Eh, pretty sure it's my fault my posts are difficult to follow. Imagine what my BH has to deal with!

Our original plan (both pre-A and following D-day) was for me to stay home, BH to be the breadwinner. BH has grown increasingly unhappy with his work, and I think he also feels that I get to coast - maybe not in a resentful way, but definitely where I get the better end of the deal than he does.

An aside - but a relevant one, I think - is that I am a homemaker and not much else right now. I have not picked up any outside commitments (volunteer, employment, organizations, etc.), and I don't push myself intellectually and/or physically. I have all of the capability to do those things, and BH sees that as being squandered.

He is not so much pushing me back to medical school as trying to re-negotiate the terms of the relationship going forward. (Like POJA, right? If there's no longer bilateral enthusiastic agreement, figure out a way to fix it.) As many have pointed out, some just can't move past the infidelity. I think BH is one of those. I think being tied to me, and me being "dead weight," is a contributing factor to his feeling of sacrificing everything - and HE isn't the one who screwed up here!

He has said that me doing something - medical school, PhD, something is for those reasons I stated a few posts ago: so I can care for myself and/or the kids as needed, so he can feel more free to pursue other careers, etc.

I honestly don't know what his ideas are about the best way to end the M. I don't ask. Shortly after D-day, he said he thinks this would work, that we'll save the relationship. Then it became 18 years, until the kids left the house. Then it became mmmmaaaaaybe, but more than likely not, 18 years. Then no years. Now...I don't know. 3 years = 'til I'm done with medical school? 6-10 years = 'til I'm done with residency? 18 years again? More? Less?

I stopped asking because I'm trying (sometimes more successfully than others) to operate with no expectations and to assume the worst. That way it's easier to handle when the worst is actually what happens.

Sorry, I am all over the place today, aren't I? I suppose it's overdue - I haven't subjected y'all to anything overtly emotional whackjob-y lately.

No, that's my job.

But I'd like to ask you some questions, if it's okay (related to your opinion on your situation and mine)...not here...unless you want your thread to blow up. Do you have email? I don't know the MB board protocol on this???

Alternatively, I can post it here but...maybe you'd prefer to review it first. Everything I write seems to be problematic to the MB lifestyle; I am not intending to cause an uproar.

Are you doing the MB basics Mrs. V? Do you know your BH's top EN's? Do you know exactly how he likes to have them met? Are you doing everything you can to meet them? If FS is one of his top EN's then you will need to figure out a way to help bring money into the household. Are you getting in your 15 hours minimum of UA time?

It sounds like your BH is stuck in a rut. He's been betrayed by the person that was supposed to care for him most. He is unhappy with work. It's easy as a BS to get resentful as these things in your life pile up.

Is your BH at all interested in the MB program?

fm, go right ahead here. Let the fun commence!

mindshare, we've actually counseled w/ Steve. My BH is the one who directed me to this site shortly after D-day. We go on date nights every week, we spend several hours together each day after the kids go to bed, we've done the ENQ...

I think I can pinpoint my LBers "against" him - squandering my abilities, not working out (not that I'm in terrible shape, just not as good as I could be)... I don't think FS is one of his ENs so much as it's freedom for him. (In fact, he said as much - this is about the only way he sees freedom for himself.)

Even given those LBers, though, and balancing those w/ the EN meeting we do do, I think this is a case of his LB$ being mostly closed to my deposits.

*Sigh.* I understand. I'm doing a better job not complaining (because, after all, I brought this on myself and he never even asked for it). Obviously still not great yet.



This is why I originally asked about a 2-year mark/experience. We are both at the point of more frequent depression/unrest, and not sure how to break out of it. I think for him the answer is freedom from the M/from me. I think for me the answer is 100% commitment to the M/from him. Certainly two mutually exclusive resolutions, that's for sure.

So has he said this or is this just your putting thoughts into his head and words into his mouth?

The first year of recovery pretty much sucks pond water through a collapsed straw. The next year stabilizes a bit and the lows become a little less low though the highs aren't always as high. If the first year is like being bipolar, the second year is like being bipolar and on meds for it.

Also at some point around the 1 year mark, maybe related to the antiversary of D-day but not always related to that, other things come along to cause resentment and if the BS feels safe to vent again, a lot of that comes out in the next few months. Since the time-line for every recovery is a little different, this might be around the 18 month mark for some while it comes as early as six months for others. It depends on when the BS feels safe enough to let it go rather than trying to maintain the peace at any cost.

