Quote:A vegitarian diet, with around 6 ounces or lean meat a day, (yes 6, a lumberjack can work with this much protien from meat), is the best way to maintain proper body weight and balance out wiehgt.

I�ll pretend like you�re kidding. But in case you�re not, you do realize that�s only around 33 grams of protein. That wouldn�t even match up to the RDA set by nutritionists and they�re notoriously low on what they believe protein requirements are. There�s no way I�m going to go and build any muscle at all by only consuming 40 grams of protein and under. And if I�m dieting to lose fat, I�m going to lose A LOT of muscle by only consuming that little protein.


You can get protien from veggies, its a myth that it has to come from meat. I wasn't saying that was the only protien in the meal. sorry if it seemed that way.

Originally Posted By: ConstantProcess
Ketone is a blood acid. and is NOT good for you. If you are incresing it in your body it is toxic.


http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/the-ketogenic-diet
You should order this book if you think that. This is a fantastic book...so much so I read it twice.



I will get it thanks

CP, there is so much wrong here that I don't even know where to start so I decided to start with your initial premise because when your initial premise is wrong, a wrong conclusion will follow.

The first thing wrong is that it is ATKINS that leads to blood sugar spikes. It does not: it ELIMINATES THEM. It is unhealthy high carb diets that lead to blood sugar spikes and excess insulin. In fact, Atkins CURES hypoglycemia and diabetes 11.

It is CARBOHYDRATES that lead to blood sugar sugar spikes, not protein and fat. When one eats carbohydrates, their blood sugar spikes, the pancreas releases insulin for the purpose of lowering the blood sugar, hence the blood sugar CRASH. Atkins avoids this by prescribing only HEALTHY carbs like low GI green veggies and berries.

You have a natural, healthy energy on Atkins because your body is not flooded with insulin and battling the brain fog that comes with tiredness that follows blood sugar roller coasters. Energy levels and mental acuity are greatly enhanced on ketogenic diets because blood sugar is level and steady.

Diabetes, for example is a disease of carbohydrate intolerace. Diabetics have so abused their bodies with carbohydrates that the pancreas no longer produces insulin, hence they become insulin injection dependent in order to control their blood sugar.



Again, you are confusing ketoacidosis with ketosis. Ketoacidosis is impossible in insulin producing humans. This is easily verified but uneducated people continue to repeat this nonsense.

Nor do "PH levels deteriorate," that is more nonsense.

m New York Times What if its All Been a Big Fat Lie?

Low blood sugar occurs on HIGH CARB diets, CP, not on Atkins. Atkins CURES low blood sugar and hypoglycemia because it regulates your blood sugar. I *HAD* low blood sugar and it was cured by Atkins. So you have this entirely backwards.

Think about your logic, CP. If blood sugar spikes come from excess glycogen and glycogen


This makes no sense, CP, because protein and fat are the LEAST LIKELY to cause blood sugar spikes. Only very excessive amounts of protein can do this through a process called gluconeogenesis. The same cannot be said for most carbohydrates. The smallest amount can cause a blood sugar spike which leads to excess insulin. Sorry but that is not healthy.

The healthiest diet, CP, is one that limits carbohydrates to the lowest GI fruits and vegetables, unprocessed meats, cheese, LOTS of eggs, nuts, full fat butter, natural yogurt.

Do yourself a favor, CP, and do some research. Check out the BIBLE on nutrition, Good Calories Bad Calories by Gary Taubes.

Quote:"Fat burns in the flame of carbohydrates" and a balanced diet with less calories but good calories is the best. . It will automaticaly reduce the fat and make lean muscle just because you cut out fat. The human body requires about as much linoylic acid,(fat), as can be foundin a large bow of oatmeal it make its own good colesterol. Extreme atheletes might need a little more, like equal to a pat of butter a day.

Fat is burned by the absence of carbs. I know that quote; I had to hear it in all my nutrition classes. But the truth is, you remove carbs, you burn fat. You consume carbs, it spares the fat.


If you balance what you need for energy with the correct intake of carbs,(i think this should put you in the fat burning ketosis state), then you will have both at a more balanced level.
Seems I was wrong about ketosis at modrate levels

It is not considered negative by those who have actually researched the subject. It is usually dieticians and GPs who say this in my experience. Endocrinologists and ketosis experts DON'T say this.

