First off, I want to thank everyone for having such an active forum, even if the reason for such is not a happy one. I read HNHN abt 2 mths ago and found the forum abt 2wks ago. I have been up VERY late many nights since reading through the various threads and posts. It has given me plenty of food for thought as to my behavior and my DH.

I would like your take on my situation, if possible, and I warn you that this post is lengthy. It is a bit different in that adultery is not a factor. DH and I are talking separation/divorce after almost 7 years of marriage. I do not want this and to some extent, he does not seem to want it either.

We have had a chaotic life the last 3 years. In 2007 my husband took a job in Spain. I stayed behind the first year. I am a teacher and a new school year was starting. We weren�t sure if this would pan out as a stable job and he wanted to check it out first. In summer 2008, I moved to Madrid to be with him. Spain was difficult for me. Although I am from south Texas, I am not fluent in Spanish and this is a MUST. English is not commonly spoken as in many other western European nation. My husband spoke it well since his company put him in intensive classes from day one. I was unable to get a work permit, although I was able to get �under the table� work as a private English language tutor. The hours were few and it was not steady work. Personally, I was very lonely and to large extent also just flat out bored. We did some traveling on the weekends, but since money was always an issue (we still had bills here in the US in the interim), that was not always feasible. In early 2009, DH was advised that he would likely be coming back to Texas in December. We talked about me returning home early, staying with my mom, and getting a job until he returned. I came back in April 2009. (This was my first mistake, I would later realize. I never should have left him again.) I was able to get a job teaching again for the 09-10 school year and we found out DH would be returning in Feb 2010 and would be in Dallas. I am in San Antonio. He came to visit in August, I went there for T-Day, and he came again for Xmas. In February, I went to see him after he moved back to the States for good. Up until early March, we had been talking and preparing for me to move to Dallas in June after the end of the school year. We have visited each other several times since February. In March he began telling me that he didn�t know if things would work, that we were too different and had nothing in common. After almost 9 years together, I was flabbergasted. After much talk and discussion, it appears that he has found the single life quite exciting in Dallas and I get in the way of that. On the other hand, he continues to call me every day and we talk as if there is nothing wrong. While we do have the same take on issues/values, etc, he is very much a social person. I think that since he has been alone, he started going out to ease the loneliness. Now he makes it out to be an integral part of who he is. I am not averse to going out, but I don�t see the point in barhopping from 8pm until closing time every weekend. We discussed trying to compromise, but in the end I really get the feeling from him that he just doesn�t want to. He believes that I will be more willing to do activities for while, but then will fall back into my regular state. In his view, I never want to do anything and I always want to stay home. I don�t believe this is the case at all, and I pointed out that yes, if the choice was bars every Fri/Sat or home, then yes, I would choose home. But I DO like to go out and do things. Go to a movie, or dinner, or check out attractions, etc. I am fine with going to bar for 2-3 hours though. He seems to really not like the idea of having to compromise.

Part of me is very angry because I feel like the last few years of our marriage has been about his goals and dreams and I do get resentful because I feel like, when is it my turn? When do we work towards one of my goals? I will be 37 in a few months, he is now 30. I really want to have a child and buy a house and settle down a bit. He says he wants kids, but not now, there is still too much he wants to do. He has also made the comment that he doesn�t know if he wants the pressure of a marriage any longer, but he is also afraid to lose me. He has told me that sometimes he thinks we should just split up, but he can�t do it because something inside him keeps stopping him from saying the words. He is very confused about everything.

I have snooped and snooped during my visits to Dallas and could not find any evidence of another woman. I have read HNHN, and I can easily see that his top 3 needs are SF, RC, and AS, with Conversation as a 4th. I am trying to do what I can to fulfill those and I am committed to making changes where needed. The thing is he has some changes he needs to do too and he just doesn�t seem to really want to make any. I have tried to be patient. I have made an effort when I see him or talk to him to NOT LB and instead make deposits, to show him all the ways that we DO work as a couple. We have fun together, our sex life is still great, we have so many shared memories, our morals are in line, etc. I have twice brought up divorce when he seems to not want to make a decision and each time he got very emotional and said, whoa, let�s just calm down a minute and think about things. Trying to a have honest discussion only works for a few minutes because then he gets angry. I think it is because he feels bad, but I lay off when he gets like this as it only makes WD�s.