Also realize that once the affair is dealt with and the fall out from that has been cleared up, most of the time the problems of still having to actually live together and seek ways to become and remain compatible are still there. It is when the actual push to have a new marriage takes place. Again, for some this can happen in the second year and for others it happens later.

You see, after an affair so much of what we think about and work on has been affair related for so long that we can miss the fact that there will still be conflict along the way. Conflict is how we change and grow as individuals and as a couple. The fact that we have conflict is not a bad thing. What can make that conflict bad is how we strive to resolve it.

The farther out from the affair we get, the more likely it is that the problems are not really the result of the affair at all. We all tend to go through the hysterical bonding period and the 6 month or so AO from the BS stage. We then find new ways to actually work on some of the problems that came from the affair and others that led to it and by the end of two years, we usually start to no longer define ourselves in terms of the affair.

But we still have issues, some predating the affair and others that come along after it. It doesn't help either WS or BS that both tend to look as things as BD and AD, before Dday and After Dday.

If you look at Frank Gunzburg's three phases of recovery from an affair you will see that the first is individual healing. This is where you both work to overcome hurts and guilt for what happened before the affair and during the affair.

The second phase is when you heal together as a couple. For some this comes quickly while for others it can be delayed due to lack of healing by one or the other and by outside factors that can pile on top of an already difficult situation and make it harder to work together as a couple.

The third phase, which usually doesn't really happen until around the two year mark for most is when a new marriage is negotiated and built. This is where we find out what we REALLY want from each other and what it will REALLY take for both of us to be happy.

It is in phase 3 that we find out if we can really work together because the fire is out, we have both healed from our wounds and have come up with a basic agreement to work together. But NOW is when we have to decide on colors and styles, who will do what and when they will do it and what a new marriage is actually going to look like.

This is also when things that went unresolved before the affair show back up because they are still unresolved and they still have to be dealt with to have a happy marriage. It's when we have to put POJA into practice and when we find out if we really want our spouse to be radically honest with us or if we'd prefer that they blow smoke up out butts and pretend that they are happy.

One more thing to keep in mind is that needs, emotional and physical can change over time. Much of what we need at any moment in time is circumstantial. What we NEED most is what we don't have or what we feel is most missing. When I first looked at the ENQ during Plan A, my top EN was Openness and Honesty. It was so much my top need that just about everything else failed to even show up. If I could just get honesty, then I really didn't even want anything else.

About three months into recovery, my top EN was still Honesty, but a close #2 was SF. By about 6 months, we had done the hysterical bonding thing and SF had slipped down to #5 and RC was my number 1 and honesty was #2.

Today I would have to say that SF, RC and Physical Attractiveness are likely my top three with Openness and Honesty not even in the top five. In our house we have this dilemma though because my wife has listed FS as her top EN all along, since the very first time we filled out the ENQ together. It still ranks number one on her list and my job now pays even less than it did before because I seldom work overtime.

Yet when I worked a job that paid me MUCH better than what I have worked for the last twenty years, she learned to become independent in her actions and lifestyle. It was that independence that helped her to have the affair and it was her wanting to do whatever she felt like doing at any given time that was the greatest cause of stress in our marriage for the last twenty years.

And of course, the number one Love Buster on my list, that she still tends to accomplish just about weekly without any thought involved at all is IB and the top Love Buster from me to her remains AOs, which I sometimes think really begin as DJs but her response being resistive rather than reinforcing causes my anger to rise and nothing makes me quite as angry as her doing things of the IB nature as if I don't exist and wondering why I should be angry since her intent was not to hurt me but simply to not trouble me with the details of her life. We're workin' on that, yanno...

But after the affair has been handled and the consequences of the affair have been accepted and we learn to give and get again, we still have to find a way to make the whole marriage thing work for us as individuals and as a couple.

I'm done rambling for now...

Time to go home.

Mark

Thanks for throwing in your input, Mark. You brought up a lot of great points, especially about healing as a couple and renegotiating a new marriage.

This is particularly true for us, and I don't know how it will ever change:


The problem I have now is that your post has given me hope, and hope is not my friend! I also wonder if it's cruel of me to keep pushing my BH with this recovery stuff. I think he is much more at peace now that I've stopped resisting his suggestions to change the ideal. Withdrawal is his friend. (Those are my words, and I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am...)

There was a window of time where he was trying to renegotiate the terms of the M, and I viewed everything as a very visceral threat to both me and the M I thought we were pursuing/my ideal M. Problem is my reactions to that (refusal to entertain anything that could open a door for him to boot me out of the M, so to speak) caused some pretty serious LB$ withdrawals, and I think my account is closed for good.

