I don't have an answer for your questions. Just realize this. The clock was set back to zero after the last contact. If you have been counting the weeks, start over.

Don't want to be a bummer, just want to keep you on the little roller-coaster and not the big one if possible.

mmmherb..thanks for coming back on the thread. I respect hearing your thoughts.

So, three weeks minimum from last sunday. IF, big IF.

Igrip,

I have been intermittently following your thread because the heartbreaking situations of BHs (with emotionally-addicted WWs who are determined to plunge over the adultery-induced-divorce cliff) are a subject near and dear to my heart. I KNOW exactly what your thoughts and feelings are and have been. I KNOW your confusion. I KNOW how a true Plan A STICK seems and feels counter-intuitive and �dangerous�. I KNOW how fear, manipulation, intimidation, and passivity can induce a BH to lapse into the �doormat-zone� without even realizing how counter-productive that truly is. I KNOW how WWs scheme and deceive and plot against their BHs & use his intrinsic trust and love for her to keep him from interfering with or busting her affair. I KNOW how WWs sneak and misdirect to propagate more affair-contact. I know how they love to browbeat, scapegoat, and blameshift their BHs into submission. I KNOW how WWs seek validation, justification, and rationalization for their adultery, how they refuse to look at themselves in the mirror, and how they foist guilt and blame 100% upon a �bad husband� and/or a �bad marriage�.

I know all this because I lived through it all myself.

You are correct�the names and particulars may vary�but the mechanisms and activities of WWs are all eerily similar. This is because it is based on documented, repetitive patterns of human behavior as explained by the psychological factors that Dr. Harley (and many others) have so correctly identified. There is NOTHING unique, special, or extraordinary about your situation. Since the marital �disease� (emotional addiction to the affair-partner) is the same, the treatment (firmly breaking the affair fantasy FIRST) is likewise the same.

You have been �tough-loved� and 'd a fair bit on this thread recently, with good reason as you are belatedly coming to recognize. I fear that Jim is right�your odds of saving this marriage are substantially less than 50-50 & probably dwindling rapidly. It sounds like your WW has already filed, is just biding time in the mandatory �waiting period�, has maneuvered you into signing some sort of unfavorable preliminary agreement, and is still maintaining contact with her OM. You can bet that they have likely just taken the affair underground for a while and that your WW has probably told OM something along the lines of: �just bear with me for a few months until I can get this thing done and then we can be together�. Sorry, Igrip, but to use a baseball analogy, you are in the 8th inning with no one on base and you are down by 4 runs.

There is a question here that you need to answer for yourself�and you need to do it in a determined/non-wishy-washy manner: Do you still want to fight to recover this marriage?

If not, then I would strongly advise you to use whatever little goodwill and nostalgia is left to negotiate the best settlement you can get. That means no verbal pledges. It means get it all ON PAPER ($, housing, custody arrangements, etc.) and get it SIGNED asap. Then take the time you need to heal, move on, and get her out of your life.

If�as I suspect�you still want to fight for recovery, then you have some tough work to do. You are currently (yes, I understand why) all tied up in knots and hanging on to every little sign and word she gives you, looking for a reason to �hope�. There is only ONE SIGN THAT MEANS ANYTHING HERE: Is there contact or no-contact between WW & OM???

Well, there still IS contact as of fairly recently. She is not in withdrawal if she is still contacting him�and she IS CONTACTING HIM. I don�t believe for one second that their affair-relationship is �basically over� as your WW may be manipulating you to think. She has every incentive to placate and dupe you into �not making waves� for her (esp. since her family seems unsupportive of her adultery) while she positions her exit-strategy. Well, my friend, �making waves� is EXACTLY WHAT YOU SHOULD BE DOING! You have been far too passive and doormat-ish in allowing or overlooking contact going on right under your nose and on your dime. INSIST firmly on absolute no-contact and do everything you can to remove all possible sources and mechanisms for renewed communication. Expose her contact again to everyone and keep snooping like a bloodhound�do not trust her one bit! Do everything you can to put pressure on her and on the OM. Anything you can do that might make the affair �not worth the hassle anymore� (like busting on OM via public exposure and a nasty letter from your lawyer threatening to subpoena & depose him) makes it more likely that he will dump WW and move on to other �low hanging fruit�. Your lawyer should be doing everything possible to stall, delay, engage in extensive/intrusive �discovery�, and otherwise make it clear that the divorce process will be costly, lengthy, ugly, embarrassing, draining, and decidedly �un-amicable� in its final outcome.