There is so much ignorance in the world of nutrition that it really takes a committment to study to find out the truth. I studied nutrition when a well meaning GP pushed me into full blow hypoglycemia with a dangerous low fat diet. Atkins, thankfully, reversed the damage done by the low fat diet and restored my healthy.

Quote:I think dietary control is the best way to lose weight. The atkins diet is like eating a rock an poisioning your bloodstream. Of couse you lose weight, your body doesn't have any glycogen and is forced to burn the fat stored along with the fat eaten.

What exactly is dietary control? Portion control? Food pyramid? I work on numbers�I have a BMR, I have a physique goal, this means I have X amount of protein, X amount of fats, and X amount of carbs. I have no idea what dietary control is. If you were to sit a plate in front of me full of food and tell me to utilize dietary control, I�d eat the protein, any non-starchy vegetables, and any berries that were on the plate. And bacon. I would definitely eat the bacon. Because bacon is in its own food category.

Dietary control? Counting calories, reading labels,premaking your meals for the week. getting you blood chemstry checked looking for abnomalitys, and making sure I ate foods that made up for them. Cooking without fat, no added salt or sugar. Reading what veggies contained protiens and what lean meat had the aino acids i needed.


Definatly need fish oil. defenitly, definatly...

CP, you do understand that burning fat is the point, right? FAT BURNING = GOOD, storing fat = BAD. Ketosis means you are burning fat and if you are not burning dietary fat and stored body bad, then you are FAT and have high triglycerides.

This is why the Atkins diet is so much healthier on your lipid profile than low fat diets. It outperformed the AMERICAN HEART ASSOCIATION low fat diet in studies.

CP, what you are saying here is that burning fat is "like eating a rock and poisoning your bloodstream." Do you truly believe it is unhealthy to lose weight when you are overweight because that is what you are saying. When a person loses weight, it has to either come from FAT or from MUSCLE or from body organs.

Which do you think is the healthiest way to lose weight?

I would have to vote for loss of body fat. I lost 45 pounds on Atkins in 1999 - not by counting calories or starving - and kept it off until 10 months ago when I became hypothyroid.

I could not lose weight on a low fat diet, though, and only wrecked my health. The body needs 50% of its calories from good animal fats in order to function properly. What should be limited for good health are carbohydrates.

Well I have to say I will get those books, but I don't agree with your therory about atkins. Sure I see that it will stop sugar spikes, but at the expense of proper nutrition from natural foods.


All I know is what I have experianced as a diabetic who has been insulin dependant for 23 years and has worked more intense labor jobs that most people. And what has worked for me. As a farm bred country boy who ate well most of his young life I will swear that veggies have more nutritional value than meat. unless you are stroring pemmican for the travel over the applachians.

But I will agree to disagree on this, especilly since i haven't done as much research or practiced what i preach as much as you do

CP, remember that there is no physiological NEED for carbohydrates. You could survive just fine on a 0 carb intake.

Escimos live on a diet high in fat, moderate in protien, and virtually no carbohydrates.

Carbs are not essential for survival.

What "proper nutrition", and from what "natural foods", does Atkins lack? Could you please give a few specific examples?

Atkins advocates eating low GI vegetables every single day. Do these "natural foods" not provide "proper nutrition"?

CP, do you have juvenile (Type I) diabetes or type II? That makes a difference too. There is truth to the idea that we can "make" ourselves type II diabetic through obesity, eating habits, etc. Type I diabetes is believed to be connected to the immune system, which attacks the eyelets of Langerhans, and there is no way someone can give themselves that type of diabetes or be cured by better eating. When DH was diagnosed in HS, his granny blamed herself for giving him candy when he came to visit her general store -- not true. Although it's amazing how many people still believe that.

Once we get moved, I am going to have to do something. I'll have to find a doctor/psychiatrist who is really up on the research about diets/meds/etc. I really think that my drastic diet and militant overexercising was part of what put me into a manic state four years ago, and I definitely don't want to go there again.

Luri-->
Some cool sites for you to start looking over in the meantime.

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/
http://robbwolf.com/
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/articles

CP, again, you are making assertions that are unfounded and based on a lack of research. Atkins is exclusively natural foods and is the most nutritious diet you can eat.