I want my marriage to work. I love this man and believe that we can get through it, but that there will have to be some give and take on both sides. I am confused as to what I should do. We decided that I shouldn�t move to Dallas because he is worried that 6 months from now he will feel the same and neither of us wants me to lose my job if we don�t see it working. OTH, I would quit and move in a heartbeat if he just said to me, �I KNOW we can find a way as long as we are together.� How am I supposed to show him how good things are when we are not even living in the same city? Every weekend he is going out to bars with his single coworkers and I am dying inside knowing it is only a matter of time before he meets someone and either has a ONS or starts an A. I have tried to remain there to support his EN for conversation, but I also feel like it is cake-eating to some extent for him. He has me and since I am not physically there, he still gets to go party on the weekends. He really doesn�t see anything wrong with him going out all the time and I have tried to tell him that NO marriage can stand up to a man barhopping with his single friends every weekend.

This is one huge jumble and I apologize. This post is long, but I wanted to give some background as I though it would be pertinent. I guess the end question is what MB principle can I apply when the other spouse just seems to want the single life again, but at the same time still seems to want me? I believe he still loves me, although he told me he didn�t know if he still did. Maybe I am grasping because I want to believe it and it is really the pattern and routine of our relationship that makes it hard for him to let go. I have been divorced once already and I don�t want another failed marriage. First hubby and I never argued about anything and I thought we were happy. He just came to me with divorce papers one day and said he wasn�t happy and he didn�t love me anymore. He didn�t want to work on it, period. He walked away without looking back. Hubby #2 seems unable to do that, so I guess that is why I still have hope. The weird thing is that Hubby 1 told me that I didn�t change. I was the same person he married, but that he changed. DH now has also made a similar comment. There is so much more, but I will shut up for now. Any ideas?

As a side, I have not been able to get him to read any of the books although I have discussed it with him. I have appealed to his best friend to talk to him, but he and his wife, who is a good friend of mine, both seem to think that we would be better off apart. I did get him to see an IC and he has gone 3 times. IC seems to think it is pointless for me to move up there, too, and thought that us separating was a good idea. When DH told me this, my thought was, WTH kind of counselor is this??? I thought the goal of an MC is to try to KEEP people married! IDK, maybe what DH is saying to him just makes him think there is no hope.

Sorry you're here IM. But I'm really glad you found MB. As you read more you'll learn so much about yourself, your current marriage and maybe some things about your previous marriage. As you apply these principles to your life you'll feel stronger and more equipped have a better life.


Personally, I think you're right, he is cake-eating. He has his "lifestyle" on the side and is basically having an affair with it (this is assuming he's not banging someone real covertly, which is entirely likely.) I should know, I was a cake eater for a long time until I finally went PA with a co-worker. During that time I was very "devoted" at home, but it was all a facade designed to make it so I could still go out with some single friends at least once in a while; I was in love with the simple possibility of meeting someone who would at least make the evening extra 'special' (makes me want to puke now, but I digress).

Invincible. A basic tenant of MB is that a marriage only can be good if a couple is spending >15 hours/week together. UNdistracted time together (not watching t.v. or reading in separate rooms). You have not done this apparently in 3 years.

~optimism

O, thanks for your reply. UA time has been difficult due to our distance apart. The first year he was gone, t was 9 months of not living together and we did the best we could. He left in Oct 07, came home for a week in Nov, Dec, and in Feb '08. March I went to see him and then at the end of June '08 I moved there. Since my return to the US in April 09, he came here in Aug, I went there in Nov, he came here in Dec, and then moved back for good (to Dallas) in Feb. Since then, we have still made the trip up or down to see each other at least twice a month. I realize that the separation was hurting us and that is why I was so looking forward to us finally just being together again. In the beginning of all of this mess, he just used to tell me that "you just need to be here with me". Yes, I get (now) that this was a cry for help. I didn't realize how vulnerable our marriage was to splitting and, frankly, even he has admitted, he did not make this clear. We both were aware it would be 3 months before I could move, so that is why we did frequent visits.

