btw, i also found out that, he masturbates while watching porn and that hurts me a lot because if i want us to make love he always has many excuses:-( like his tired and his late etc...

but he said it's normal.

but what i don't understand why watch porn?

Hi all again....

We just had a heavy talk. And I actually want to continue the Plan A, but during our talk, my H insisted that he don't see any reason why he can't go back to Phuket again next year with his friends.
So that means the plan of going back there, is still a go. He made it clear for me, that weather I like it or not, they are still going :-( And I'm very very hurt because, he doesn't want to respect how I feel and he doesn't want to understand how I feel.

I cried after the talk and taking his idea the last time when he was on the verge of divorcing me. I told him maybe he needs space and if he wants he can meet his friend everyday and he shouldn't think about me. I'm not sure if this is a good suggestion. But he said he doesn't want that. He loves me and he still wants to spend time with me. he also don't want to have separation because it's not what he needs.

I told him, that on our next talk maybe we should discuss our emotional needs and expectations with each other. and he said he thinks he already said his part but he will try again. he said what he expects from me is, trust and love and no controlling.

If I trust and love him, then he can go on holidays next year with his friends.

Is that rational?

I don't think it is, for me it's a threat.. please need your advice how can i explain to him that at the moment it's critical to go on separate holidays?
He said he can't wait for the next two years, he said he don't see the difference if he goes next year or in two years.

If you're on my shoe, how would you react?
thanks

he does not respect you, and I would reverse babble with him...or I would say something "ok, help me look for a new bathing suit for the trip"

Separate holiday's in a marriage are

Thanks Sapphire:-(
I told him that he really doesn't respect how I feel.

And then he asked me, he don't see any reasons why he can't go back in Phuket again.

He said he felt he's like in a cage and being controlled by me,

Will I let him go? It's breaking my heart seeing my H is not respecting how I feel, and then he told me that, I also don't respect how he feels because, why I don't trust him to go back there.

To the country where I stay, for them separate holidays are ok for some couples. And they're still together. But I'm not a native of their country I have a different culture and respect is very important to me.

He also blamed me that I'm reading his sms, he told me that i also don't respect his privacy. So we're always getting in circles and we don't know how to solve it.

I think if we separate that's the best for the moment now.

Will I just let him go?

Again he is a wayward, and this is common, he wants his privacy so you don't find out what he really is! A scumbag.

Keep focusing on your plan A till you can no longer do it emotionally, once you can't handle plan A no more, then start writing your plan B letter, and kick him out of the house. YOU don't leave HE leaves!

Good luck

Thanks Sapphire:-(

How can i still continue to do the Plan A. At the moment we are not talking... He's angry and I'm also angry.
Do you think there is a chance of Plan A here?

We are renting an apartment. And I moved to his place. I'm from another country.
Do you think I can let him move out with my Plan B letter?

I need your help with my Plan B letter hope you don't mind :-(

This is a plan B letter that NewPetals wrote to your husband, I did modify it because in your situation your husband is cheating on you with his friends.

Dearest WH,

I am so sorry our marriage has come to this. I recognize my part in our relationship that created an environment where you became free to do what you want with your friends, and disrespect my feelings.

I have learned to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past, and am constantly working to find better ways to resolve conflict between us. I want to create a new life for both of us that meets both our needs and creates a loving home. But we cannot do that until you end all contact with Friend once and for all, and commit to having him out of our lives completely.

Until then, I hope you will understand when I say that I cannot see you or talk to you anymore. IM has agreed to be our intermediary, and she will help in making it easy for you to see your children, as we discussed. Our only contact should be in the case of emergency about the children.

Please understand my decision to separate from you this way. It is too painful for me to live with you any longer as long as you are willing to not respect me and my feelings, to be with your friends. I love you very much, and need to preserve that love so that I will still want to recover our marriage when you want to work on a marriage that consists of always being together even during the holiday's. I ask that until you are ready to help me rebuild and focus on our marriage and family, you leave our home.

The way back home is simple: end all contact; be completely transparent with me with your phone, emails, and time; be truly repentant for the damage you caused; and, commit to rebuilding our marriage.

I look forward to the day when we can begin to rebuild our family and begin the rest of our lives together as a family. I want nothing more than to be your partner through life, and your best friend and confidante in all matters - you have always been mine. We can have a stronger marriage built on trust, love, honesty, and teamwork.

I loved you from the day I met you and I continue to love you right up to this moment. I hope for and look forward to a time when we can begin a new marriage with each other.

Love,

You can change some of the things, this is just an example on what you can say.

_________________________

Thank you for the sample letter.
I will take a look at it,. by the way, Sapphire in my previous post I ask how can I continue the plan A without us talking at the moment?
Do you think it's possible? I'm very hurt, do I need to start the conversation with him?

