saddestwife, the reason that hunting has to go is because you arne't supposed to ever spend the night apart. This is one of the foundations of affair proofing a marriage. It has nothing to do with POJA. Not even Dr Harley spends the night apart from Joyce.

Anything that takes you away from each other over night needs to be dropped. NOT POJAed, but dropped.

Secondly, if hunting is his favorite recreation, instead of you, then the contrast effect hinders the ability to become each others favorite leisure actitivity.

Now, some folks do hunt. Steve Harley does. But he takes his wife with him to the cabin. He goes out hunting in the morning and they spend the rest of the day and the evening together.

So, the solution is to go with him or cancel the trips. That is a foundation of affair proofing a marriage and creating romantic love.

Additionally, saddestwife, in order to recover your marriage, you must be spending 20+ hours per week of undivided attention. Can't very well do that if your H is out of town.

This program doesnt even work without it. Dr Harley will not take on a couple unless they commit to 15 hours [the min to maintain]. This program is a waste of time without that.

here

Well, Mel, I meant that it needs to be POJA'd so that she WOULD go in some capacity. Sorry, I didn't make myself clear about that.

SadW has said that she is willing to go on a few weekends and I believe those should be the only weekends that SadWH should go on. Hence the suggestion for POJA. NOT to stay apart but to come up with some solutions that would be mutually enthusiastic, KWIM?

IMVHO, I think that SadW thinks that she should suffer some discomfort so her DH can have some JC. I know that isn't the case with JC. It isn't meant to PUNISH the WS. Maybe there is some cinfusion and I am glad that you are helping guide SadW through MB.

Good advice!

SadW:

The fact that your Husband travels ALOT, and then, for the entire Fall, disappears to the hunting camp, is something that is corrosive to your marriage and DOES not help it to recover.

I don't care if your Husband is a Texen, and likes to hunt.

I like to play golf. And I would play every weekend. But it makes my wife angry and resentful. So, I do NOT get to play every weekend. I POJA it with my Wife.

So, guess what? Your Husband DOES have to change something. He just might not get to Hunt every weekend from September to December. You might have to go to the cabin the weekends he goes. And come to joint agreement to the weekends he CAN go.

MB principles state that you should NOT spend the nights apart. Where your M is right now in recovery it is NOT a good idea to aviod this advice.

Does anyone else go with yout husband to the woods? Are there a group of guys who does this with him?

This stuff ain't easy. You have been married along time, with many bad habits learned over the years, Both you and your H have learned bad habits. It is CHANGING these bad habits that lead to recovery.

And it doesn't happen overnight. It takes time.

LG

I would again STRONGLY advise you to send your H here so that he can get help understanding the program.

Your post about how he mocked the GPS and some of the other EPs indicates to me that there may be a problem in the way this info is being presented to him.

You need to understand I am trying to implement MB stuff by stealth -- H is OK with me reading etc., but "don't get carried away." I'm focused right now on what I can change without asking H to change anything, travel or hunting. Especially hunting as he will be understandably resentful if I say "don't go dear as I'm not sure I can be trusted at home alone."

Here is how the hunting thing came up. We were doing UA time having a beer and talking about the RC need. I commented that he must be looking forward to dove season (yes, we do kill songbirds in Texas) and he said "I'll bet you are looking forward to it to so you can spend some more time with your boyfriend." Not sure what the right response to that is besides "no, I'm not". Not sure there is a right response. Have to figure out a way to stop those kinds of barbs at some point.

Scotland -- you are correct -- that I how I was thinking. But remember I am a lawyer -- compensatory damages make the party whole. The legal rationale for punative damages is to serve as a societal warning not to engage in the conduct, although the result in an undeserved windfall for the recovering party.

So, to short circuit that thinking, I have created a Resentment Bank in my brain, and windfall = a deposit in that bank, and am testing EP's to make sure they don't add to it as it is pretty full already. I had a seismic shift in my thinking on the whole subject when I realized that EP's are meant to keep me safe too. I really, truly do want him to hunt as much as he wants -- I like that he's doing something that makes him happy. I just wish sometimes that he would want to want to stay home with me. But that's not an EP issue -- at least I don't think it is?

I will go sometimes, but not dove hunting which is early Sept. -- I refuse to stand in a field in 100 degree heat for hours watching out for careless hunters and rattlesnakes (I'm not exaggerating).

I'd like to offer an EP that would allow him to go without worrying about what I am up to, but I haven't been able to come up with anything. I have some time to figure it out. It may be a problem without a solution.