But this is my whole point in posting. What MB methods can I try to use if we are separated by distance (and now by thought as to status of our marriage)? I considered going there for the summer since I am out of school, but he seemed reluctant to have me there. He didn't say no, he just stated he didn't know what I woud do every day while he was at work. He has almost no furniture since we had anticpiated me moving up there and I have everything here with me. Maybe there is an OW, or at the very least the possibility of one, and I haven't discovered it yet. My take on this has been that I will be in the way of him going out all he time. I asked him if he has discussed this aspect (the bars) with the IC and he said he has not

I GET that UA is extremely important. I would really like some recommendations on how to handle the situation when the other spouse seems uncertain about wanting to stay married, but at the same time, seems to unwilling to break ties. Or what to do when the spouse is in a different city. So often I feel like I am holding on to someone who doesn't want to be held onto. We have not had an MB marriage, obviously, but I do think we had attributes that could make a very strong, GREAT marriage if we are only willing to make the effort to improve it. I know I am 100%. How can I get him in the same boat?

If I were you I would go to Dallas for the summer. I don't know how else you will be able to really do much toward trying to save your marriage when you're living in separate cities and only seeing each other twice a month.

See for yourself what's going on, because right now you only know the parts that he is telling you. I would want to find out once and for all if there is hope for your marriage, and also I would investigate like crazy to see how much of a bachelor lifestyle he's really been living (read up on snooping here).

If he's against you, his wife, coming to stay with him then I think you know you have a major problem.

Sid, I keeep thinking this is the best thing, too. The timing is so difficult, too. I was supposed to have told my school district if I was not returning by mid-June and I will be receiving notice any day for a renewal on my apartment lease. He has been aware of all of these deadlines and kept putting off making a decision on whether he wanted to try to make a go of this marriage. I am NOT saying that the job or the apt is more important than saving the marriage, just that if I can't get a hard answer from him to try together, I have to protect myself and know I will still have a job to return to. Teaching jobs are exceedingly difficult to find here (I teach secondary history) and I was lucky to land this only because I previously worked with the principal before moving to Spain and a teacher decided to retire at the last minute last summer. He is out of the country visiting his family until next week, so I will discuss when I next talk to him.

Thanks for your take.

IM, I encourage you to go to the newsletters section of the forum, and read the When to Call It Quits articles. It talks about how to use Plan A/Plan B to give it a last good go with a spouse who is unwilling to meet your needs.

I see you're 37, I'm 36. My friends my age have mostly been going through IVF to get pregnant, a difficult process. One is pregnant "the natural way." Let me ask you, if you were to throw in the towel, with him, and by the time you found Mr. Right and settled down, it was too late, would you regret being childless? Is that a risk you are willing to take?

I think it's different for everyone. I don't know if this is ethical to do, but I wonder if it was me, I think I would want to move there for the summer, give it a one month Plan A, and if my marriage still failed, at least I would have the best chance of having a child from this marriage, to raise on my own. Not saying that it's a great thing for a child to have one parent who is so out-of-control with their lifestyle issues that they would want to risk losing their marriage for it. That part may well be awful to the child. Lots to consider. And even at 37, if you started over in the next few years, there are these technologies to have children.

Sid's right. You have to get into the same boat. Right now you're not even in the same ocean.


I know how you feel not having an MB marriage; even though I lived with my STBxWW, the amount of UA time was minimal at best. Sometimes I wonder if it was 15 minutes/week, let alone 15 hours. It all seems so logical that without a minimum of time together, you will grow apart; but while it's happening (and without anyone telling you you're doing it wrong) you have no idea. You become 2 different people and you fall out of love; the opposite of what happens when you're dating/courting and you're spending every waking moment together or at least talking about what you did when you weren't together. Understand Invincible? You're out of love because there's no way for the romantic threshold of your LB$ to be broken.

