Tom, you are talking about others setting the bar too high but I can't help but wonder if it is actually you setting the bar too high. You talk about your wife being your best friend yet it seems like you think it will not be possible to achieve romantic love with her.

Romantic love is NOT what you see in the movies - what you see in the movies always includes some sort of drama like choosing between two people. If the movies kept rolling for another year or two down their lives, you'd see a lot of unhappiness, I bet.

You can achieve that feeling of romantic love with your current wife if you both spend a little more time engaged with each other, try a little harder to meet each other's needs, and avoid LBs.

I get that to a point. One can have fun along the way, but if you don't actually end up reaching the goal, it was all for nothing. Yes there will be frustration along the way and disapointment, but you have to reach that goal to achieve happiness.

So because it might not work it is not worth trying?

See I believe happiness is found in the doing - not in the attaining.

Life never works out the way we plan - but if we strive for the best we will get better than what we have now.

There are always disappointments, setbacks, griefs. I'd have that if I settled for 'good enough' as well.

Ok, now I think we got off subject a little. What are you asking about being worth trying or not?

Yes, why have fun trying? What a waste of time!

Time you enjoyed 'wasting' was not wasted.

Tom - you contend:


You support it with


You also state:


We are telling you that your line of thinking - your setting of goals for your marriage at the lowest possible level with which you can conceive of attaining - is too low.

We're trying to tell you that it is possible to achieve:


You have to try to do it though. You have to work for it.

You seem to have given up hope that it is possible so you're not going to bother.

Those of us debating with you disagree. And we're trying to tell you how we've done and achieved (or hope to achieve) what you want.

And you keep telling us it isn't possible.

At least - that's my understanding of the discussion so far.

Tom,

4 years ago my wife was leaving me for another man.

Today, she and I teach MB principals to other couples and just attended training together so that we can do a better job of it. In our first class we taught on MB at our church, there were three other couples who used MB to save their marriages. One now might be helping us to teach others. THREE years ago, that wife filed for divorce because their marriage was a mess.

What MB offers is a box full of tools to use that can build a marriage that is every single thing you could ever dream up wanting in your marriage. It also teaches you how to USE those tools, which ones are for what job and how the finished product is supposed to look when it's being built. It also shows you that like owning a house, a marriage is never really finished. You have to keep working at it, just like you have to care for the lawn and bushes, keep the place clean and take out the trash.

Learning to avoid Love Busters is like taking out the trash. POJA takes away the clutter and gives you a way maintain your love for each other. PORH lets you see, just like cleaning the windows or keeping the lights working. It lets you see what is happening and what needs to take place to be in love with each other. The Policy of Undivided attention helps you schedule projects and lets you know that your love for each other will keep growing. And learning to identify and meet each other's emotional needs will be like remodeling the whole place every day of your lives so that it never becomes outdated or lacks for anything you need or want.

TRUST me, Tom. THIS stuff is what works. It saved my own marriage and those of a whole lot of other folks as well and made them BETTER than they ever were before with constant improvement every single day.

It all depends on learning to use the right tool for the job that needs to be done. A hammer can't cut a board or paint a wall and a paint brush will never be able to drive a nail no matter how hard you swing it. You don't have the marriage you want because you haven't been using the right tools to do what needs to happen at any given time. How's that been workin' for ya?

Think about it this way. If what we are saying here is true, then you absolutely CAN have the marriage of your wildest dreams. If what we say is not true, then the only thing you will have lost is a little time being miserable, which you already are and which still will be the same way it is right now. If you apply MB and nothing changes, you haven't lost a thing, you are right where you began.

But if this stuff really does work...

Mark

What types of things are you thinking of then? All of the examples that pop into my mind are ones that I was happy I finished/achieved something, not that I enjoyed while doing it.

Exactly. Perhaps high achieving people get there precisely because they DO enjoy the pursuit. While those of us who do NOT enjoy the pursuit don't get there precisely because the effort isn't worth the results.

Or to put it in MB terms, it is a massive DJ to suggest to someone else that they SHOULD have incredibly high standards in all areas of their life, and they should constantly strive to achieve those high standards. Each of us is entitled to decide for ourselves what standards we aspire to, and how hard we will work to achieve those standards.

