Fred, your story was the very first thing I read when I came to this forum, and I immediately started rooting for you to dump her. Honestly.

It's funny, but the same thing happened to me when I first posted... everyone overwhelmingly told me to be done with this. DONE done.


And I see that what I thought was just good-natured absent minded affection was really neglect... so much neglect that if it had been anyone but me, it would have blown up a long time ago.
I have had a life filled with fun people, fun things to do, interesting hobbies, and my pets. I've been happy. I've also been a very independent person, and was content doing my own fun things while he wasted tons of time on the computer, oblivious to the real world.
I won't be missing much except for the companionship and the income... I'm very used to making my own decisions and implementing plans.



I never felt abused. Taken for granted, yeah, but never abused. And yeah, I'll admit I'm completely terrified to find out that I'll have to look to having my emotional and other needs filled by devils I don't know, at some point in the future. Men don't have such a great track record in my life... now that I think about it, neither do women. It reminds me of a song lyric...
"You said that I was naive, but I thought that I was strong."

Maybe I've never been strong... maybe I've just been naive and optimistic.


I appreciate your opinion, Fred. You've got a perspective that's more than relevant to my situation.

All I ever wanted was to be loved, and to feel safe. I thought I had both and it turns out I had neither. How will I ever know what's real?

It's a lot to think about. But probably needed to be said. Thanks Fred.

I'm trying to figure out what I want to do with the rest of my life.

Wolf, I never felt abused during my M, either. Last night while reading the posts here, I had a memory bubble of WW and I cuddling and reading together. It was a melancholy moment -- just because there were a lot of good times.

But that's part of the point. One of the things people with sociopathic disorders do is isolate their targets from others. Had I not been getting EN met and feeling that all was right with the world I would have been more aware that she had pulled me into her web.

You read my story, so you must have read how I recently learned that she never told me we had been invited to join the neighbors in nights out and other social activities. A case of not knowing what one doesn't know.

Abuse doesn't always leave physical bruises. What I experienced was a continued twisting of reality to fit WW's perspective. I became happy to be "partners" in an us-against-the-world relationship. And it was all a lie.

I can't tell you how to feel, or what to do. I can only suggest you look long and hard at what has been and what could have been. And what can be. Remember, when one door closes, another one opens.

Yeah, we used to do the same. As I look back on our time together, I see what is mostly lots of either happy, or content moments for me.


Are you saying he's got a sociopathic disorder because he's an alcoholic or a porn addict? Or is there something else I'm missing?

And yeah, most of my EN's were met consistently. But maybe I didn't have lots of EN's in the first place? Because of the issues with my FOO, I am comfortable with a certain level of neglect/inattention... it feels natural to me.


Ohhhh yes. After I started really TALKING to our mutual friends, I found out that I'd been invited to a lot of stuff that he simply didn't pass along invitations to. They were shocked that I didn't realize I'd been invited too, and that I had taken it as deliberate exclusion. I think this, right here, is one of the reasons why I seem to have inherited the "mutual friends." I mean, they still talk to him, but mostly because they are worried about him, and if they come down on him too hard he'll just run away and not come back.



Twisted reality. Yeah. Because it suits his purposes far more to paint me in his mind as this uptight, nervous, antisocial personality that is judgmental about his friends and is the death of all his fun.


I'm doing my best to disconnect completely. This also means I haven't reached out to my in-laws any more, either. If that relationship is to be maintained, the burden of proof is on them.

Sometimes I look at my life and feel like I must be from another planet, or something... I have no idea what 'normal' or 'healthy' really is. I have no idea what's actually healthy or real. It's a strange feeling... I've always been so grounded, with a plan, and goals. I'm almost afraid to want anything, in case it's somehow wrong, unhealthy, or completely unrealistic or unattainable.

I had IC with David the counselor yesterday, and he says I'm doing fine, and that where I'm at is "normal."

Don't worry... I am done trying to save this marriage. I just don't know what comes next. Probably lots and lots of therapy.

It's the other way around, Wolf. He's an alcoholic and addict because he's a sociopath. That's one of the symptoms (not that every alcoholic or addict is a sociopath):
[quote]

My understanding of MB concepts is that [u[everyone[/u] has five primary EN. They may differ from person to person, but they exist. I didn't think I had many, either. Then I filled out the EN questionnaire and learned differently. It was one of the markers that got me to realize that WW hadn't left because it was all MY FAULT, as she tried to paint it, but that we each shared 50% in failing to meet each others' EN.