No kids?
Have you considered letting him go?

~O~

IM, they say it's hereditary, being able to have kids in the late 30s early 40s. What's the pattern for your family, have they been able to have children later in life? Or am I barking up the wrong tree, and this isn't something weighing on your mind?

Everything that he is saying and doing sounds like it is straight from the wayward spouse handbook. If you want to save the marriage, be with you husband. You can get another job. You can get another apartment. You cannot save a broken marriage from a distance. You cannot meet his needs from another city. He is very likely having an affair. He has complete freedom to be leading a double life because you are not around. He is going to bars regularly. Happily married men do not do this. They know better. He is searching to have his needs met. He doesn't want the pressure of being married because he is not acting married. He was very young when you met him. He probably is using that as an excuse to revisit bachelor days.

If you find out that he has been unfaithful, do you still want to remain married? Are you willing to try to recover the marriage? Plan A? Plan B if he won't start acting married? You need the truth in order to decide how to proceed. If it were me, I would not discuss it with him first. I would surprise him and just show up. Find out what he is doing. I would snoop like crazy. Not for a weekend either. He's not stupid. He's not going to leave signs around the house when you're there. I would show up on a Friday or Saturday night - late. But, be prepared. It may be a horrible shock.

If you want to save your marriage, you have to live with him.
If you don't, you will lose your marriage for sure. If you do, you have a chance.

NED: The lack of kids is not beating on me too much yet, but it is starting to. We discussed children before we married and I told him I understood neither of us were ready-we both wanted to finish school, etc--but that I wanted to know that by the time I was 32 or 33 we were seriously talking about it. When the time came, he just told me repeatedly he was not ready. Even now he says he doesn't even recall us discussing it. He just has too much he still wants to do and kids are a responsibility he doesn't want now. He even commented that once we have kids our lives are over. Explaining that yes, it CHANGES, but it is not OVER, just falls on deaf ears. As far as late births, my grandmother was 42 when she had my mom, but she already had 7 before her (my mom is Taiwanese--large families!). My doc is concerned because of my age, I have HBP, I have had some cervical issues. I am already high-risk as it is. A friend asked me if I was willing to give up chidren to stay with him. I told her that if it was a choice of having no children and being divorced, or marriage and no kids, then I would rather have marriage. She thought I was nuts.

Opt: I have considered letting him go, but the thought vanishes pretty quickly. I love him. Period. And if we can work this out, I want to. Lack of children doesn't make a marriage commitment more fluid, IMO. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that it makes it fluid for him.

SS2: As far as adultery, I don't know what I would want if I found this out. Hard to move up there if he seems to not want me to. OTH, he is always very excited for me to come up there for visits. You don't know how many times I have thought about just driving up there on a Friday night to see what was going on. I have had daydreams and scenarios of this, that, and whatever. I am really leaning towards doing this.
He was young when we married, and I worried about that also. He reassured me about this before. Honestly, he had done A LOT of partying before that.
I understand this is not married behavior to be out ever weekend. His response? "What do you expect me to do? Sit at home every Fri/Sat night?" --uhh, no, but you don't need to be barhopping every Fri/Sat night either... All of this just sucks so bad because I would have been there living with him by the 1st week of June if none of this was brought up. If these were issues, I could have then done something. I am so afraid to quit and move everything because I get NOTHING from him CONCRETE to say to me that he actually wants the marriage.

I BELIEVE he loves me. I believe that right now he is in some weird fantasy and he sees all his single friends without any cares, and I think he finds that attractive. I have told him that the reason WHY they go out is BECAUSE they are looking for someone. My biggest fear is that we will split up and 6 months from now he will realize how foolish this was and what he threw away. I am afraid that by then I will have moved on or I will simply not want to give him the chance to break my heart again.

BTW, I emailed a mod a couple of days ago to see about moving my thread because it seemed more appropriate to be in the MB101 forum.