Vegetables are not healthy for you in excess, especially to a diabetic since they produce blood sugar spikes. What Atkins does is stick to low glycemic, non starchy vegetables, such as broccoli, spinach, certain squashes, kale, etc.

The diet you mentioned, which is very low protein and low fat is not healthy for anyone. The body needs most of its calories from good fats and proteins to maintain essential brain function and keep metabolism healthy and revved up. For example, when you reduce fat intake below 40% you are doing nothing more than signalling your body that it is in starvation. This slows down your metabolism and causes your body to store MORE FAT.

Please, please check into the book I recommended by Dr Bernstein. He dispels many of the popular myths put out by the American Diabetic Association and the nutrition community. I know hundreds of diabetics over the years on my low carb forum who have lost weight and maintained their weight loss while improving their blood sugar levels. They all were able to reduce their insulin instake.

Agree, Lou. I hope I didn't give the impression that a low carb diet CURES type 1, because it can't be cured, as we both know. But it does cure TYPE 11. The type 1's who are on the Atkins [or Bernstein] diet report weight loss, better blood sugar control and a drastic reduction in their insulin intake.

If I DID do Atkins, I would have to have a mourning period to grieve the loss of corn, carrots, pasta, ice cream, banana pudding...hmmmm....maybe there's a REASON my pants don't fit!

What do you think of South Beach? My mom likes it because she says it isn't as strict. Did I mention I really like corn....and ice cream???? I had a friend in college who used to put something she liked in her mouth that she liked, and then spit it out so she could have the taste without actually eating it. I don't think I'm that desperate. Blech.

What about that sweet potato casserole with the pecans and marshmallow fluff on top...that doesn't have carbs, does it?

Tee hee hee...I think my sugar is low. DH is funny when his sugar is low, sometimes. He likes to chase me around and pinch me on the butt and stuff....hmmm...may be I should keep his sugar low all the time

SB is politically correct Atkins, but it does work! BobPure had lost 30 pounds on it the last I checked.

yummmmmmmmmmmm to sweet taters! On Atkins you don't get the marshmallows, but you can bake them and slather REAL BUTTER on. You are making me hungry!!

I have to admit I didn"t know that atkins suggests those veggies, those are the healthy ones that I pick too, and came from the book I afore mentioned.

The idea about nutrition for me is you only put the amount of food in your body that you need and its food your body can use for how you work, play, or excersize. If you pick well,a specific diet designed for what your body needs based on what it lacks, as in a vitimen deficancy or your metobolic rate or any variable specific to your body, you can eat carbs for energy and not all carbs are evil.

I don't eat white bread or even wheat cuz believe it or not, wheat bread spikes up the sugar more that white. I do when I am following my diet eat whole grain bread with apple butter or no butter at all. You stil have to read the label on those because they contain sugar most of the time. I also eat small meals all day and keep it under 2000 calories. My endocardiologist has me count the carbs, so I use both, because I am so used to calorie measurement.

I mentioned how diet changed my life when I disciplined myself to follow it religiuosly for 3 months when I was 29. I have been type 1 insulin dependant since I was 27. At first I used the "Exchange" system soly as my diet model as I was taught this by the diabetic educator, but when I used a combo of counting calories with Robert Haas diet eliminating all fat, salt, simple sugars and other junk a new world opened for me. I had steady sugar levels, used less insulin, tons of energy and an active mind that didn"t run on adrenilin from coffee. I was a calmer person and thoght clearer and was able to drop the demon cigarrates easier also.

The telltale evidence that Hass diet was benificial to me was when I absolutly HAD to eat something from a BK drive thru one night when I was traveling late and there menu was limited at that hour. It was when they had a salad bar back in the 80s but I couldn't get it at that hour. So I ordered a whopper and ten minutes after I ate it I could literally feel the effect the greasy thing had made on me. It felt like someone had poored 90 weight oil in my head. My thinking was not as aware and clear, It was more evidence gleaned from experiance what happens when I eat fatty foods.

Of course you have to do it all to feel the benifets, as I am sure you have tailored atkins to your specific needs, I did with Haas. But in my case I was cutting out all fat, salt, sugar and stuff like peanut butter and whole milk. I went all the way with the diet and that is why it worked for me the way it did.