Did you read what you wrote? You tagged it: "antisocial personality." That's a pure Cluster B definition!

I know a lot of people think that when they marry someone they marry the entire family. At some point, one has to take a close look at THAT relationship, too. And if WH goes, they may go, too.

Wolf, in my recovery program I've learned that "normal" is a setting on a washing machine. One of my main goals in life is to be "ordinary." I strive to be ordinary.

Just be good to yourself. And for yourself. Then you'll be OK with yourself.

Hmmm... so does him being a sociopath explain why he can completely shut down his emotions about me, when he thinks I disapprove of his actions?
Does it explain:
Why he can "wear a mask" so convincingly for so long that he confuses even himself?
Why he has an AMAZING lack of compassion for me?
Why he'd omit that I was invited to social events, then go by himself and tell me that even if I'd been invited I wouldn't have wanted to go because of the (insert excuse here: cigarette smoke, kids, noise, rude people, late night, etc)?
Why he filled out the EN questionaire with the counselor and said I was meeting his emotional needs, but it still seemed I was never able to fill his "love bank"?
How he could talk to the counselor about all the love and respect he has for me, and then do stuff this this the very next day?
Why he never seemed interested in anything I did, my accomplishments, etc? That nothing I did was special or good enough?
Why he's obsessed with sex and these very broken women that fit the same archetype as his mother? (alcoholic drama addict party girls)
Why he's so pompous now, and full of himself?
Why he was far more interested in staying neutral and retaining his own popularity than sticking up for me when I was unjustly put down?
Why he's superficially friendly and charming to everyone, but doesn't have any real "deep" friendships?
Why he can't seem to tell the difference between deep relationships and his party friends?
Why he can feign emotion well, but then act as if he didn't have any emotion at all?
Why when he DOES have real emotions, it seems to scare him badly?

WH has always been "the nice guy" and I'm not the only one who would be cautious about describing him as a sociopath. But there are so many things that just don't add up. I think I'll read more about this.



Yeah, he's filled out the EN worksheet (or something like it) with our counselor once, and at the time he said I was meeting his needs. Which is wierd... people with a full love bank don't DO stuff like he does! He got interested in the OW because she was flattering him, and paying attention to him... and basically acting a lot like I did/do. But she was also talking about her very kinky sex life. Nothing that I do registers on him or fills his love bank, but he can be ready to leave me because of a little flattery from someone new? It's all about the new, for him. All about the thrill. I'm sure that he had needs I wasn't meeting... maybe because they simply can't be met?


No, no... he paints ME as the antisocial personality. Me. To him, I am the uptight, nervous, antisocial one. And I had lots of reason to be... I had a lot of people gunning for me, and he'd never say a word in my defense. Now I am wondering exactly HOW many people really WERE gunning for me, and how many he manufactured by failing to pass along invitations, etc?

Did he help CREATE my anxiety in our social circle?!?!?


We've been together so long, and his sisters are significantly younger than him. His youngest sister was born after we were married. I've always been the big sister to them. But after the older of the two attacked me verbally, saying that I'd "never be able to appreciate or be proud of him and what he was doing because I was too bitter because he didn't want to be with me anymore" I withdrew completely. Almost a month later she apologized, saying she'd been "off her meds" that week and I shouldn't take it seriously... but I did. I can't believe she'd see me that way, or say something like that to me, after knowing me all these years! And she was making it out like he'd left me to cure cancer or something... not to drink and screw around! Sheesh!
I've not initiated any conversation with her, since, but when I saw her at their grandpa's funeral last week she hugged me and cried and said how much she missed me. <sigh>


You've given me a lot to think about, that's for sure. I'm wondering now how much I've been "played"... set up to be dependent on him, and only him for my emotional needs. Played into doing most of the work, etc, because I felt guilty about whatever I felt guilty about at that moment. Wow.

Yes. It explains it exactly. Try reading this page and see if you don't recognize your WH.

That's just it. Sociopaths are typically very friendly, outgoing and engaging. They can be the "life of the party."

I had to overcome my bias against the term because of what Hollywood has done to create a novelized image. Most sociopaths come across as everyday "normal" people. It's only when you get involved with them that things start happening that make you scratch your head. If you're paying attention.