One thing I've learned in my relatively short time here is that you can't control other people (or their feelings, or their actions or anything else). Not even your own spouse. So, this statement really jumps out at me as backwards. Since I'm just learning these concepts myself, I'm sure I won't illustrate the idea justly, but I'll try: You can't go through life being afraid for someone else and the choices they make in their own life; especially in response or reaction to anything you do (as long as it's a fair and reasonable action). This thinking is holding You from becoming the best IM possible. That's not fair to you. KWIM? [maybe someone can help me out here....]

When my STBXww was real foggy, she used to tell me I was more in love with the idea of being married than I was with her. I'm afraid she wasn't that far off. I also am starting to come to terms with the concept that I was more in love with a Mrs. Opt that I had idealized in my head, one that would never really come to fruition (and probably never will). These are tough concepts to grasp. Since you haven't spent a lot of UA time with your husband, I wonder if you have a touch of that syndrome? [sorry if that's not clear, I'm doing my best]

Lack of children makes it easier to walk away from a non-committed marriage. I think I know what you mean by "fluid," however, you're either married or you're not. You're either committed or you're not. My stbxWW wanted "fluidity." Translation for her: she wanted to hang out with various men when I wasn't around, and sometimes when I was.

Your husband is WAYWARD. He has mentally and emotionally left the marriage. He is not committed to the marriage. And since he's having so much fun, he ain't gonna walk away from the lifestyle any time soon, and most certainly not on his own. If there's an OW, multiply that by 10.

~opt

"Your husband is WAYWARD. He has mentally and emotionally left the marriage. He is not committed to the marriage. And since he's having so much fun, he ain't gonna walk away from the lifestyle any time soon, and most certainly not on his own. If there's an OW, multiply that by 10." ~opt

This is one of those statements that I have told myself over and over (hence, my reluctance to pick up and move). Yet, somehow reading it from you just suddenly seems to make it so clear. I am torn about moving to try to save the marriage and having this fail and I am left with nothing (his life, after all, will not change. He will still have a job and place to live--I will be coming home to my mom with my tail tucked between my legs--again). And honestly, I feel like it will fail. You can't force someone to love you or want to be with you. It's a risk I think I am almost too afraid to take at this point.

He agreed to go to a marriage retreat with me in a couple of weeks, then balked when he realized there would be followup sessions. This is Catholic-based and he said he thought they would try to convert us or make us feel guilty. (Neither of us are religious. He grew up Romanian Orthodox and I know that it is closely related to Catholicism, so maybe he was more worried about the guilt aspect.) I think this was my first big sign that he really didn't want to do any work to save the marriage. (Actually, there were several signs before this, but this one was in full neon blinking lights.)

A pertinent question by SS2.
A good well planned recon mission could give you the information you need. And you wouldn't have to give up your job for it.

But you really have to be able to answer that question first. If you feel it's a marriage worth saving, and he's got a girlfriend, you'll have a TON of work to do, my friend. It could be years.

I had the same demoralizing choice: stay and make chicken salad out of beaks and claws, or walk away and take time to rebuild myself in hopes of someday getting into a real relationship instead of a fake marriage.

Again, not easy to come to terms with this stuff, IM. (((hugs)))

~opt

I have thought about this--the whole "accidental" pregnancy-thing. I have been off of BC since last year when I returned from Spain (doc was happy since it lowered my BP considerably). H is VERY conscientious about protection, though, so unless I went the "needle-poke" route, not sure how this would happen. I have talked about sperm donation with friends and I get choked up talking about it. Obviously, the ideal scenario is to have a parenting partnership. It would be one thing for me to be a single parent due to circumstance and another to consciously set out to be a single parent. I want to be a mom so bad, but not sure if I want enough to do it alone.


A pertinent question by SS2.~opt Not sure how to answer this one. If he were willing to try to recover the marriage, then I think yes.

OK, I am still getting the hang of the whole "quote" thing--particularly when there are multiple quotes I am responding to, so bear with me!

