Tell her that you had planned to do xyz, but you won't be able to if you all go to lunch. Bribe her, it always worked in my household.

Thanks TB, you make excellent points as usual.
I definitely can't see a good vibe emanating from my corner of the lunch table. And I do so much look forward to a peaceful Arbor Day every year, lol.

I'm going to try to get STBX ww to back out of it. If she won't, there might be an unforeseen emergency at casa del optimism.

I'll let you all know how it goes. This boundaries thing is tough (for a newbie like me).

opt

thanks kenmoore.
In the am, I'll be putting up a tent in stbx's yard for the girls to sleep in at night. That might be a good time to just explain where I'm at to ww and see if we can come to an agreement.

It would be a lot easier if she would just disappear (and reappear when I'm not around), but I've been hoping for that for some time and it hasn't come to fruition yet.

opt

Okay I have to write this post while it's fresh in my memory and I don't start editorializing in my mind about the conversation I had with stbxww.

First, she decided not to go to the lunch phase of the party - she suggested one of the dad's go; my good friend (who's wife is having an A). Don't know why, but that was good. But then she came out and started putting up the tent with the kids and I (girls are sleeping there for the party). I gave her a look and she figured out I was uncomfortable. I suggested we go inside and talk and I said this:

--"fourth of July (anniversary of d-day) was very difficult for me and made it seem like everything that happened last summer happened yesterday. So, I'm recovering, but since you are not in my life anymore, I have a much more objective perspective on the situation. And what I see now is a woman who had another man's baby, and then 8 years later began engaging in the same exact behavior. It disgusts me. Furthermore, for you to be acting like nothing ever happened is insulting to me. So, you are insulting me and you disgust me. I am not comfortable around you."

She started in with "well, you were joking around with me, so I thought everything was okay" [I have been trying to be cordial, but this is clearly a woman who takes one small social cue and runs to the next level - part of why were are where we are]. Typical blame shift behavior IMO, a pattern I see very clearly in hindsight. She tends to go on the attack and she'll be the first to admit it.

I went on to say that recovery from the emotional rape that she put me through comes in waves. I said some days are okay, some are not. Some weeks/months are okay, some are not. I said this is not a good week.

I said I am not interested in being her "friend." We are two people who are parents to the same kids. That's it.

Thats' when she started to cry and went upstairs. Her fantasy divorce is crumbling.


Maybe I was too harsh. I hate making someone cry. I hate the tension caused by these conversations.
But not saying anything wasn't working either. She was trying to get closer and closer. She was actually flirting with me yesterday, saying I had a "single glow" -what the he77 is that? She invited me to a family clam bake for tomorrow... I don't think so.
Ultimately, I won't bring up my kids to think there are no consequences to adultery. I won't let her glaze over the whole thing (a "huge embarassing mistake" she calls it), and get my cooperation in showing kids you can set a nuclear bomb off in the living room and then all be big friends once the dust settles.

Okay, so where did I go wrong? [be honest, as usual]

opt

I don't think you did. anything wrong, that is.

Emotional honesty is debilitating for an emotionally dishonest, self-deceiving wayward. But it is liberating for those they harmed and continue to harm by their lack of emotional intelligence.

You may have to have one of these conversations again, but I don't think it will take too many to get through to her.

Thanks Kayla,
I mitigated to some extent a few hours after the conversation. She called while we were at the mall to see when we would arrive home and I took the opportunity to say "I'm sorry I was so harsh....I have a lot on my mind." (She started to respond then stopped herself and said "okay")

Basically I feel that I undid some of the pain and I felt better about that. But the original message was still intact and that's what was important.

The birthday party was fine, I stood next to stbxww and sang Happy Birthday, hung around a little and went home. She had a few friends there for some drinks and the girls were running around. No tension really. I think it was important to D8 that we be there together for at least a portion.

I don't think she understands, or wants to understand my position. I don't care what she thinks about me. It is very liberating to be unattached emotionally from this woman. You make good points. The concepts of emotional dishonesty and emotional intelligence are very interesting and have given me a lot to think about. I believe she still holds on to the theory that the A was not the death knell of the M, but that we would have D'd anyway; that kind of emotional dishonesty is very convenient and comforting for a guilty wayward.

90 days until D is official for those of you keeping track at home.

