And I agree with Markos

Ok, again I agree that we would have to agree on how to raise the kids. I agree that the wifes opinions are more important than that of the children.
I am not disagreeing here with you Vib.

What do you feel about this sentiment:

I honestly don't know that I can do that. Regardless of who I am ever married to; my wife or even if it was someone else.
I have never thought that way.

I'm not talking about thoughts and feelings so much as actions.

For example, you and I both agree a mother and father should make it a priority to spend some time alone each week without their children.

That's one example of the type of actions I'm talking about.

I'm talking about all the actions that would be implied by the 10 basic concepts here. Those actions might be different in particular marriages; and I'm talking about making sure those actions are a priority over the kids.

For example, making sure to spend 15 hours a week giving each other undivided attention and meeting intimate emotional needs. Even if it means the kids don't get quite as much quality time with their parents this week. The idea being that if time is really short this week and something has to give, what gives first is the kids, not the marriage, because the kids depend on the marriage.

Another example (I'm borrowing from a recent post here, somewhere) would be that a child wants to go to summer camp, and father agrees, but mother does not. Putting the marriage first would involve the father agreeing to not force the issue and force the mother to do something she is reluctant about, rather than insisting it be done "for the kids" as many people would do. Fortunately it would also involve looking for an acceptable alternative, one which would make both mother and father happy.

Say, Tom, you might get a lot out of reading His Needs, Her Needs, For Parents. I've always said it's one of the best books Dr. Harley offers.

Okay, how about this, then: Who is more important than your wife? If your wife and Person X were drowning and you could only save one and the one you saved was Person X, who would that be?

Tom, I think you're saying that you could NEVER let a woman be the most important person in your life because women are heartbreakers, and you will not be hurt again.

You're afraid to let your wife be the most important person to you, because what if she leaves you? amiright?

My sibling. And when I eventually have kids, them.

Here's the thing Tom...you are exploring Marriage Builders, you are attempting to apply the principals, you are spending more UA time with your wife and you haven't been talking to your female friend. You are on the right track. You don't have to believe everything right now, or ever. You don't have to change everything you think is right. Baby steps. I do suggest you read the books (Love Busters and His Needs, Her Needs) eventually too. I think as you see improvement in your marriage you may buy into stuff you don't buy into now. I think a lot of people think like you do. A lot of the people posting on this board have applied all the principals and seen the amazing effect. Maybe they forget how they felt before they tried it? I don't know. Nothing MB asks you to do will hurt your marriage, so it doesn't hurt to try. If it seems like too much to apply Radical Honesty at this point just do it in baby steps. When a little honesty goes okay and you prove to yourself that you can tell your W your feelings without LBs and being hurtful, you will start to feel comfortable being more and more honest.

You could say, after some relaxing time having fun hanging out with her: "you know, I've been really stressed about money...I really don't want to sell my truck, I think it's a really good vehicle for our family and I like it a lot...I don't really want to get a second job either...but I feel like the two of us aren't bringing in enough money to cover our bills and it is really weighing on me" and just see what she says. It's totally honest. You are stressed about money and don't want to sell your truck or bring in more money yourself. Both those things are perfectly reasonable and not unkind at all. Radical Honesty does not HAVE to mean saying: "I'm really frustrated with you because you haven't gotten a full time job and I really felt like that was the deal, and I am unhappy with our marriage because of it and the longer you go without a job the more I am dissatisfied with you". I don't know, some people here might advocate that. Maybe you will get to a point in your marriage when you can say that. But it doesn't have to start out that way. And if the first approach solves the problem....great! Now, if she doesn't respond at all or just shrugs her shoulders you might have to think about expressing the fact that it is making you frustrated with her and your marriage. Then, she might throw back something that she is frustrated with YOU about. That gives you a chance to say: "I didn't realize that you were feeling that way about X, I will really try to work on that" and don't let the argument escalate. Work on that thing she threw out. See if she works on getting a job or comes up with a plan. Baby steps. Get more confident that MB works.

You don't have to take baby steps in eliminating Love Busters, though! And you don't have to resume your relationship with your female friend. Just be kind and polite when you talk to her and don't be alone with her. You do not have to defend your relationship with that woman to us. Just try conducting yourself the MB way and see how it works out. When you feel the urge to discuss a marriage issue with her, come here instead. Baby steps. You don't have to believe everything to start implementing. If you avoid love busters, and put a hold on your relationships with female friends, and focus on spending quality time with your wife you will improve your marriage. Keep reading here and let it sink in.

Like with the fast food thing...ask her. Say "hey if I want to grab fast food on my way home, do you want me to ask you if you want anything? You told me that you don't want to eat that stuff and I was thinking it might be nice if you didn't have to think about it or see me eat it...is that the right thing to do?" And just see what she says. Don't DJ her if she says, "no, I want to know so I can have you bring me something too!" Just accept it. At some point, as you gain confidence in your skills you can talk to her about how you feel about her weight/health, if that is still an issue for you.

I can see the kids...I would probably be mad if one of my kids died because H was busy saving me. I thought about that after I hit submit.

Bad analogy.

Does you wife know that your sibling comes first?