Along with your �carrot� (which you are doing well), this is the best �stick� you have to degrade, dis-incentivize, and outlast the affair and renew your marriage. Hopefully, the OM will tire of the hassle and move on to greener and easier pastures�and your WW will then have her �happily ever after� OM-fantasy shattered and revealed for the depraved farce that it always was. Do NOT fear �rocking the boat� or �making her mad�! If you back down, chicken-out, become paralyzed with fear or indecision, wait passively, or rely upon shreds of �hope� alone, you odds of recovery fall from somewhere less than 50% to just above zero.

If you just �sit back�, you will likely find yourself in short order out of your house, splitting daughter-time with WW/OM, and have your head handed to you on a silver platter, both financially and emotionally.

I hope I haven�t upset you, Igrip, but I don�t want to see you get sucker-punched like most passive-BHs end up getting. WWs all play from the same two-faced, back-stabbing script. God Speed.

I am by far not the expert. I can only give you what my experiences were. My two oldest daughters were already at college when this was happening to me. The youngest was 15.

I believe the only thing that scared my wife was the thought that I would try to get custody of my daughter. In one of our last conversations before I started Plan B, the thought that I would do that made her basically tell me that whatever I wanted, she would do.

Of course, a gun to the head concession is worth nothing, but I believe the thought of that is about the only thing you have going for you. I am sure she has never had a vision that she would have to leave your house and surely not without custody of your daughter.

I really believe that is about the only chip you have, if you are tough enough to play it. It sucks.

Thank you, princessmeggy, for the backup but....

WILL HE LISTEN???

You hit my feelings on the head...right on every account. This does suck.

Today, I sent a Facebook message to a shop owner (old acquaintance) that he is working with and planning on going on a racing trip this weekend. That guy is also married...not sure what will come out of that, but it is another exposure to another group of OM's friends (the original group has not spoken to him since the exposure).

I love the thought of my lawyer sending him a nasty letter and threat...I will do that tomorrow. No harm and well worth the money.

One of our mutual friends said about OM "he does not like competetion; he just likes to win." Which says that he will likely back down with a bit of pressure.

The only thing I am waffling on (and hear me out) is the 'discovery' on my part. According to what I think I know and a conversation I had with my attorney last Friday, she has not made a move since filing. I have not signed anything. My position is good as it is legally and my wife admitted last night 'if this were a card game, I do have the upper hand." (me, not her). Stalling will be easy..and my lawyer knows that plan. So, what is wrong with just 'sitting' and waiting for her move? At that time, it will be just as easy to 'present evidence' of affair, subpoena phone records, emails, etc.....all stuff that will get expensive. Just my sitting now will not rock the boat at home. Remember, I am just enjoying every day with my family.....I have no intention of doing anything. And the temporary orders thing..that will take weeks and with evidence, can go either way of course and wife must know that or she would have already tried it.

I am being honest at my ideas of waffling...with you guys of course. I know I am not making this ugly as she already has. Most BH's on here, speak from experience, at being at one time in the same boat as myself in feeling so I am not alone. Remember, I want to feel right about my decision so don't worry, I can take the hits....just help me out. OMs letter will be done tomorrow though...

SDCW...I do want to take you up on your offer for a phone conversation. You seem to know the nuances of my situation very well and I appreciate your offer to talk and bang some sense into me verbally

Call me or send me your phone # and I can call you back?

