Its funny, you sound just like friends of ours a few years ago. They looked at us and thought we were nuts spending so much time together, they had their seperate activities and thought that was healthy for a marriage. They stumbled along fine until their first child came along, but they seperated within 3 years of her birth. They hadn't learned how to build a strong close enough marriage to cope with the strain of children and they hadn't learned that you only get out of marriage what you put in.

They're learning it now, but too late for their child to keep her family together.

I think I would be happier if I was making much more than I am now and had an inheritance. That way I could buy boats and cars and my kids college would be taken care of. We could go on extravagant vacations.

Don't get me wrong. I'm satisfied and happy now. But, geez, who wouldn't want a bunch of play money.

Yes, it would fall under POJA. You could POJA living separately for the rest of your lives. Again POJA does not exist in a vacuum. If a couple is interested in having Romantic Love in their marriage they will recognize that the answer to Independent Behavior is not more Independent Behavior - it just further serves to separate the couple. So who cares if your wife goes out with her friends at this point - it doesn't justify you doing the same to her.

A couple interested in a good marriage and familiar with MB will ensure that UA time of at least 15 hours every week is met BEFORE any other activities.

Sure you can go out and do other things. Sure sometimes a person needs time alone to themself. Couple time first. Couple weeks ago DH picked up some moonlighting fixing a coworkers computer. I wanted to go to a movie with a girlfriend. So I went out and he worked on the computer. We still had our UA time that week.

Marriage>any other relationship.

So - you guys hitting your 15 hours yet? If not, why not?


Of course not - you're not in love. Only a couple in love wants to always be with their spouse. And then it doesn't seem uncomfortable or an inconvenience - it's natural and desired.



And it meets your ENs. You've already said you get your EN of Intimate Conversation met from a coworker - I'm sure other ENs are met by coworkers as well.

So would you be willing to try the little experiment? Don't interact with your coworkers this summer - see what ENs you start needing. Then let your wife fill them.

And KT- of course everyone would like more play money - heck I'd love it! However, short of the lottery or a dead rich uncle, for most people the way to make more money, after a certain point, is to work more. I think that's why there is a point where people are happiest, it is the point at which everything is balanced: enough money to live without stress and enough time to spend on the most important things in their life: their families.

I would say it's not technically a direct problem if this is all girl friends. If it's men, I'd say the exact same things to her that we are saying to you.

Also, Dr. Harley says that really it would be best for husbands and wives to avoid such outside activities until they have become each other's favorite recreational companions. So in the case of you two, I think he would advise you to put all of that on hold for now, spend 20+ hours a week together on POJA'd recreational activities, meeting each other's needs for intimate conversation, affection, and sexual fulfillment, until you are at the point where you do find that you miss each other and where recreational activities apart from each other are not as good as recreational activities together. At that time I think he'd say no problem with other activities in your life that are POJA'd and not a danger to your marriage.


Yes, but be aware that it is possible to POJA things that are simply bad for the marriage.

You could both enthusiastically agree to only spend one hour a week together, but that would not make it good for your marriage.

We have seen people here who have POJA'd an open marriage, or drug addiction. That does not mean that open marriage or drug addiction is good for their marriage.

I suppose you could even POJA domestic violence. You get the idea.


Well, as you said above, you can work on a friendship and spend more time with a friend in such a way that you want to be together more. You could work on your friendship with your wife.

Ever seen Hitch? I love this quote: "No woman wakes up saying: 'Man, I hope I don't get swept off my feet today.'"


I can't argue with that!

Hopefully everyone here knows about how I feel about infidelity AND marriage, but I just wrote a post on the new workplace thread that sort of sums up the educator's perspective on "satisfaction in the corporate workplace." Teaching in 1960 and teaching in 2010 are about the same as practicing medicine on Little House on the Prairie and practicing medicine at mayo Clinic. My mother or grandmother's classroom and the modern classroom are almost nothing alike except for the desks.

So yeah, teachers bond. And when you don't.....it affects your job. I decided to crawl in a hole (called my classroom) a few years ago and go to school, teach, and go home. I believe that is part of the reason that when the bottom started shifting out of my job....there was no one there to step up and help. I was an island, and in a public school, islands don't last very long. Somewhere between banging the art teacher (which I did four years ago) and quarantining myself from all of my colleagues was a healthy balance, but I didn't even look for it. I just jerked my knee right out of any real support.