~opt~

{{{{{Opt}}}}},

It's ABOUT DAYUM time you did this.......

Well done you!!!!!

You have shielded her from the reality of her actions long enough. This was lonnnnnngggggggg over due, my friend.


Pay very close attention to what I am about to say........

She was not blame-shifting one bit. She was relaying what YOUR past actions have said to her. I warned you about this and your conflicting messages you've been sending her. But this wasn't the typical blame-shifting. However, you finally set her straight. Don't turn back from this. Because with the above statement, maybe NOW she will finally get the message......

........quit that


Stay far away from her Opt...........{{{{{shuddder}}}}}}

You are still emotionally connected at this point...........continue on your path of personal healing......

Not

Thanks for your input (and hugs) as usual n2,
Your Boundaries book has helped me alot to see things way differently. And I'm only on chapter 3! You were so right, I have boundary issues (I suppose we all do to some extent). I can also see that I've allowed my son to develop some boundary issues (ugh); I always thought he was just a little "spoiled," but now I can see the damage that is being done, if I don't start teaching him right (which sure aint gonna come from the other parent). He has a tendency to ask 3 or 4 different ways until we (I) succumb and give him what he wants (maybe with some compromise). But that will come to a screeching halt. Thanks again for suggesting the book.

I wish I could agree with you here, but I think KA was more right:


See, I'm starting to realize that she might NOT get it, even with "harsh" in-your-face statements like that. It might take many more discussions. But I'll take one day at a time.


This is the difficult part since we have the kids. I even have to call her cell to talk to the kids alot. I have to drop them off and pick them up. It's hard to say "don't answer your phone, I don't want to hear your voice" and "don't come down stairs when I pick up the kids"

Also, (and here's where I get real confused) for me to make my point that I don't want to have contact with her (or want it to be minimal), I have to talk to her (haven't learned mental telepathy yet). So, I can't stay away from her and talk to her at the same time.


I just don't see it. I don't feel anymore connected to her than any other person. Fact is, I wouldn't want to be mean to anyone. I think she's really connected to me. And so cutting ties is hurting her - I just don't like hurting people. (........or is she just "connected" to the fantasy divorce concept????....hmmm).


opt

I think the only thing that still bothers me about the whole divorce is that she still seems to hold the theory that the Affair wasn't the cause of our demise, but that our demise was the cause of the affair. Of course we'll never know for sure because she never tried to explore the possibility of making the M better in the absence of OM (plural). And then, of course, I hopped on the D-train before the outside relationships stopped.

And it doesn't really bother me personally as much as it bothers me that my children are being brought up, 50% of the time, in a household where they might be taught that a) there was NO affair (it was something else - maybe a bologna sandwich), and b)we got divorced for any-other-reason-that-didn't-have-to-do-with-the-affair.

Well, I can't change the fact that I was brought up to have sketchy/vague/non-existant boundaries and therefore fell into a bad relationship. I just hope I can get it right (quickly) and then have some positive influence on the kids.

opt

Opt,

Count me in as one who thinks you are on the right track.

I agree about having to talk and interact with your STBXW. While you don't want the kids to grow up thinking that an affair isn't really an affair, or that adultery is OK, you also don't want them growing up where there is constant tension between you two.

I don't need to point you to all the literature proving the the most well-adjusted children in a divorce are ones where the parents can work together and get along well enough make critical parenting decisions together. One where parents facilitate a healthy relationship between the children and the other parent.

There is a difference between rolling over and making believe the affair didn't happen or it doesn't bother you anymore, or having enough self control and commitment to the children to interact with the XWW without open hostility. It's a fine line, but I think you're on you way to finding it.

Don't worry about which came first in her mind (the affair led to the bad marriage, or vice versa), you'll never be able to change it anyway. Everyone has their own perception of reality and we all know which ones are closer to the truth.

Opt,

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents worth as well,

You sound as if your describing my WW to a T

The whole fantasy D where we are still getting along as if nothing has happened and the reason we are D has nothing to do with her actions.

Then the Atheism excuse ....how convenient !!! You get to rewrite all the rules, my WW has been "enlightened" while I'm stuck in my small box, and can't see how great it would be to be an atheist in a open relationship.