20 hours a week? I scoff at 20 hours a week. We are together ALL THE TIME which is driving me around the bend insane, but whatever. I actually could not have picked a better time to blow up our lives. We'll be together ALL THE TIME from now to Aug. 15. I'm so desperate for some time alone that I am going to iron all day -- I don't EVER iron -- because the laundry room is too small for both of us.

Thanks for your input -- I've seen a whole lot of EP's on it when it is the WS doing the traveling but it is a toughie from the non-travelling WS's EP point of view.

Have you explained to him that his trips leave you feeling lonely? That although you want him to be happy, you feel resentful that he spends SOOOOOO much time away from you?


His comment about the "boyfriend" seems to suggest that he is worried about what you will do when he goes hunting. If nothing else, you should print out the information on EPs and allow him to read it.

The best thing you could do would be to involve him in the process, instead of trying to do it all yourself. That means to bring him here so he can start reading about MB and the principles.

Yes you had the A. However it will take BOTH of you to recover the M.

Counselor,

Glad to see ya back!!!!....

You DO have gumption and spunk, I'll give ya that!

I do urge ya to call Steve. He will help you navigate this stuff. I understand what you are saying about the hunting and work travel. I could easily see a BS going "WTH!!!! YOU had an affair and now *I* have to quit all the things * I* have always done and loved!!! Forget THAT!!!!"...

That would be because he hasn't quite gotten his mind wrapped around what it will REALLY take to Recover the marriage. And I can see how extremely hard it would be for the WS trying to tell this to the offended BS.

THAT'S where Steve would really help you two. A third neutral party. You don't need H to get on the phone at that first session, just get yourself on there and Steve will help guide you through EVERYTHING.......

You CAN do this........

Not

Hi SW,
Just a suggestion on the POJA stuff as it pertains to your BSs hunting. Is it possible for you financially to afford a private hunt or two with a guide at a resort type hunting lodge? I lived in TX for a year and I know they're out there. This could be a win/win for both of you. You're togther at the same place but hubby can hunt in the morning and you can take a spa. Afternoon and eve is for romance. This would be a great gift for both of you. You both know what each other is doing and most of the time you will be togther. (I'm assuming since you're an atty that financially it shouldn't be an issue). Just a thought.

Your husband has been in IT for 15 years and he doesn't know what a keylogger is? I am not in IT but I know there are ways to monitor computers. Why do you want to know if a keylogger tracks word documents? Why can't you just tell him about the journal? Let him know why you are doing it. If he reads it then at least you have told him about it and why you are doing it.

His response sounds like something someone who has been reading and learning the tricks of a WS.
I'm sorry SW but these 2 statements make me question if you are telling us the whole truth.

I like this idea. Even if they can't find a resort she can stay at the lodge with him. She can hunt some days with him and other days go do something she likes and in the evenings they can have their alone time.

You are beginning to get it! Good for you. You are not there yet but you are certainly trying and making progress and that is so great. Your BH does not get it yet. It may still be a little early, the comment about leaving you to be with your boyfriend is something I have said and I was here getting it. Still, he really needs to be on board with this. This is so hard for you still and his joining will help you so much not to mention how it will help him. How can he tell you not to go overboard when all you are trying to do is make your marriage one that you both relish? His help could be the thing that draws you close enough to really want to make this all work. Believe me, I know you sound as if you want to but there are still things you say that sound resentful enough that I would not be able to recover with a spouse feeling that way. Maybe you just tell us that stuff, I hope so because this is where that belongs and you are doing the right thing telling it here and getting the pros ideas.

If you made copies of some of the things, maybe info about what EP's are and how they work along with the POJA info and left them out somewhere he would see them would he pick them up and look at them? Sometimes that would help others to join in the program or at least have enough understanding of what you are trying to do to help you keep it up.

I don't know if this will help you or not but my FWH used to feel like he should not have to give up the things he loved to do. He did it and at some point the resentment stopped. I also gave up some things and I resented it since I had done nothing to make him not trust me. We both occasionally do things we are not particularly interested in just to be kind, to feel good about doing it for the other and to allow each of us to have some interest that is mostly just our own supported and shared. We do this by using POJA so there is no resentment at all. I would not be able to do the hunting thing...vegetarian for moral reasons...but there must be other things you can do.

Just to reinforce, you have to stop being apart for nights or weeks or even days while one is out of town. I know this is hard in today's world but it really is a must. He will feel better and so will you. My M was one of total IB's, mine because I had no relationship with my H and his because he wanted no marital relationship. It is hard to start but once you start it it is hard to go back or even believe you ever lived that way. We are almost 20 months into this and things can still be difficult. It takes a lot of time, especially after you have been together so long and have established habits. Call Steve, he will make this all seem easier than it is when you are trying on your own to do it. He has an amazing ability to narrow things down to what is most important. Keep it up. You are going to do fine with this. There really is quite a learning curve here and none of it is as easy as it seems it should be.