Allow me for a moment to just talk out loud. I called up a good friend of mine to discuss. Been friends since HS, we even graduated from college together (at the ripe old age of 30!) She has been a wonderful sounding board for me. She is a BS who divorced the WH. It was the best choice since XWH was also verbally/emotionally abusive, but I digress...

I was driving home today when I started thinking about this whole idea of surprising him to Dallas to try to find out if there is indeed OW or what/who he is with on nights he is out. I was so consumed with this thought (yes, I was still paying attention to driving, tho), that I hands were numb from gripping the steering wheel. I just don't know how I would take it if this was the reality. I am normally a calm person, but for some reason, my imagination--a full-blown, HD-color, Oscar-worthy scene--showed me truly flipping out in complete emotional breakdown mode, throwing things, screaming so loud my voice was shrill, etc. I got home and texted her to call me when she could just to calm me down. I asked her to tell me what happened when she found out about OW 7 years ago. She didn't go ballistic when she found out, but she described perfectly what I envisioned. She couldn't recall actually feeling her body, just her heart beating so fast and the adrenaline rush from all the anger and betrayal.

This forum has been an AMAZING tool in helping me learn and grow, but sometimes I wonder if it is messing with my head--like suddenly now every action/word from H has some hidden meaning/motive, and I am LOOKING for something more than what is really there. Does that make any sense or am I being naive and gullible (be honest, bring on the bats--lol, I know you guys will). Hopefully I have not offended anyone with that statement. I do look towards the input everyone offers to me as a guide, even if I ultimately choose to follow only bits and pieces. Any thoughts on this?

When my STBXww was real foggy, she used to tell me I was more in love with the idea of being married than I was with her. I'm afraid she wasn't that far off. I also am starting to come to terms with the concept that I was more in love with a Mrs. Opt that I had idealized in my head, one that would never really come to fruition (and probably never will). These are tough concepts to grasp. Since you haven't spent a lot of UA time with your husband, I wonder if you have a touch of that syndrome? [sorry if that's not clear, I'm doing my best] ~opt

I do understand what you are saying in your entire response. On this area, specifically, I have done some thinking. I actually posed this thought to him when he vacillated between telling me he does still love me, or he doesn't know if he still loves, that maybe he loved the idea of me. The areas in which I am lacking (mainly RC from what he says) are areas that he really never told me bothered him until recently when he dropped all this on me. When I asked him why he would think I would be different, I never gave the impression before we married that I was the type to go hiking, mtn-climbing, etc, his reply was "I thought you'd change". I don't get that! If anything he is now showing me someone different from who I fell in love with. In responding to you asking me, I guess it is a yes and no. I am in love with who he was for roughly 7-8 years out of our almost 9 together--or at the very least, this is what he showed to me. Does that make sense? In many ways he is still the same man I love, but in several, very distinctive, very crucial ways, he seems to have changed--or maybe his true colors are finally showing.

I know a couple of people have commented on the lack of UA. Again, for obvious reasons, due to work, that has been an issue. While it has been sporadic, it has not been completely absent. Especially in Spain the 1st 9 mths and then the last 9 mths, we talked, if not every day, then every other. Neither of us worried about cost. We did a lot of video chats, etc, and there were fairly frequent visits. Since he got to Dallas, we have talked every day, several times a day, and of course the visits 1-2x's a month. No, I know that none of this was the ideal scenario, but it was what we were working with until I could move up there. Which brings me to the thought I posed to my HS friend earlier today: why is is that some peope can hack the distance and some just can't? It sucks and I hated our separation, but I just kept holding out for the summer until I could move up there to be with him and now we have this going on. I just want to shake him and say, "I know you were lonely, but dammit, we got thru Spain, couldn't you just make it for 3 more months until June???? I was lonely, too, but I am not running around to bars, or willing to just throw in the towel on our marriage!" The crazy thing is we saw/spoke to each WAY more often since his return in February then we did while he was gone. Maybe it was easier for him in Europe because he needed that emotional support of having me while he was in a different country and now that he is back in more familiar surroundings, he doesn't need that anymore so he is finidng it easier to break free.

I don't know....I am just rambling and thinking out loud at this point...