I think I would tell your EX that you need space to recover from the trauma you have been thru and that in a year or two you might be able to have some degree of contact with her.

Eventually you will have to be at a level where you deal with her because of the kids. The sooner you can define that relationship's boundaries the better off you will be.

I'm off to Iowa Friday to ride my bike for the week with the whole family .... should be fun in spite of the current circumstances

Later, SC

Thanks SC and Schtoop (and Not and everyone),
I'm taking the kids north for the weekend so I won't be around, no computers up thar.

I just wanted to share some news before I left:
The Judgement of Divorce Nisi came from the court yesterday and states that the divorce is final 90 days from the court date. (someone screwed up - the judge had said 120).
Doesn't mean I'll be fully recovered and ready to move on on Sept 16th, but it's nice to have the option.

opt

Just returned from a great trip to NH with our neighbors - lots of really supportive married adults and kids and good clean family fun. I really enjoyed myself and am starting to adopt my role as a single parent.

I just wanted to thank everyone for beating me up a little when the court hearing was over and I was immediately ready to look for a date with some worthy she-lion. That would not have been a good idea, I can see that now. It would have clouded my head (a fog of sorts, I imagine) and kept me from the business of regaining my sense of self. And I have a looooooooong way to go, lol!

I may need you again on this front as I am weak as a kitten sometimes.

I dropped off the kids with nary a "hello" to (or from) the soon to be Ex wayward. The neutrality of it felt good. The funny part was my STBX MIL was upstairs and didn't come down to say "hi." She used to think I hung the moon. I lost all respect for her a few months ago when she told me "maybe you should give her what she wants" (meaning offer the D to WW at the time, I guess as some sort of an ultimatum). I felt like someone that cavalier about putting their own grandkids into two separate houses with single parents didn't deserve the title of Grandmother anymore.

Of course I would never breathe any of this to the kids; it's my thing. And they seem to be accepting the decrease in contact between me and stbxww, which has been interesting.

Optimism

Good to hear you are doing well. I just returned with ds10 from a Sunday afternoon with my parents and my brother and his wife and kids. My brother is on his 4th wife---so feels weird to be the 'single sibling' in the mix at this point in my life. My divorce has been final since end of November. I wish I had waited just a bit before I jumped into dating. I was way too vulnerable to make a rational choice about whom to allow in my life. I've ended it with him but it left me feeling very bruised and sad...so I hope you use my bad example to wait a while....and in your case your divorce isn't even final yet, so that helps to give you a better time line.

:)ing Woman, thanks so much for your insight.


Right, I have 52 days left. (that number just dropped from 82 since the court made a little boo-boo). I'm starting to see the importance of waiting until I really feel 'whole' (whenever that is...) before I let someone in my life. Stories like yours help me re-affirm what I understand and counteract my innate tendency to seek immediate gratification.

I also met a guy who is about 70 and divorced his wife when his kids were small. Never got re-married. I asked him if he dated and he vehemently said yes, lots of girlfriends. But he said his kids and his home became sacred in a way and the idea of bringing home a woman was "A line that just could never be crossed." I have no intention of hoarding girlfriends but the idea of staying single seems somehow more palatable now. At least for a good while.

Well, babbling again. Thanks SW.

opt

O, it sounds like you're doing great. It's kinda a kick when you have to make time to date because your life is so full. It's kind of cool because you come to a relationship from a place of strength, not weakness. That makes it a lot easier to assess the potential and cut loose anyone that isn't a good fit.

Plus, being single has its points. Complete control of the remote being one of them. I think Mike's last words to me were, "Give me the dang remote." We were having a disagreement over what station to watch for election returns. Good times.

Thanks Gg. I'm really looking for that place of strength. And yes, the single life definitely has advantages.

Another poster said "I was lonely IN my marriage." That describes me to some extent. Now I can be lonely and do what I want, when I want (like Fred told me some time ago).

O

OMG, you mean something I said actually made sense? I'd better get a check-up.

Only in hindsight, Fred. Only in hindsight!

Now, go see if that crush of yours wants to have a cup of coffee!

opt

........

Nicely done, Opt!!!!!

{{{{{{Opt}}}}}}

You'll do just fine my friend......just fine......

Not

Ps.......glad you're liking "Boundaries"........ ......next time, don't argue with me and just do it!!!!!!!