Now that I understand our M stood a better chance with that renegotiation, well, I think it's too late.

I want to discuss this post with him. And maybe we should revisit the ENQ - haven't done that in quite some time. Also need to check what mindshare suggested, re: how ENs are met, not just which ones are met.

Oh, and this:


Those are my words to explain what I felt like to him, and his words to confirm it.

Good morning, Vanilla. My intent was not to turn this into a "Shut-FM-Up-Cause-She-Doesn't-Know-What-She-Is-Talking-About" T/J (I think I've had about 3 of those and I "get it" that I should not ask questions/say much of anything on other threads.) I'll opt not to turn your thread into a circus.

My questions were related to your decision to go to school and your DH emotional progress since your D-Day in 2008...but I will just follow along and see how it turns out for you.

I truly hope that your D is not inevitable because you don't deserve that. It seems that you have humbled yourself and deeply committed yourself to the MB lifestyle and I hope it works to save your M. Good luck!

Every WS "deserves" a divorce. Any chance that they are given to stay in the marriage is a gift from he BS which they do not deserve.

The deserve a divorce because they broke the marriage through adultery. At the moment they committed the act of adultery, they knew that a possible result was divorce. the BS has every right to divorce, legally, spiritually (in God's eyes) and emotionally.

I too hope that Mrs_V's marriage recovers. I think she is working hard to compensate her H and is repentant for what she has done. She is here asking questions about the way forward because she wants her H to love her and be happy with her again. I would like to see their marriage recover. If I didn't believe in post-affair recovery I wouldn't be in my own marriage today, nor posting on this website.

But every WS "deserves" a divorce. That is what they risked by committing adultery. If they are given a chance at recovery, then they are given a tremendous gift by the BS that they do not deserve.

Excellent post Sugar. Right on the money.

I too agree that Mrs. V is trying to do the things needed to recover the marriage. Sometimes, it's just not enough. Some BS's will never find enough just compensation to risk getting hurt again. It's one of those major life events that some people just can't get past.

I hope for Mrs. V that is not the case and that her and her BH can find a way out of the darkness that is adultery.

At an old job many years ago we had a poster on the wall that said...


The idea of a second chance is one that gets kicked around a lot in our world these days. It is said that everybody DESERVES a second chance.

But that isn't true. If I kill someone in anger, do I deserve a second chance to live my life without consequences of my choice to end someone's life?

The thing about an affair is that it basically ends the marital agreement at the moment the choice is made. It violates the terms of the contract, if you will, and the marriage at that moment is over. What I find interesting is that for many at the time of the affair that was in fact their intent, to dissolve the marital union and begin a new marriage with the affair partner. It isn't usually a commitment to the marriage that keeps the cheater in the marriage as much as the fear of the unknown and if the AP shows themselves to be less than the fantasy partner they were thought to be based on the infatuation of the affair, then the marriage is there to fall back on.

But for the BS, the marriage was done when the vows were broken. They are no longer required to continue fulfilling their vows because the agreement is over at that point.

And yet some DO decide to reinvest in the marriage and try to repair the damage done to the relationship by the betrayal. They actually offer a second chance. But a second chance is not what is deserved, it is not "justice" but "grace" that allows that to happen.

This is the way God works as well. He gives us grace as an alternative to what we deserve. He offers a second chance as opposed to justice. It is what we do with that offer that matters most and this is where the idea of repentance comes into the discussion.

Repentance isn't just a change in what we do, either. It is a change in the way we think. It is no longer thinking that I have the right to decide right and wrong issues for myself and that, in the case of a marriage, my vows are what is right and therefor nothing that negates my keeping those vows can be right.

Real repentance is marked by a brokenness that overcomes self justification. It takes the place of defense of position and admits that not only what I did was wrong, but the idea of my thinking that what I did might have been right was wrong as well.

The word repent, literally means to rethink or more to the point for most, to have a new way of thinking. It is because I know longer think the way I do that my actions change and not just a matter of willing myself to abandon my old actions for new ones. My choices change because my values change and not simply because I fear the consequences of my choices if I continue.

This is the basis for acceptance of grace that is offered, yet it is not what triggers grace to occur. The grace is given without regard to merit and if accepted can lead to a second chance. But there is nothing anyone who has chosen to do what is wrong can do to make grace appear and there is no requirement that anyone, God included, give grace as the reward for specific actions on our part.

