL get better, so it's best not to be the one to toss the proverbial turd in the punchbowl.


Nope. If she doesn't like it with me, then what's the whole point of this whole exercise anyway? I want her yelling, shaking, moaning, and having a grand ol' sweaty time. As a famous writer put it, that's a form of applause. And quite honestly, that's half the fun in the first place.

ahead, i dig your attitude most sincerely. congrats on your happy recovery!

with regards to penance--i understand that totally. i'm only surprised that YOU'VE got such a keen grasp on it. you and your wife must talk a lot, and for that, i applaud you. like clap-clap-clap, i hasten to add; that kind of applause. =)

and for the first time ever, i'm going to have to ask for a reference re literary quote. who've i been missing???

thank you for your post, sir--this gives me something to look forward to!

indeed, ladies. good to have a male perspective, thank you sir.

YEG: i suck at quotes, so let me respond bullet by bullet:

if the ladies are initiating, we don't expect ANY foreplay unless WE'RE prepared to make it happen.

if we're sneaking up on our husbands in the middle of the night and pouncing on them, KY is probably a moot point.
excellent point, though, ladies: be primed head-to-toe, brazilian wax, perfume, whatever your optimum prettiness level is. perfume especially, come to think of it, something he associates with happier times. scent is a strong trigger of emotional reactions and memories, that's why we so readily associate mom with apple pie. if you wore chanel 05 before, wear it now.


YEG, it jolly well SHOULD make you proud to satisfy your wife. make that pride innate, not conditional--not "i did well this time" but "i rock. period." i mean, stay considerate, naturally, but don't let her reaction on any given night define how you regard your prowess.

RN,

Actually, we haven't been talking as much as I'd like. I'm the talker in this relationship -- kinda backwards here. But we HAVE been together for over 28 years, married for 25, and I'm starting to get clued in on how she really thinks. I can be pretty dense, but I've been watching her like a hawk since D-Day and have gotten better at picking up non-verbal cues. And she's all-in on recovery, 100%, no doubt about it.

As for penance, even lapsed Catholics get it, ya know?

The author, by the way, is Robert Heinlein, who isn't exactly MB material, if you get my drift. I always considered him my favorite science fiction writer, but nowadays I get a different feel for some of his work. If you've read his stuff, you'll know what I mean.

Stay strong, keep working the MB system, and hang in there. It's a marathon, not a sprint. In fact, it's a roller coaster wilder than the Viper or American Eagle. Believe it.

Ahead, you have been married longer than i've existed. that's EXCELLENT.

I don't know if you've read this whole thread, but i mentioned offhand earlier that although i'm not Catholic, i believe that Catholics have the best understanding of human nature--we can accept in faith that God has forgiven us, but sometimes we need to hear it from a visible, audible person.

Heinlein--as in "Stranger in a Strange Land?" HA HA HA!!! extraordinarily apt quote, though!

you bet i'll hang in there. watch me now!

I can�t speak for anyone else but I think this very much is taking advantage of him. When you talk about being too sleepy to over think it�just feeling good to hold someone�that is taking advantage of the situation. The betrayed spouse isn�t ready yet for sexual intimacy, so you�re suggesting that you strike at the moment when they are just about in REM sleep and not thinking straight. This is almost like saying to give the guy a few drinks so his inhibitions are down and he�s not thinking straight.

I would think this would work long enough until he came fully to his senses and then he�s pissed.

How is this going to make him wake up liking you better? It does nothing to erase or ease the memories and pain of what has happened. All that has happened is you�ve tried to have your way with him because you were in the mood.

Great idea and good advice

Hienlien,,,Starship Troopers right? My son and his freind said he was an excellent writer. Ok not a T/J.


Kilted, I have to disagree with you. You are right it is what you can call a little bit underhanded. But the intention needs to be understood, and its part of the reparations that need to be made. Dr H backs that up.

Also, if a Mate started to take advantage of the BSs eagerness to recover and uses it for a way to make them pay, although it might happen a few times, in the long run I would hope they would reason this away in the spirit of what the marriage should become.

The crap people sell themselves that causes marriages to be damaged is decietful at its core. The chemistry in our heads that breed the thoughts that lead to affairs is the enemy. We are at war with that. The insecurity and pain that comes from the betrayal needs to be eliminated without predjudice.

Eventually both parties will either reason away with accountability the issues coming from the affair, and agree to see that this was an attack on both of them, through the marital union, or use the affair to ruin the rest of thier lives.

I say fight to rise above it any way available that we have to get our friend and lover for life back. Brings to mind the saying, "Alls fair in love and war". What we are learning is what love is, and its a war to protect it.

I had to separate the issues attacking my wife from what attacked the marriage in my past. They are one in the same. I also had to deal with how or was I being manipulated as it applied to her personal issues. But I recognized when she was clearly devoted to the marriage and the actions that healed the relationship as positive even if there were other issues that threatened it. This is tough work and a fight worth waging. Grab a foothold where you can. We are all worth it.

Like I said and many here know, this is war. Untill the insecurity can be eliminated in the demonstrated actions of both parties, Totally open and honest communication is not posible because you even stop trusting yourself.