So yes, I believe in MB concepts. I also understand exactly why a teacher would want to spend some time OUTSIDE of faculty meeting with colleagues every once in awhile. And they really aren't mutually exclusive.

I agree, I don't think they're mutually exclusive at all. I'm just trying to point out that there are ways to socially interact with coworkers in ways that STRENGTHEN marriage and ways to do it that UNDERMINE marriage.

Involving spouses, only meeting with members of the same sex if you're without your spouse, not infringing on UA time. All of these criteria can be met, and still provide quality social interaction between the coworkers.

As Tom is going to be interacting socially with a woman who already poses a threat to his marriage, as he is currently not in love with his wife and is not meeting UA time. I think it would be safer for him to avoid these social activities unless his wife is also present.

But then, Tom is interested in hoping his marriage will be safe as opposed to actually protecting it.

Anyone got a cat 'o nine tails? I need to flagellate myself. I feel drawn to urge him to keep seeing his "friend" socially, so I can read the posts about his train wreck. I know. Bad. very un-MB. His wife does not deserve to be hurt that way.

But he is so arrogant and condescending, I almost hope he does have an affair so we can say "we told you so!" I know, bad Hold, bad bad Hold.

bad bad Hold...

very bad.

I'll agree, it's something akin to watching a speeding train heading right for the cliffs. You're desparately trying to get the train to stop, but the guy just keeps shoveling in the coals saying "nah, it'll be fine, I'm special"

As he gets closer to the edge, I think I may bail. I'm having trouble staying on board as it is.

But you know, he may go off the cliff and the secret anti-gravity flotation device installed on the train by benevolent aliens may just kick in... I mean stranger things have happe... oh who am I kidding.

For your edification Tom:

Link to SAA thread

I would like you to note a few things:

This began with a married woman trying to HELP a married friend with marriage problems.

Her husband had a few initial misgivings but early on didn't object to the friendship.

The WW stated clearly at the outset that she was HAPPILY married and LOVED her husband.

This WW has children.

.....and look at what she's done today.

But you don't need to protect yourself, right? It's ok for 'friends' to talk about their marriages.

lurioosi,

I hope you don't mind...

I am going to draw this comment out...



and start my own thread because it has me perplexed and I want to get other opinions on it.

I am not calling YOU out on it ...just giving a call out to others for their opinions.

I work in a school district (with 4 separate school buildings) and this mind frame cost some teachers their jobs.


Again...I hope you don't mind.

committed

I don't mind at all. In fact, I just responded on that thread

Bad Hold, Bad bad hold. That was quite funny stuff there I will admit. I was amused and annoyed at the same time while reading it.

I have not been keeping track by writing anything down, but I believe that we have been spending on average 2-3 hours of UA time together each day. Which puts us close to 20 hours a week. Now I don't know what it will look like when school starts again. So UA has been working well, RC has been good, SF is doing well. We have moments where things get tense, but overall things have been good between us at home.

I could not take your challenge Vib and not have contact with my friends. It was scheduled for yesterday and I did not want to cancel on them. We had lunch, hung out for a while, caught up on what each of us has been doing this summer, talked a little about the upcoming school year, and then all 4 of us went our seperate ways.
I ended up spending the evening having a nice dinner with my wife and talking about our days.
I also don't know why you say I keep shoveling in coal heading in the same direction saying things will be fine. Have I not said that since I have found this site I have used some of the ideas to try and help improve my marriage. I have been making an effort to have that better relationship. You can't expect a 180 degree turn over night, small steps, I am trying to make progress.

Its been awhile, but wanted to update. I avoided the site and tried to push through here at home. Well....you guys are right, what can I say.
After getting back to work, I can see it, it is definetly an EA. Probably more so from my end, but still to some extent from both sides. I find myself happiest around the OW. It is everything of an A other than physical. And I still really don't see that ever happening. But lately I can admit I have been thinking about the idea of it, even having dreams about it. I know, say all the bad things about me that you want, I have been thinking them as well.
I have really been trying to work on doing the good things for my wife and I think she has been trying as well, but right now it just does not feel like enough. I will continue to try and work things here at home to be better, but yes, I am using the crutch of attention and conversation with the OW to try and stay happy. Again, I know, wrong wrong wrong, I'm just saying, that is where I am at. I keep wishing that I was happy enough at home not to want that, but I'm just not there yet.