Nine seven nine two two nine seven three six eight.

I appreciate everyone on this board. Thank you.

I will ask you again. How did you find your WW was breaking NC and what steps do you have in place to prevent that from occurring again.

I saw minutes disappearing from our calling card. I called our phone card company and they are able to give area code called from, area code called to, duration and date. That was enough for that bust.

Unfortunately, I have no other ways of finding out. She can get her own calling card. Her phone is password protected so I cannot get in there.

The only way I will know (and it may very well come to this) is to get her phone records subpoena from the attorney (and email accounts as well). Otherwise, I am now up a creek as far as surveillance goes. Unless she 'gives' me access to look at her phone logs..which I am afraid is a major love buster. Not that lying to me wasn't.

Does she have her own calling card? Can't you check her purse when she's not around or sleeping? Can't you get her cell phone logs from the phone company. You can still surveil her, you just need to put forth the effort to do so.

Here is today's drama...unrelated, but I am really and honestly WORRIED about my wife.

Visibly stressed and frustrated all day long. Always basically these days. She today felt that her whole family was against her. I told her they were against the affair, but we all love her. Then, when our daughter asked for ME to get the remote for her, wife gets up and storms away. I go and ask her what is wrong and she said 'take it, take her, take it all..seems like she likes you better anyway.' I try to console and make her listen to herself....nothing. She says she is ok.

I am worried..this is obviously not my wife. But there is nothing I can do is there? Is there anything anyone can do? Or does she hit her own personal rock bottom before bouncing back or realizing anything?

I spoke today on the phone with SDCW and I appreciate your time, caring and insight.

Here is my situation in a nutshell for those who don't want to read 53 pages of it. My wife was having an affair. We have a 2.5 year old. My wife works part-time only. Her mother built on an addition to our house just over one year ago. I am praying for obstacles to divorce instead of 'rocking the boat' by countering, etc. Here are my obstacles.

1. Part-time job cannot support a family so she would need to work full-time and find a job. Therefore, losing precious time with our daughter.
2. House value is not worth more since the MIL quarters were added on - so house sale is really not feasible as MIL would lose ALL of her money.
3. WW cannot afford this house and MIL is retired.
4. Temporary orders hearing would take weeks to setup - then if that WERE to take place, at that time, I have an opportunity to counter, bring adultery in, etc. Basically, at that point, it would be expensive.
5. Wife has filed in May, but nothing has been done since. Nothing. She wants me to do work, but I want to be married.
6. OM lives 3 hours away..and I am adamant that if divorce goes through, we are in the same county till daughter is 18 years old. If she moves, she loses daughter (her attorney told her this..this distresses her).
7. She is stressing out with her family and me telling about her lies.....feels it is none of their business.
8. Discovery (if she requests it), would take at least 2 months to produce (legally). Mediation would take at least 2 months to schedule. Not dragging it, but this is a slow process regardless.

That is the situation and why I am not making any moves. I am enjoying being at home with my daughter every day. And being a good husband, although she believes none of it. She is an emotional wreck pretty much daily. I am roller-coaster, but ok overall.

You want her to experience this inner conflict. Let her hit rock bottom. In the meantime, keep her out of contact w/ OM by any means possible.

Why would you try to console her? She NEEDS to feel MORE of this. Its consequence.....in the meantime continue working on yourself and don't bring up ANY relationship talks.

EXACTLY!!!!, Igrip...as I texted you earlier this evening!


She needs to feel this cuz she's the one responsible for it--don't console her, don't sugarcoat it, and never shield her from the negative consequences of her negative behavior.

Now...did you get that info from your lawyer yet???

Please post it when you do...and call me if you find yourself getting weak-kneed again.

BTW, your exposure of her recent OM-contact to her family was a BULLEYE--you landed a solid punch on the affair-fantasy right there. Remember, the more pissed-off your anti-affair activities make her, the closer you are to the bone.

