Thank you for your post Mark, It was a good read and I agreed with just about all of it I think. I asked J to read it before he went for his course tonight, but he didn't understand it. Didn't understand it? Wouldn't understand it? "basically we don't communicate"
Do you suppose it's possible that J triggers sometimes and still doesn't know how to express his own feelings thus bottling things up until he can no longer contain them?
Yes for sure
Recurring theme seems to have become this "do what you want" sort of thing. You ask his opinion on something you want to do and his response is "do what you want." I know that if my wife told me that I would not take it as her blessing on my doing what I want to do. If I do something I want to do based on this kind of feedback, it means I'm not really protecting her emotions and am really only acting in my own interests.
I certainly know that I don't have his blessing if he says this. Thing is I then don't do it (unless I'm really really mad and want to lash out - which I was going to do sat night, but then with the DD thing, I decided to show that I didn't trust him alone with the kids and stayed in). So if he says "do what you want" - I ask him what he doesn't like about it and he always says "it doesn't matter what I say, you'll do it anyway" and yes during the A I would have done. But it's 18 months now of showing this different behaviour - of listening and taking on board and not doing things. So many suggestions I have made -not just for me but for us that he has turned down flat with this "do what you want" or "do what you want but I'm not"
J comes across to me as not being totally emotionally honest (Since I know you read here sometimes, J, sorry about this, but I understand this from years of being the same way myself) and he seems to have a very hard time setting his own clear boundaries and expectations.
Yes, he understood and agreed with this.
... a person who is keeping emotions in check over one thing to have the emotional content spill over into other ares where their responses are totally out of proportion and sync with circumstances.
Not acceptable. Not an excuse.
Though there was a disconnect taking place before that, didn't things start down this path about the time you began talking about this class you help with?
Certainly did. Back in January - I asked him over and over again, where the problem was because I could tell he wan't happy about it and he insisted that I did it. And this thursday when I asked the question again "what is the problem with it now?" I went through all the things that I thought it could be
the chaos as we pass
it being tea time
him having to do bed time alone
volleyball
He says he doesn't think there is a problem now, he's just annoyed with himself for not saying no originally and that's why he takes it out on me now???? I have told him - like I did then, that if they move vball earlier I will stop doing the class. So I still don't really understand. I have now said that I will give it up because actually it makes me miserable now and he is now insisting again that I carry on with it.
Which brings us onto the sports club membership - I suggested this because I could then do a workout without eating into family time (which the class does) - which is his number one priority and to save money on swim lessons.
He was mad because he assumed I was just going to do it (truly it was just a suggestion) he saw it as IB (I didn't do it, I just asked) and was mad because he wants to join a gym. If he was still working shifts it was his plan that when G went to school him and I could go to the gym together on his days off. And was angry because I manipulated him into taking a job on days when he was happy working shifts.
I am NOT saying you did anything to trigger him in any way
he was triggered by me. But I didn't do anything to trigger him.
simply that you might need to help him express his true emotional state early on so that when he does let things out it
I tried painstakingly with that class back in jan to let him have his say - for weeks.
Also, be certain that you don't feed this tendency to put off dealing with things because he seems like the type person who wants to avoid conflict more than he wants to be happy himself.
Yes he's a people pleaser and puts a lo of pressure on himself.
This points back to the idea of sacrifice causing resentment long term. Once resentment shows itself, entitlement is never far behind and entitlement gives us justification for doing what even we admit is wrong.
I'd never really thought about that in terms of that sort of abusive behaviour. but like you say he does try to justify his behaviour with all the things that he resents.
This includes not only POJA
we just can't get close to POJA because of the "do what you want" it's like
,
but also PORH which says that we should share with each other all emotional reactions both good and bad so that there is nothing that can be used to build a wall between us that prevents intimacy.
I have a problem here, because I don't react well to anger - I runaway now. Our MD lost it (aggressive yelling and swearing,similar to the stuff I have been on the end of) at our drummer at the jazz festival last w/e - I did actually run and hide. J came home from work tonight really cross about a job that he'd done. His report was torn apart - the end use of the report was altered and J wasn't aware. I had to fight my anxiety.
You might be able to pull his feelings out of him earlier in the process but you have to be very careful not to come across as wanting to invalidate his feelings and emotional responses to various things.
The oher thing is that I can suggest that he has a problem with something, because I really really know he has, but he will deny it, if he thinks that I think his problem is unwarranted - even though I am encouraging him to talk.
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He has to know with great certainty that if he tells you that something minor triggered in him an angry or self-protective emotional response that he will be heard, comforted and validated rather than being told to stifle such responses or that he shouldn't feel that way.
I wouldn't tell him he shouldn't feel that way, but I am so incredibly sensitive to his tense body language now that I am not able to validate and comfort.
In much the same way that a BW wouldn't be able to validate or comfort a BH if they felt the need to take a look at a FB page etc.
Even the way any single conflict is going to be handled by you together as a couple needs to be subject to POJA since hurting each other in the heat of battle is what POJA is designed to prevent and unless you are in agreement on how and when to address a problem, the solution itself becomes part of the problem.
I just can't see how POJA works unless you are in love - I can see how it works to prevent and LB� losses but I don't see how it can be used as a tool in our situation - I've tried. Because I ask and get his response I end up sacrificing. Maybe he feels the same way too.... I say no to many things that I am asked to invited to because I want to spend time with J and show him that I want to.
Could it be that things escalate through a cycle that neither of you has recognized yet? VBy this I mean that something begins to stress J which makes you sort of cringe not knowing what his reaction is going to be. As things start to wind up and intensify you drop behind your boundaries, designed to protect your emotions from abuse which at this point might seem imminent but which has not yet become manifest.
Since LAs post to me - I have been trying to assume a new J and I thought it had been working well - I;ve found him a lot more likeable - a bit like what Sere said about not demonising him. So I hadn't been cringing and maybe I do need to be wary still so that I keep my boundaries. It's really hard - I'm not sure how to get the balance.
But because of past history, this boundary has become a wall that you use to shut J out and now he starts to feel like he is left to deal with stuff alone, both the original issue that started it all and his own emotional responses to what is going on and now the feeling of being abandoned by the person he feels is the reason he is even trying to do this. Couple this with an ongoing fear that most BS have anyway, that once fooled every indication of disconnection needs to become suspect and you have a recipe for nuclear holocaust waiting to be triggered by an odd step off the path.
That's it you see MArk. That's what I don't understand. These relapses seem to occur when I feel more connected to him - when I start falling in love with him, when I start enjoying his company more. When we both are talking and looking to the future.
When he read this post he was angry about it. He said he didn't understand - he read it again and then asked me to sit through it and help him - which of course I did. He got up very irritated and asked "how does that help?" "so.. we don't communicate"
But Mark, I really appreciated it and it does make things that little bit clearer to me and has joined more of the dots in my mind. I don't know how I can work through my reaction to anger... I do try to push my fear away. I can try even harder to give him those opportunities to put his POV across, but so often his response his pure defend and I don't know how much more gentle I can be.
I know I have been manipulative but I was so so far from that last week - I just want to work together.