Are you moving towards practicing radical honesty (here and in your M)? I am not trying to offend you but something is not right here.

Remember: our goal is to help you rebuild your M.

I agree.

I don't.

This is a relationship where BOTH parties "squirm" when "talking about the issues" even before the A. So, for Mr BH to be introduced to MB concepts, by his lawyer WW is going to take alot more time. RH is possible, but SadW has alot more to learn before she can truly model MB concepts.

Can she be hiding something? Sure.

But she needs to keep learning and needs to schedule something with Steve.

LG

And SadW CAN discuss the things that she has learned from MB, and model those behaviors. This will bring about SOME change in her H. Maybe not enough, but some of the most powerful things that a wayward partner who is working hard to fix them selves is to learn about MB and then say:

"I had the A, and then I wanted to find out what was wrong with me, and these are the things that I have uncovered, and tried to repair. And this is where I learned these things, they can and WILL make our M better."


His comment about you seeing your "boyfriend" while he is hunting is one VERY GOOD reason for him NOT to go. Doesn't matter (to me) if your NOT going to go see your OM. If he is concerned about it, then he shouldn't GO. Or he should take YOU. Or he should talk to you about alternatives that allow him to feel safe.

Short of locking you in the basement...

Really, I am kidding...

LG

By stealth, I meant I am presenting MB pieces at a time as they start to make sense to me. H is aware of what I am doing. Yesterday in our UA time we talked about some of the concepts -- I was able to pull up the site on my IPhone, read to him, and then we'd talk about it. Our tolerance level for this sort of thing is pretty low and it's easy for us to slip into mocking which feels safe to both of us, so I keep it short. We are using the terminology. His reaction to the POJA was EXACTLY what mine was when I read it the first time -- "I'll NEVER get to do ANYTHING."

We have a longstanding pattern of one of us giving up and withdrawing, the other going into panic mode and trying, the giving up spouse being so resentful that those efforts are wasted, the trying spouse giving up and withdrawing.... This is the first time we have been at the same point in the cycle. I'm moving slowly -- he's so raw right now and I know when I bring this stuff up it reminds him of the A. Slow is not my normal speed but I think it is right in this case.

We are both concerned about H's ability to meet my #1 EN which is stimulating conversation. I see now that my middle son has been meeting that need and with him going off to college, I peremptorily replaced him with the OM.

H knows me which is why he said that about the GPS. He doesn't want to stay married if he feels like he has to monitor my every move. As I said, my EP's are going to look a little different from the lists I've seen. We are going to have the EP conversation before we leave here in a few weeks and specifically address the September hunting. I don't know how to POJA hunting as for the last year plus I have been so miserable I haven't wanted him around leading to enthusiastic agreement that he should go on my part -- probably not the best reason though. I'll talk to Steve about it.

I asked whether a keylogger tracks Word documents because I was curious -- nothing more. He knows I journal and supports it. He looked at notes I had written for my psychiatrist one time in May--and I hit the roof so I don't think he will look again. The radical honesty thing is a goal, but I am nowhere near it.

I left the house and had a phone appointment with my psychiatrist this morning (H knew) which always makes my H very anxious because he knows I tell him stuff I'm not telling H. My psychiatrist's insistence over the last couple of years that I have not done everything humanly possible to save my marriage is the only reason I'm still married. My psychiatrist is not familiar with MB -- he's been saying a lot of the same stuff but disagrees with some of it. I'll have to sort that out and maybe talk to Steve about it too -- I need to prioritize prior to the coaching session which I have not yet scheduled since I haven't got my list formulated.

BTW, I have been reading this site since late May -- I needed a path forward in my M before I could end my A. I got my first 2x4 on June 16th when I read that people carry resentments/anger for as long as they are useful tools with which to commit emotional blackmail. I am so guilty of that, as is H -- 35 years of stuff is too much stuff -- we are going to have to skinny it down.

My specific question relates to the psychiatrist issue -- any thoughts on what I might say to H to make him less anxious about those appointments in the immediate future? I have another appointment scheduled for Monday.

Going to go work on my Steve list -- will check back here before I call which I will do by the end of the day. I'm setting myself up here -- if I tell you all I'm going to do it and don't do it, I am pretty sure of what your reaction will be.

I still can't figure out the quote thing, so if I fail to answer a question it's not because I'm being evasive -- it's because I have no short term memory left but I THINK I do so I THINK I'm going to remember what I have been asked.

SW, instead of clicking the reply button hit the quote button. Then the post you are replying in will be in your text. I will post a test post and see if you can quote me.

Here you go SW. Try and quote me.