Hello Igrip, I'm an oldie from MB popping back in for a visit. I had a glance through your thread and I just want to add my 2p worth. I have been through a similar situation and and am now in the process of divorcing. Can I just say that you are getting excellent advice and support here. Please listen to it even if the emotional noise going on in your head makes it hard to hear sometimes. (Not a criticism of you because I know how hard it is) You asked at one point if this strategy will work or not and even at one point expressed concern that Plan A only works 20% of the time.
In my opinion, following the MB strategy ALWAYS works, even if you end up divorced. That might seem contradictory but what I mean is that during Plan A/Plan B you are showing (nonverbally, because actions speak louder than words) the standard of marriage you require in order to stay in it. You want a GOOD marriage not ANY marriage. Your WW veered off the tracks when she had her A but your message is that you refuse to lower your standards. Either she has it in her to break through her addiction and come back on track with you or she doesn't and will continue to spiral downwards. In either case you win. Please believe that. If she comes back having understood her mistake and is willing to rebuild a GOOD marriage with you (even better than before) then wonderful - best possible outcome. But if she refuses and remains entrenched in her situation then you are better off without her. sorry to be harsh.
Your clear aim should be to build as good a life as possible for you and your daughter. She is perfectly welcome to join you both in that life if she chooses to do so but you need to be clear that the life she is proposing as an alternative (lying, cheating, dishonesty, lovelessness) is totally unacceptable to you and you won't live it. Again, I don't think it's necessary or even possibly appropriate to express this in words, you need to feel it deep in your heart and 'live' it. She will get the message even stronger than if you said it.
Remember that regardless of whether you end up living with her, you will always live with yourself and make sure that person is as honest, decent and good a person as you can be. Try to be the kind of man you would like your daughter to marry.
So sorry for what you are going through. Life will get better.

all the best,

Tully

One more piece of advice,

Keep in mind that the MAJORITY of marriages cannot survive an affair. A lot of women are either so far withdrawn even before the affair, or become that way during the affair, that there is no reaching them no matter what you do.

In the end, you could do a perfect plan A, a perfect plan B, then still not reach the wayward spouse (especially women). And, as we all know, we are human and there is never a case where these plans are executed perfectly, no matter how much the "vets" tell you what you should be doing.

For a lot of us, it is just our nature to go into doormat mode and try to appease your spouse. We've been trained to do it through years of marriage.

What I'm trying to say is that in the end, none of this is your fault. She chose to have the affair and she is choosing NOT to work on the marriage. Don't ever play the "what if" game with yourself, what if I had done a better plan A, or done this instead of that. In most cases it just wouldn't have mattered anyway.

So try to take some of the good advice that has been given here, but don't get too down and feel like you've been beaten by this board. Everyone is truly trying to help, but at the same time would never blame you directly for not recovering.

Hmmm. Are most marriages unable to survive an affair? Dr. Bill Harley seems to be torn on this question. In SAA, he writes that in most marriages, affairs lead to reconciliation. Yet on his radio show, he tells listeners and callers, including me, that many WW are unreachable no matter the execution of Plan A and Plan B.

What are people's thoughts on this?

---------------

Me: BH, 39 (and jobless)
Her: WW, 33
Two kids (DS 3 and DS 1.5)
EA: Fall '08
She moves out: Fall '09
Exposed to 12 people plus all my family members
Plan A since May '10 at Dr. Bill Harley's recommendation

I think we need to separate these marriages into two groups.

The first group, where BOTH partners WANT to save the marriage, Marriage Builders can be successful a good percentage of the time (more than 50%? Who's to say). It is still not easy and recovery from an affair is a long, hard road even with two willing and committed partners.

The other group is where the wayward spouse is reluctant or even dead set against committing to saving the marriage. The fraction of these marriages that can ultimately be saved drops dramatically, MB's or not.