When a sociopath is done with his target, nothing makes any sense. They have already moved on to the next one before it even registers. And they turn the whole thing against their target: It's all your fault and they had no part in it!

He obviously doesn't know much about sociopathy. Or, as I mentioned, what he's learned he's gotten from TV. Sociopaths DON'T exhibit the traits he's listed. Quite the opposite, in fact. Sociopaths are very social. What they lack is the conscience, remorse or empathy that prevents them from understanding the pain they cause, or caring.

Possibly. But only you can determine that.

Everyone that comes here all of a sudden finds that they have a lot to think about. The people who get "trapped," I think are those who do not want to look at things but rather cling to the past and want to return to it.

He's got 9 out of the list. 9!

How did I not see this before? I even had friends say that his apologies for cheating seemed overblown dramatic... more like he was in a play than having any real emotion.

He didn't have any early behavior problems, and he's got a good work ethic and has been handling the financial obligations well... so far.



Thus, explaining the rewriting of history, and his beliefs that I horribly mismanaged our finances all these years... that's why we have NO debt except the house! Even though we had epic disasters (real estate problems, two fires, got sued, got a chronic illness and the worst recession since the depression!) he's painting me as a horrible money manager.




I'm co-dependent, not antisocial. It turned out that most of my reluctance to be in crowds, loud noises, places with smoke etc, are all symptoms of my chronic pain condition. I'm on new medication now that's making life a lot more bearable, and I feel positively social! He wouldn't be able to accuse me of being a "hermit" now... and it wasn't totally true, before!


I guess it doesn't matter, really. My eyes are open now. I am coming out of the fog.
FOG = Fear, Obligation, Guilt


No, no... things have drastically changed for me, as a result of this board. THIS thread, and your observations have been very helpful. Between you, and Soolee, and catperson... I've been whacked repeatedly with the "clue bat".

I'm starting to catch on.

I'm going to go absolute NC as soon as I can. I need an IM. This divorce has to get started sooner rather than later, and get through it. I need strength. Things aren't going to be easy... but I feel better today than I have since all this went down in Oct 08!

Thanks, guys!

I think I'm probably going to be less active now that I know I'm not working to save the marriage at all. I'll keep you all posted with the relevant stuff, if you like.

Also, I can be reached at chelyoung at gmail dot com

Folks, Wolf_not_Cougar is asking for IM help in the Divorced/Divorcing forum. Is there an available veteran who is willing to step up to this task?

Ok guys, here's the scoop. I REALLY need an IM. Turns out I can't really be in NC with my stbXWH because of the finances... hearing about SOMETHING from him nearly every day. Communication with him is painful, and frankly he's being kind of a pr!ck.

Fred_in_VA suggested to ask here and see if anyone can help me.

I haven't filed yet, but am planning to see a financial advisor friend of mine and see if I can't swipe some equity out of the house or clean out my meager 401k to pay for my lawyer. This will leave him scrambling, but it will also MAKE him keep paying bills, fixing up the place, etc. It needs to be on the books right away.
Comments, suggestions? Volunteers?

<reposted from another thread>

Hi everyone, here's an update for the curious...

WH filed for divorce late in Feb, and shot me a really low-ball offer to settle out of court. I refused it, cleaned out my 401k plan (about $3500 total) and got a lawyer. My lawyer said not to accept... it was a ridiculous offer. WH also told me to file my tax return separately- he didn't want anything to do with my tax return, so he could file on his own and keep "His refund." My lawyer laughed at this too, and suggested that since WH was wasting so much money, NOT doing any of the improvements on the house, and not contributing anything to my upkeep except for keeping health insurance on me, that we file for a temporary support hearing.

WH was FURIOUS when this came down the pipe, he vented long and loud on FaceBook. He was still "friends" with most of my family and friends, and so he spewed a lot of venom where everyone could see it. This was the end of Mr. Nice Guy. The hearing came quickly, and the judge told him he needed "a reality check"... ordered him to pay $500/month in temporary support, to file our taxes jointly and split the refund, AND to get to work in getting the house ready to be listed! He also said that he'd liked to have awarded me more, but until we figured out what to do about the house that $500 was where it had to be for now.