Tell your wife what you are doing. Stop interacting with OW at all. Begin to look for a job in another school.

Bring your wife here. Tell her about MB, begin affair proofing your marriage.

Read up and make your list of EPs - so this never happens again.

If you don't do this - in a couple months you will be back here telling us the unthinkable has happened: you've slept with OW.

So, you know what you need to do now, right?

1) Tell your wife - she needs to know so she can help put up protections and attempt to better meet your needs
2) Change jobs
3) End all contact with OW

You say you are wishing you were happy enough at home to end contact with the OW. The thing is, it will be impossible to be happy enough at home if you continue contact with her. The OW seems great because you are seeing all of the good (e.g., attention and conversation) without any of the bad that potentially comes with living with someone.

I've told you guys before, you know I can't do that, I can't tell my wife. And nomatter, I didn't say I want to end contact with the friend, I just would rather not think about as much I do, and the way that I do at this point. I want her to simple just be, a friend. But I also want to be happy. Right now, as some would say, I am having cake and eating it too. I have the wife at home, but the happiness elsewhere, the hard part is, I am overall not happy either way.
Again Vib, I have thought about the way I read on here that affairs progress, I know that ours has everything but the physical, and still don't see that ever happening, knowing her, I just don't see it. I know that her sex life with her H is good and when she talks about it, I can tell she is happy with it.

Again, I know the EA is wrong, I know its not helping my marriage, but for its one of few things that make me happy. I know, not an excuse, no excuse, I know. I know.

You are letting OW continue to make deposits in your love bank, the only way to stop this is to close up the bank- and that means NC.

So sex is good for OW - that doesn't mean she won't sleep with you as well. Her and her husband hit a rough patch and you think you're gonna be the gentleman and not make your move? You're already much LESS than a gentleman, betraying your wife the way you HAVE.

She will never just be a friend, you have allowed her to make too many deposits. This is why you have EPs and protect your Love Bank so only your spouse makes deposits that create love. You have destroyed this friendship by not putting into place EPs, by thinking that somehow you could play with fire and not get burned.

This is your hubris.

Your marriage will NEVER make you happy as long as you have this OW.

Tell your wife. She should know what she is married to.

Until you tell your wife I'm done with you. I have no interest in aiding and abetting an adulterer in the destruction of his marriage and in perpetrating an emotional rape on his own wife.

Sorry Vib, my intention is not to irritate you. I simply wanted to update you on the status off where I am at; not any better than before. I don't think its any worse either. I am back to work so I am keeping busy, which is good for me.
I know I have hurt her with information she does not know. Is it really any worse than how she has hurt me with information that I do know, I don't know, I don't think one sin is worse than any other.
I have said before, there is no way I can ever tell my wife about this. She can't know, because I know it would break her. I still want to make life better for my wife and myself, so I will continue to try and do what I can on that front, I have to.

You can't tell your wife not because you care about her feelings but because you are afraid of the consequence - that she will leave you or force you to stop talking to the OW. If you cared about her feelings you would END CONTACT with the OW. So instead, you manipulate her by being dishonest and secretive. You are beyond selfish.

Just because it is not physical, does not mean it won't be absolutely devastating for your wife. Stop trying to justify your destructive behaviors.

I admit that I am not in the right. I know that my thoughts have strayed in recent weeks and I'm not proud of that. I have never before thought about the other person the way I have been lately.
But you are wrong, I can't tell my wife because I do care about her feelings. The consequences I am afraid of are how she would be afterwards. Maybe its because if I was given the choice of being happy living a lie or be unhappy with the truth, I would take the lie.

I am not trying to justify my behaviors/thoughts, I know that they are not what I should be doing/thinking, I have said I know that. I'm simply giving an update to whats going on. I believe that if things turn around and change at some point at home, then the other wont be leaned on as much. I know during happy times at home I have not had these types of thoughts/behaviors. If it doesn't get better at home....I don't know what then. The D word is not an option at this point in time. Ideally things will get better and we will both be happy.