Thanks for your time

Plan A is very difficult if you guys are not talking, you need to start conversations with him even though it hurts to. Create happy moments with him before plan B, even though in your mind they are not happy because of the pain he has given to you.

Talking is not the ONLY thing you can do to meet his needs, cleaning the house, making sure dinner is ready when he's home, making the bed, doing his laundry, looking good, putting on make up, etc....

Start complimenting him.

What are you doing to meet his EN's? and how long have you been doing that in plan A?

If his ENs are fairly physical such as financial support, Domestic Support, SF, or whatever, then it is still possible to fulfill those needs. However if he wants conversation, then I doubt that you can fulfill that need. Men are fairly physical creatures. For me, I absolutley love having a warm plate of food on the table that I didn't have to make.

Once you are in plan B, he gets none of those needs that you gave him, and you go completely dark from him. Starving him of his ENs will make him go batty, YAY! In the meantime it gives you a chance to heal from the neglect of your EN's. The better the plan A the better the Plan B.

I started to do it last month and then it will break again, because we will start to have fights and arguments, then last week again. and after our talk from yesterday it was very heavy it's difficult to continue to be nice with him.
we agreed that on our next talk we will tell each others EN's

he said his needs are trust and love. which equate to this:
if i love and trust him, then he can go to Phuket next year.

that's been our problem already for 6 months. he wants to go back to phuket next year with his friends, and i suggested that maybe he can move that in another year and instead we go there together. but he said he doesn't want to. because his afraid that we will just fight. he doesn't want to spend with me in phuket but with his friends he will.

i said that i will not be happy if he will go back their next year, without me, because i also want to see the event. but he insisted no. and i also said no to him to go. now he feel controlled and he said, he doesn't see any reason why he can't go. and it's final that he will go next year. even if i don't like. my question is, i don't know what to do next?

he wants me to be ok to go there with his friends :-( and it's breaking my heart seeing him insisting this in every conversation we had. so plan A is very difficult. but i tried last week... now it's difficult again to start....

Trust is not a need, it is earned. Let him know that he can trust you, and you have never stopped loving him. I think these are excuses, fogtalk, rather than needs.

One thing that is rubbing me the wrong way is his disregaurd at your efforts to POJA with him. I was trying to brainstorm some things with Sapph to help you two out, and we are stummped. We were thinking that you could try to strike some deal for him to spend equal or double the time he spent with his friends, with you. He most likely won't buy into any of it because it sounds like he is outright defying your attempts on purpose, as a WH will do. That is why you do not have expectations in Plan A, they can be frusterating.

A year is a long time away, something will have to change.

Hi Wheels_spinning, you mean I will tell him that we will spend more time together? rather than with his friend?

I already told him that he should trust me and he should stop thinking negative things about me. And I assured him that if we go to phuket next year, that we will have fun there and enjoy together. but he said no, because he knows me that i can be very bitc**y, that's what he said...

i know if i'm angry at things, i'm really really angry and i show it that i'm angry. and for him, it's me being bitc**y

i would be happy to get thoughts from you...

he asked me yday, what's wrong for couples to have a separate holidays?

i just came home, met a friend and she told me that i should now look for myself and don't intervene my H most of the time, that i should go back to myself and ask what is really my problem if my H will go to phuket. she told me if i know my H then, i should trust him and shouldn't react like this. she said, i can't stop my H and i can't told him what to do and not what to do. then i was quite bothered. i don't know if i really control him because i don't have that feeling that i control him. in fact, he can do also the things he like, as long as he's honest with me. because of the event that happened it is sometimes difficult for me to understand the changes on his behavior.

I don't think it is a question about going to Phuket. We KNOW what he wants to do when he is there. THAT is why he doesn't want you to go and THAT is why there is NO POJA involved. You don't POJA about AFFAIR behaviour.

I am sorry MarryAnne, you should have stopped PLan Aing him a long time ago because he is an ADDICT and he sees YOU as his obstacle for his fix. Get into a dark Plan B and save yourself.

I agree with scotland. I was actually trying to say that sapph and I were trying to find a way to make the two of you happy through POJA. Then I realized, in the middle of my previous post, you can't POJA with a WH. Especially when it comes to his AFFAIR plans.

We were also talking about how other cultures go on seperate family vacations, and I don't know of any culture that goes on separate holiday. Of course I don't know all cultures out there. It just sounds like a bunch of bull poop to me.

I think your friend is right. You can't expect to control your husband. You only have control over your own actions, and his actions are his problem. You can tell him you don't like it, you can cry and have a tantrum, but if he wants to do something he is going to do it (waywards are jerks this way, but it is also their weakness). A normal marriage would POJA, but an affair is not a normal marriage.