No, I am not afraid of the idea of her hurting me by leaving me. Honestly, if she eventually felt that leaving me was what would make her happiest in life, then I would be okay with that. I want her to be happy. At this point in her life, that is not what she wants, she is extremely happy being married to me. And I am glad she is. I would hope that if that were the case I would have someone else in my life that I could find or be with.

But that is all just hypothetical, yes I have thought about the hypothetical, because I do that. I have thought about many hypotheitcals in life that are relationship and many many others that are not relationship related.

Ask this question again a few months after he has been doing MB. Before I started MB it would have been anyone I loved over my H. The whole point of MB is to create a marriage where you feel passionately in love with your spouse. It is okay that right now he would save his sibling first. He doesn't have to know how he would feel after MB. You are putting the cart before the horse. He can't imagine feeling that way about his wife. That is OKAY. He can feel that way if they both eventually start applying all the MB principals. He doesn't yet, and doesn't have confidence that he ever will. But that doesn't mean he WONT.

Actually, I think she does. She knows how much I love my sibling.

How about you ask her? And see what she feels when you tell her that's the case?


As an aside - Tom, you infuriate and exasperate me on an almost hourly basis. Sometimes it's like bashing my head against a wall, and I've contemplated whether you're for real or not. But you have spurred on some really good conversations here and have helped me understand my own position on many topics as I'm forced to put them into words to communicate with you.

Reading through my comments I probably come off as a huge B - and I am but I'm also kinda nice sometimes .

So I'm just saying it's nice you're here, I hope you stay here and learn how to make your marriage better.

Vibrissa, I am glad you can admit some of those things. I could repeat some of those same infuriating and exasperating feelings, but I have pushed on.
Yes, I came here to complain about my wife and get advice on how to talk to her. I have stayed because I found people with a lot of advice to give (buying into some of it, not all yet) and I have actually learned a few things.

I don't make comments to intentionally upset others, just trying to get my perspective across. I can assure you that I am real (as well as my story), though it might be much easier if it weren't.

Yes I have taken some of what you have said as being a real B, but other times you come off as simply trying to help. I wouldn't expect anything less.

Now, I am going to get ready to have an enjoyable trip around town for some food, a movie, and who knows what else with my wife for the day.

I'll check back in later tonight.

This is WONDERFUL! Have a GREAT time!

So your lovebank balance for your sibling is higher than for your wife. Thats really kind of sad. Its not your sibling who you will have to support through pregnancy and childbirth. Through breastfeeding, and nighttime parenting when you are both so exhausted you can't speak in sentences that make any sense. Its not your sibling who will share your hopes and dreams for your children.

I totally agree with the poster above who said that having a romantic really fulfilling intimate marriage will definitely make your wife a better parent and yourself too.

Honestly, teacher or not, you have no idea what that baby is going to do to your world. I was a fulltime Live-in nanny for a family for 1year and then a live out nanny to 3 other families over the next 6 years before I had my first baby.

Oh my goodness. I couldn't believe what a shock to my body the pregnancy and the birth was, how utterly exhausted I was at every turn. How HARD breastfeeding was for those first few weeks until we both (mother and baby) settled into it.
My husband did the best he could at the time with the tools he had, as did I but we argued, more than we ever had done. There was suddenly so much to argue about, so very little leisure time, or even sleep for either of us and so little money. I went days and days without even managing to have a shower because whenever dh was around and could mind the baby for an hour I collapsed on the bed in exhaustion. It was really really hard on both of us, although we adored her and still loved each other very much.

Second time around, despite having even more challenges (an older child around, moving house to a new country where I didn't speak the language, and my husband starting a new career as an airline pilot so studying and working so hard as well) we had discovered the marriage builders concepts. Honesty, UA time, emotional needs and the POJA and it made such a difference. It was still hard, we were both still exhausted (sometimes still are) but we knew how to make sure that we stayed in love and those pockets of romance made us able to smile at each other through the rough bits much more than we'd ever managed before.

Oh Rosy - how I identify with EVERYTHING you posted. Post Postpartum was so rough and I went through some deeply embarrassing, frightening, and potentially life threatening experiences after childbirth. For me depression manifested as an inexplicable rage. It would have been so easy for all of that to pull us apart.

We couldn't have emerged from that time, love intact (heck even liking each other), without MB.


This has been soooo true for us.

Tom, I know you're not around, but I wanted to share a story with you that I think is a great example of putting the wife first.

I wound up developing Pre-eclampsyia late in my pregnancy and had to be induced at 37 weeks. When DD was born she wound up in the NICU for several days as she ingested some fluid and tissue and then wound up with jaundice. I was discharged and a day later our daughter was discharged. However, I was having a lot of problems. I wound up back in the ICU a day after our daughter came home. The pre-eclampsyia caused complications where my lungs were filling with fluid, keeping me from breathing or even being able to talk.

DD was at home, being cared for by loving grandmothers. DH stayed with me the ENTIRE time I was in the hospital. He went home once to get clothes, other than that he ate, slept and showered with me at the hospital (well we did separate showers).

We had a days old infant at home but he was with me, helping me get through some very scary nights, there for the tests, the poking, the prodding, the worry and stress.

For him, I was first. DD was second.

We did end up having a really fun time on our date last night. Other than watching the movie we spent much of the time talking/interacting. A good spontaneous time out.