We all get either what we have earned, or we get what is paid to us. When it comes to even a repentant FWS, any offer of a second chance is unearned wages. What we have earned in that case is to be sent away with nothing because anything earned up to that point was discarded by the betrayal of the vows or marriage. What is done to make compensation is the earning of the grace given but not what makes it to be offered. We pay it back after the fact with what we do to earn it and not earn it first by ending our bad behavior.

No longer doing what is wrong does not earn a second chance. Doing what is right can only demonstrate our gratitude for that second chance if it is given to us. In the case of a BS, that offer is usually contingent upon many factors, one of them likely what is given in return and this is when the grace is earned. If the payback is not sufficient for the second chance, then the offer can be removed from the table at any time.

Just my nickel because two cents won't get you much these days.

And probably worth what I'm being paid for it and not a penny more...

Mark

Agreed, well put, SC.

All too often, people (myself included - it took me a while to overcome those feelings of "but I'm trying so hard - why isn't this just working??") look at effort as a measure of reward.

My family, for example, is pretty much estranged from my BH now. Why? Because they think "Oh, she's trying so hard - why isn't he just getting over it??" Yet they are patient, they are too understanding/sympathetic with me and my role in this. How does my BH deserve that?

fm, it's a subtle but dangerous way of entitled thinking, and it leaves no room for much-needed empathy. Those are the precise conditions that contribute to affairs.

On another note, fm, I posted in all seriousness to you earlier on this thread. If you have questions, go ahead and ask. Maybe we'll both learn something!

And: SC, mindshare - thanks for the support.

Excellent points, Mark! Not always an easy place to reach, but this exactly what has to happen. For those of you reading along at home, or for those like myself who can't always articulate well, this is the beginning of "getting it" and earning your F.


Mark, do you have this or some version of it in Pep's Notables? I am hereby nominating.

Thank you for posting that, Mark, (and for kicking it off, SC). It helps me keep my focus and remove my emotional whackjob hat.

Have you stepped in to defend your BH with your family? If not, you certainly should. Have you explained to them how painful this betrayal can be? Have you told them that the pain can be worse then the death of a child or rape? It seems that your family does not comprehend the level of pain adultery brings about. Perhaps it's time that you educate them and at the same time, defend your BH.

You are showing much awareness Mrs. V. Nice response back to FM. Keep up this work.

I've actually addressed this with them several times, mindshare. The message is a bit muddled in the delivery*, I think, but the larger problem is they just don't seem to (want to?) grasp the enormity of such betrayal. They would prefer to acknowledge that it happened, it was a bad thing, but let's all move forward now and fix it. At this point, there is so much damage to the relationships that I don't think there will be any closeness again.

I come from "not very good at communicating and emotional coping" stock. (As anyone who has followed my thread knows - I certainly fit that description!)



*I went to my family's straight after D-day, and they were witness to a number of emotional calls between DH and I, they talked with DH while he was in a lot of pain (too much pain and anger for them to handle, as they've said), my tendency towards tears and extreme guilt (in a not-helpful, victimizing way)... So none of that helps.

This is not uncommon at all Mrs. V. People who have not experienced adultery first hand often have no comprehension of just how painful it is. They think you should just get over it. Sweep it under the rug. Move on for the good of the family, etc.

Unforunately, this can be another contributing factor to the overall state of your M and your BH's withdrawal. Now, on top of the betrayal your BH has to deal with in-laws that are not supportive of him and, now there seems to be a family rift developing. This just adds on to the overall sense of loss due to the betrayal.

I think you need to find a way to get your family to understand the situation and the pain your BH is going through and be supportive or to stay completely out of the picture and leave the two of you alone in your recovery.

Agreed about the contributing factor. And he says he doesn't care what they think anymore, yet he does bring it up with some frequency when discussing these big issues.

I have done what I think is my best with addressing this with my family. The ball is in their court, so to speak, and I think DH and I agree on this. The poor communication works to our advantage in this, and no family member is actively bringing up anything about recovery, how things are going, etc. Our contact with them is a brief phone call every couple of weeks between myself and them just to touch base about non-A-related things.

It's not limited to my family, unfortunately. However, much more understandably, DH's siblings would prefer he completely D'd me and got on with his life. I can't blame them.

I did make the (huge) mistake at one point of asking DH if I didn't exist to them - which was an extremely poor choice of words to describe what used to go on in my mind a lot (to which anyone who has read my thread can attest): that is, casting about for any ways to make the situation better, more bearable, something that could help the M recover.

As DH pointed out, it was more than completely insensitive and suggested that I didn't really "get it" at all.

Desperation. I've pretty much given up on that now. Can't control other people, doesn't make sense frittering away time and energy on that.