By the way, this is a fact that was stated in his book and maybe it explains a lot of issues with whole milk. He said the human body loses it ability to properly digest milk at age 6. This make sense because breast feeding usually is usually stopped by then. So the fat from milk products also is avoided as we drink the best sports drink around, Water. But you can allways use skim milk as a replacment for whole milk.

To follow my type of diet, which worked for many of the atheltes in the professfesion sports world in the 80s , you have to pick the right foods and vegetables and eat in small amounts all day. Also you have to increase your level of exercise to a point that your muscles are burning calories even in your sleep. I had no problem with excersize then as I ran and worked out before I went to work in construction and I have allways been an extremly active person, I was allways working on something, someones car or building an addition to a house.

The diet helped me have better energy and sugar control to handle the crazy shedule I had while making me more relaxed and mentally sharp at the same time,

Its hard to beleive that you can think and perform better without fighting the fog that attacks us from the food we eat. This is the kicker I noticed the most from the diet. When I eliminated all the fat he suggested along with using his recipes body fat was replaced by lean muscle very fast when I just did the same workouts and activity as I did before. I worked hard and counted out 2000 calories a day to eat. It worked for me but as I said, I followed the diet religously.

I accualy should not have attacked the Atkins diet without researching it first. You have brought up some very interesting points about it that I will take into consideration as I meal plan. The people who were on it that I knew talked also about it highly but did not tell me some of the details you told me. They just said the main thing was eat meat and cut out carbs. This went against my experience and maybe that why they lacked energy along with thier own failure to do it correctly. They also did not succeed in losing weight.

My belief that eating the right amount,(calories), of the correct foods, (broccoli as opposed to corn, light italian salad dressing as opposed to Blue cheese), and eating it at the proper times spread out though the day,(Breakfast like a King, Lunch like a Prince, and dinner like a Pauper) is the least of what you could call a fad diet. Of course you take from each of the different studies and diets what works for you.

I just know first hand what fats do to me, and the protien for muscle can be gotten from veggies if you look into it, I will get the book "Eat to Win" back from my daughter and give you some facts based on studies he has done. The bibliogrphy in his book is extentsive as I don't trust one persons opinion ever and insist it be backed up with fact. This guy is coming from the viewpoint that it is chemistry of the blood which holds the key to our general heatlh. I think we can all agree on that.

It should go without saying that everyone should get a screening to determine what deficiencys are present in there unigue phyisiolgy and take a multi vitimen every day along with Omega 3 fish oils, ( Haas was recomending Salmon as one of the meats for this reason way back in 83, he was also very detailed in good colesterol and bad).

What I have a problem with you will never convince me that more meat than complex carbs is good for your body. Maybe you can play with the chemistry to make it work, but to me its not natural. I am for cutting out to many carbs but in the case of getting energy they provide cleaner energy than meat and more quikly. You just don't eat more than you use at the times you use them. because then your sugar will spike.

As far as insulin use with a diabetic, there are fast acting insulins and long acting ones. Years ago I used the only two that were available, Regular insulin which peaked in your body in about two hours and last for four, and NPH insulin which peaked in 6 hours and lasted for 12. The food you eat also has times it delivers sugar to the bloodstream so I had to take insulin at the proper time and eat at the proper time to get them both to deliver the energy when I needed it,(used it), so i wouldn't have spikes up and down. As I said before, I cut down on insulin ussage with this diet and my peaks were well controlled. Of course the physical work changed daily so I would plan my calorie intake accordingly.

Now they have humilin insulin which peaks within 1/2 hour and you take it right before meals and Lantus insulin that lasts 24 hours. I have changed my insulin usage accordingly.

Of the two types of Diabetes there is type 1,insulin dependant or juvenile onset,(because it was noticed in children primarily as a disease) and type 2 diabetetes which comes from abusing thier pancrous with sugar spikes and to much rich food and can be avioded by controling your diet. Many people get type two because they have such poor eating habits most of there life and when they get older they still eat wrong an thier pancreous either fails or is not able to keep up with the habits they had when younger.

The word "diabetes" is from the greek. I think it means "The empty horn" or "sweet urine" They noticed that everything they ate passed though there body and they wasted away, I don't wnat to know how they figured out the urine was sweet, lol , but for those who do not know, diabetics who have poor sugar control have all the water in there body go into there bloodstream
to flush out the sugar through their urine, making them dehydrated and pee to much while overworking there kidneys.