Perhaps this is something you need to take inventory on yourself. Something you have to change within. Do you make demands of your husband? Do you tell him what to wear, how to look act in public, etc? This is a mojor Love Buster in MB terms.

As far as I can tell there is one thing that you can demand to stop at this point in your life. You can demand him to stop this affair. Do not threat with divorce, just say this affair needs to stop.

Who says you have to trust him? There is no reason for you to trust your husband because it is something that is earned.

thanks to both of you.

I haven't read the whole part of POJA. But I will now.
He keep on telling me that, they are just going there to enjoy and have fun as guys and that's all. He said he knows where his limitations are and he knows he trust me and if I go to somewhere with my gal friends it would not be a problem for him. In fact, he will be happy for me.

The reason i'm acting like this, because I found some emails last year and last feb how they talk about the holidays and how my H just take for granted my feelings when he's sharing to his friend. he said those were just joke and i shouldn't intervene his privacy because i might misunderstood their dialect

i think this is the problem for me:

1) he didn't want me to be there whenever his talking to his friend or writing emails or sms. With this i felt he's building a wall not to reach his friend. i didn't understand why, then i kept on asking and if i asked he started to be defensive and aggressive towards me and saying negative comments to me.

2) i felt upset whenever he said something negative towards me then we started to argue. then he goes to his friend and was just surprise that it became important to him now just right after their trip from thailand.

3) one thing i can remember, when they arrived from holidays, he asked me if he can meet his friend one thurs evening which is usually our hamburger day, because he said he doesn't know when he can meet his friend again

4) i do understand that friends are important to our lives,but i don't understand the closeness that they are building and that his deleting sms and writing emails only when he's at the office and call each other when he's at the office and has often the urge to meet him again (which he denies,that it's not true, he said my feelings are not always right)

5) for the past 6 months, everytime he meet his friend we always fight. because i didn't like that he was talking more to his friend than me.

6) i avoided to argue with him, when he was meeting his friend sometime in April and May, but he came to me again and complain that i am not interested with him anymore because i started to do things on my own and started to meet my friends. and even told me that i don't care for him. he told me that he also wants to spend time with me and fri should be our day again to do something together

7) i took his complains and cancel most of my schedules on fri just to give it another chance, but then 2 weeks after (fri) i had my personal coaching, he told me that he wants to meet his friend. i was upset and very angry because it seems he's just playing my feelings. he was not consistent with his words. so we argued that time about spending time on fri and suddenly he's meeting his friend

8) and i think it goes on and on, and sometimes we're good again but the problems are in the surface, surrounding us pretending that we don't see them.

@Wheel_spinning: I don't tell him what to wear or how to look, act in public etc. Demands: as far as i can tell i don't demand him to do this, or do that or buy this for me or buy that. i'm not sure how can you define demands,,,

i understand that he felt controlled because i'm checking his emails and sms, but i think i have the right to know what's going on, if i realized that my husband change and i'm not a part of it anymore.

oh by the way on our last talk he said he can't give up his friendship with his friend. that's what he told me last night.

He told me that i should trust him.

Man, he sounds just like my WH! I keep getting told that too. Don't worry, according to everything that everyone here has told me, this is a common thing with WHs.

Only my WH keeps saying the marriage and me control him. LOL. Whatever, obviously that is not the case with me and I'm sure you feel the same way.

MaryAnne, your WH is an addict. He wants what he wants when he wants it. You have been in PLan A(ish) for far too long. I am sorry to tell you that I believe it is time for Plan B. Are you ready to take that step?

Scotland, i don't know yet if i'm ready, maybe i have to get more information.
how will you know that you're ready for plan B?
so does that mean we have to separate? meaning, not living in the same house?

i suggested on our last talk, how can i help him to give the space he need w/o ruining our relationship & what can i do to give the distance he need if he feels controlled and feel like in a cage. i told him maybe he needs time for himself to think everything. then he asked if i need a break? i asked him back if that's what he wants. because this is really very tiring for me, and it's been 6 months, we've been talking the same topics and i don't see any improvements, except the new exercise given to us by our coach.

he said he doesn't want us to separate as well.so i told him then stop hiding things from me and be open with me.
he said he is, what are the things i'm looking for?

a friend of mine said maybe he's experiencing mid-life crisis.
so the best thing i could do, is leave him for his activities and don't ask why and don't argue with him.

When a wayward spouse wants to separate it is because they want to continue to do what they want without their BS getting in the way.

YES you WILL need to be separated to go into Plan B. The thing is, to implement the plans in MB you need to do them ALL(if PLan A doesn't work). This isn't something you can pick and choose from. You need to do it all. Are you ready to do it all?