Your right that its that open and honest communication that strengthens the realtionship and how we grow together but both parties are in a place full of guilt and fear. It will take time and extrordiary measures to recover to the place where we share ourselves completly again because we trust each other, while challanging ourselves to build the marriage. and like the other poster said, "Don't get fooled again"

kilted, that was not my intention--i thought it was clear that we're not waking H out of a dead sleep, nor are we sneaking into his bedroom like some sort of jungle operatives trying to get ours and sneak out. if my motives were predatory, i wouldn't be posting on a recovery forum. listen, let me clarify:


disclaimer: this is for couples who love each other, who are following MB principles in guiding their recovery, and who DO want sexual intimacy. everyone here loves their spouse enough to make an effort towards recovery, and everyone needs sex to some degree. THIS IS FOR COUPLES WHO ARE HAVING SEX, BUT WHO MISS MAKING LOVE. i haven't heard from ANYONE who has just said, well, i've forgiven my wife and i love her and all, but no, i don't believe i'll be having sex with her anymore, ever.



kilted, would you be shocked and horrified to wake up and remember that you made love to your wife the night before? did she try this? did it go poorly? DID you in fact have to sling her out of bed?



au contraire to that bit in bold! No sir! we're grown women, we have access to sex toys, and we have no interest in USING our husbands. we're trying to help our husbands build new, happy associations w/ us+sex to replace the old memories that we contaminated w/ our affair.

this was not intended to be a "hey ladies, here's a sneaky way to get one over on H while his defenses are down." this is a way to show H that you are HIS, that you are giving yourself back to him for keeps. it's a tiny step towards melding emotional intimacy w/ physical desire.

kilted, we don't want to trick our husbands anymore. this is for wives are are trying to make things right.

sorry if i flipped on you, Kilted. i just felt like i needed to clarify so no one else got the wrong idea re motives and outcome. i respect your opinions, sir, and i'd welcome more.

i'm the type of indiscriminately social extrovert who doen't talk BEFORE thinking, but who talks as a FORM of thinking. your post led me to clarify my original "eureka!" and for that, i thank you.

best regards,
Nameless

I didn't think you flipped out. I mistook what you were saying in that you were advocating taking advantage of your betrayed spouse when they weren't in a keen frame of mind. This isn't something I've had to deal with...I was just putting myself in that situation.


Perhaps I think too much. Either way....:)

If it makes any difference I think you both have valid points of view. Myself I would rather say Remains way would bring in good actions that would help heal. I also think it can be veiwed as manipulation. I have felt that way too kilted.

In the end, the two in the marriage have to make the choice how to think about it. To make the decision of what behavior they prefer for healing. I am biased because it worked for me. I had children with her. She had the capacity to be anything she wanted to be. She had qualitys that were deeper than her looks and I saw that. We also at that age, 30 and 31 had libidos and we were allways attracted to each other. So it all fit for us.

As far as my personal desires for relationship I had allways wanted a romantic marriage, but I'm adult enough to know that it alone doesn't define me. In order for me to be healthy I need to have a good relationship we me first. I needed to have a clear conscience and think things thru. I beleive men tend to "think to much" generally. The emotional connection is harder for us to trust. We need womans point of view and we would be foolish not to know that, especially when it comes to thier ussual insight into emotional issues.

I also see the connection to how we still need that cheerleader/support, and softness with mercy connection. Most evident to me is how my children are reacting since my wife lost that role due to sickness. My 25 year old daughter has been a suportive woman with her relationships with boyfriends and her husband for years, and the two boys also are caretakers in thier relationships but need girlfreinds to make that tender connection they lost from thier Mom.

I keep my boys aware of how the role of thier Mom is missing from thier life, and that its said that your Mom is your first girlfreind experienually, so they can know themselves and what makes them tick and avoid any assumtions internally that what they feel is allways right. Men also seek relationship to feel whole. If Mom was around and still healthy she would be part of what they seek in thier girlfriends, and to appreciate thier role in that support.so far, so good.

My daughter says when she lost her Mom she lost her best friend. Mom had a way of reasoning at one time that was clear and responsible pertaining to personal accountability, along with one of the most understanding hearts you will ever find. Backed up with common sense and an overblown sense of responsibility that made her a force to be reconed with. My duaghter remembers this best because mom didn't fall apart till she was 16. She refered to Mom as a warrior at the eulogy. But Mom understood her and had that affinity that women do. Its not the same loss for the boys that is was for her. She lost the personal guidance as a women understands. The boys still have thier Dad around for when they need him for those issues that "come up" in life as they get older.

The point being we really need each other to be a more whole and rounded stronger version of ourselves. The way we forgive ourselves and restore our self-worth is uniquly different for everyone. When we are dealing with someone else as closly as we do in a marriage who is part of that stronger union who is struggling with forgiving themselves and desiring restorattion its important that we encourage them every way we can, but let them come to full terms of accounability on thier own, in thier own way, while not losing the war and compromising the ground rules we need to keep for our own health emotionally.

We have to ask ourselves what does a healthy marriage look like? What do we want? Then act that way as soon as posible any way we can. Hopefully with total honesty and with the enthusiasm to support each other in a joint venture to build the marriage we want.

Thats the beauty of MB. Dr H gives us the tools to make a good marriage, God knows we are not valued by our IQ or position in life we find ourselves in. Relationship-wise if we love each other to the best of our capacity we have done all we can. With the tools here we can build a marrige that is unique as we both are, there is no other relationship with another person that will be the same. Its not "cookie cutter" philosphy. Rich or poor, damaged or strong, educated or GED, the learning of the basic realities of what it takes for an exciting, supportive, romantic and strong marriage is all you need to learn and act upon. The bowling league and stock market are just details outside the marriage. They require less investment and work and are less valuable in the long run IMO.

As a man I can testify that the logic we guys embrace does not allways apply in a marriage, not when we are working to forgive something as deeply painful as infidelity. It helps to understand we are also forgiving ourselves because they are part of us now, and they are not part of the thought process ATM when we are being critical in an attempt to reason it out. They are separate but one with us. I need God to help me with that. I guess thats why we vow to him and not each other because He knows we will need him.

Hey remain, I think I just did it too. Talked as a form of thinking, Lol.

Gotta run, hope this helps and is at least a little pertinent to the thread.

Hey kilted, I try to allways keep my guard up so I totally understand your POV