Before 1905 there was no treatment for diabetes and people just died from it. Then they found a way to extract insulin from bovines and swine and that saved lives. But of course Doctors wanted thier patients to eat and gain weight so much it was an uncontrolled diet for awhile till more was known

It has become an epidemic in younger people as we allow them to eat at MCDs and watch TV to much, our children are overweight. Type 2 is starting to effect young people now. Its a shame.

There is a surgical nurse who worked out constantly and is the wife of Dr Amen, who talks about diet and the effect of foods we eat on our brain. He tells the story of his very healthy wife wanting to stop taking birth control, (I think its the hormone estrogen) at 35. Like I said she was the picture of health and from the cookbook she co-wrote with him seems to care about nutrition and has a handle on it.
Well she went to get her bloodwork done about two months after she stopped the birth control because she was acting a little more aggresive and mood swings were becoming uncomfortable. She was diagnosed with borderline type 1 diabetes. Why would this happen to a healthy woman who never had this problem? It was found that her testoerzone level was the culprit and it had increased after stopping birth control. She started taking a suppiment,( I can't remember what it was but i remember it wasn't estrogen) and it brought her testotrzone down and balanced her out.


Made me think, why did I become a diabetic at 27 anyway? I was allways active, didn't like sweet stuff, didn't party my health away like most younguns. Allways had good strength and weight control without even trying and could eat all I wanted without putting on weight, high metabolism. But yet I became an insulin dependant diabetic? AHAH! It happened two months after I met my late wife, and with the way she looked I probably went way up on my testostrezone. Well its a theory as a guy im comfortable with LOL. but back to the reason I brought this up..

There is so much information that we don't yet know about our bodies that relate to hormones. I have allways heard that insulin is one, but when I was reading about the creation of hormones and looking at the tree design where they come from in Dr Amens book, I didn't see it. It was interesting that hormones are created from fat. I dont remember if its LDL or HDL colesterol but there is one created allways first and the others are created form that one and they go down the line. If one is missing, the next one might not be made. I assume thier is a priorty involved with this involving the wisdom of what is more important according to how our bodies dictate but it is too involved to go into here anyways.

Mel. his information of hyperthyroidism might be something you can benifet from. I will get the book back from my therapist and share what he says with you. He prefers using natural means to treat patients in his practice as a phychiatrist and talks about many misdiganosed or poorly treated root problems and Hyperthyroid was one of them. As you probably know many doctors treat the symptoms and don't find out the root cause that can be so simple sometimes.


I really am enjoying the little convo on nutrition and will get those books and study more research on the subject. I suggest you guys get the books; "Eat to Win" by Robert Haas,(not the poet), which still is in print i think and you can find it on amazon and "Change your brain, Change your Body" by Doctor Daniel Amen". He talks about so many subjects in his book I know this easy read will be a wealth of info for the layman reguarding mental health and how nutrition is so important to our noggins.

No, indeed! Why would you argue that the Atkins method encourages poisoning the body when you actually don't know what it is about?

Who was trying to convince you of this? It appears to me that you are still making confident statements about Atkins without doing the basic reading about it!

Atkins does not say "eat meat". The main energy source is from protein and complex carbs. Protein, as you know, comes from red meat, but also chicken, fish, eggs and shellfish. This might mean that on a typical day, you have eggs for breakfast, a "Chef's salad and berries" for lunch (to quote Mel) and fish or chicken and salad leaves or low GI vegetables for dinner. Is there anything unhealthy about this, in your view?

CP, Its apparent to me that you haven't done a lot of research on this and don't understand the effect of various macronutrients on your blood sugar levels, and thusly your health. Your body reacts very differently to a gram of carbohydrate than it does a gram of fat. Every time you eat carbohydrates, your blood sugar spikes, [and then crashes, causing an energy crash] which triggers the need for an insulin injection to control your blood sugar. Not so with fat and protein. Fat and protein keep your blood sugar level.

Diabetics who are on Atkins [or Bernstein] are able to control their blood sugar, lose weight and reduce their insulin injections.

Diabetes is a disease of carbohydrate intolerance and it is alarming that you don't know this. I would implore you to do some more research. Get Dr Bernstein's Diabetes Solution. He has changed the lives of many diabetics with his diet.