Now, that doesn't mean our spouses have to agree with us. They don't. A large part of Mrs. Hold's marital unhappiness is that I have set my goals for career success far below where she wishes I set them. So far, she has not been able to brainstorm any circumstances under which I would be enthusiastic about setting my sights higher. It would be a SD on her part to simply demand that I do so, and a DJ to insist that I should.

I think MB can be incredibly helpful. I think everyone should try it. I encourage Tom to do so. Who knows, he might even succeed. But we all skirt DJ-land when we insist we know better than Tom what he OUGHT to want.

Tom, if you do MBs there will be lots and lots of achievements along the way. You will successfully negotiate issues, you will argue much less often or not at all, you will have more SF, etc. You never finish it. The achievement is having wonderful feelings toward your spouse and the same in reverse. Endless romantic love and happiness with your spouse sounds like one of the greatest achievements one could have to me.

I agree hold - however Tom has said that originally his standard was a romantic love - then he figured he couldn't get it and has settled for less.

I'm trying to show him that he CAN have what he wanted and dreamed of. I'm trying to explain to him that THIS is the way to do it. I'm trying to tell him that he is capable of achieving his initial desire.

He's seems pretty convinced that he can't and so he's settling for complacency.

If he were really ok with that, then why does he stick around? Why not go off and be happily complacent?

To be honest I'm about out of steam on this debate. What you want is here Tom, what you want you can have, there are those here who can help you get it - but you're the one that has to reach up and accept the rope being thrown you.

....Yeah, I think I'm done.

Hey Tom, just remember this. I am infamous around here for being eeyore. For always seeing the glass as half full. For always being pessimistic.

I have been here over 8 years. I am still as miserable as when I arrived. And I expect to be miserable for the rest of my life.

Are you sure you want to make the same choices I am making????

Now THAT is a sales pitch.

Vib- I understand your frustration, but the way you make it seem is that you could take any two people and have them work MB and they could create a loving marriage.

I am not against MB, after having read through pages and pages of information, I think a lot of it is good. I still have a hard time believing or viewing all of it as realistic.

Yes I have stuck around because I do want more, more happiness. I have stuck around because I want something better. I am still hesitant in areas, because some of the things here require risk, and I am not a risk taker.

I guess I also have a hard time with the romantic love aspect because I felt that was something I sacrificed going into this marriage. I was okay with doing that, but it is hard for me to see building that up, if it was never there.

LOL

Yup - that is my contention, and that has been my experience. If you don't want to believe it, fine.

But it has worked for apparently THOUSANDS of relationships. (Realistic or not, it works)

Why not take the risk? What do you have to lose? At worse your marriage remains as it is.

I heard this quote when I was still a teen - I have yet to have found any information to contradict it.

"Soul mates' are fiction and an illusion; and while every young man and young woman will seek with all diligence and prayerfulness to find a mate with whom life can be most compatible and beautiful, yet it is certain that almost any good man and any good woman can have happiness and a successful marriage if both are willing to pay the price."

The price, I've found, is applying MB.

This thread just makes me go ~~~>

A good, old fashioned, pile on of the MB kind.

Way to get attention Tom!

haha...my opinions just bring out the best in people, and yet somehow I am still suprised at some of the responses I get.

I have read this section over and over again by Vibrissa

"Soul mates' are fiction and an illusion; and while every young man and young woman will seek with all diligence and prayerfulness to find a mate with whom life can be most compatible and beautiful, yet it is certain that almost any good man and any good woman can have happiness and a successful marriage if both are willing to pay the price."

It just baffles my mind every time I read it. I can't even figure out a response that would do justice what it makes me think.

In all seriousness Tom, I do suggest you try implementing the MB system. I have seen remarkable success stories here over the years. I would not give in to your doubts until you try it.

Or to put it differently. I am mentally ill, and have been in therapy on and off for over 30 years. My wife was raped more than once, and never sought professional help to deal with the impact. The fact that we were unable to implement the MB system is not much of an argument against its effectiveness or success rate.

If you and your wife are basically mentally sound, and merely have the typical issues that arise from being 2 different individuals with different wants and needs, I see no reason that MB wouldn't work for you. Even if your wife will not get on board initially. We have seen many cases where a "one sided" use of MB gets things started on an upward path for both partners.

Listen to these good hearted people. They only want what is best for you. And they are probably right. Even if you are understandably skeptical.