Afterward WH did a lot of venom spew- you guys warned me that this might come as part of a MLC! The last few months have alternated between him emailing me offering revised lowball offers, random pep-talks about my writing and/or my family situation, a really weird birthday greeting (as in "I don't know if you care about this, but happy birthday anyway.), LOADS of disrespectful judgements, etc. After declining another of his lowball offers to settle out of court, he decided to get back at me by taking photos of ALL the horses (including my old mares that I am keeping) and putting them up for sale on Facebook. This generated so much backlash for him from our mutual friends, that I ended up having volunteers come drive up, get my 3 horses and move them to a friend's place in less than 36 hours from his initial post! They are only charging me for hay, and really doing me a favor. Once again, he was FURIOUS. I really think that him putting the horses up for sale was him trying to force conversation with me, but it backfired.

Other than the necessary financial discussions (which I never intiate AND only keep my replies to impersonal one-liners) I've had no contact with him, other than adding a reminder on the end of one of my financial replies that his disrespectful judgments and lack of realistic solutions had been the biggest obstacle to working things out, without going back to court. I asked him to be civil from then on, or I'd be forced to take our conversations 100% through mediation... which isn't cheap. He reined in his spew, but he's full on in denial and "rewriting history" mode.

His family completely turned on me after I moved the horses. Apparently, they've now decided that they've ALWAYS hated me. You guys were right- you sure called that one! As soon as I started making things uncomfortable for him and he was starting to have some consequences to his actions, his family decided that I've always been an evil witch. <shrug> Whatever.

So, here we are, a month out from the final divorce hearing. I'm doing better. Things are still awfully tough, but I'm managing. I have lots of new friends, a great boyfriend that I'm seeing casually, an active social life, and I still get to see and ride my horses with my old friends (that help me with the heavy lifting and stuff so I'm not too worn out to ride) and all the new friends at the place where I'm keeping them.

I've decided I definitely DO NOT want my WH back. There's no way he's going to go through treatment for his alcohol problem, and that's one of the conditions I set for me even TALKING to him. Honestly I just don't see him getting his head on straight for a long time, possibly NEVER. Once the divorce is final and the house sells, maybe he'll be able to see that HE's his own worst enemy, but for now I'm still a convenient place to put any blame he's got for any of his unhappiness.

Without me being in constant contact with him, he's decided that this is a "breakup filled with animosity." This is kind of funny but sad because I have been so DARK/NC with him that any animosity is ALL him. When he said so to me, I suggested that going NC had protected me from most of the negativity, but if he was struggling with his feelings he might want to consider getting back into counseling. His emails to me have been filled with a variety of newsy chat, armchair quarterbacking of every major financial decision I've made for us over the last few years, whining about how broke he's going to be after the divorce, pep talks on my writing, veiled threats about how hard he can make things for me, and general entitled pomposity. He slips SOMETHING into every businesslike contact he makes with me, and I've been very good about not taking the bait about 98% of the time.

I am sad to lose his family. I love them very much, but I've spent the last 6 months working on my own issues, and I can see clearly now their dysfunction and how my own co-dependence issues bound me so tightly to them. I still love HIM, too... but I'm content to love them all from a safe distance, far away from their own self-inflicted bad choices and drama. Detachment is a wonderful thing.

So, anyway... that's the scoop. Just thought you'd be curious. I'd be grateful for any advice on what to expect next from him. I'm fully prepared to go permanent NC (except for financial stuff) and I've made that clear.

Getting a boyfriend now is not a great move. Do this after the divorce that no-one can point a finger towards you. A rebound boyfriend is also not fair on the new guy. A wolf should take time to select its mate!

Having lots of friends is wonderful. May you continue to be blessed.

So... how much "time" is acceptable? Is it more about the time, or the level of healing?

I talked this over with my counselor once I realized I was having feelings towards my friend... talked it over in GREAT detail, and he said I seemed to be in a good place, and coming at it from a healthy mindset.

Had he given me anything less than an enthusiastic thumbs up, I would have backed off.

I'm over a year and a half out from my STBX's initial bomb drop, and 6 months past when I know I'll never consider taking him back. STBX is the one who cheated twice AND filed for divorce. What else would you have me do, other than wait more time?

Wolf, have you ever considered going into Plan B? Plan B is a complete separation where all contact is ended. See, as long as your H is allowed to stay in contact with you, he gets another fix to stay out there longer. Any leverage or motivation to get him to sober up and change is removed as long as he can continue to contact you.

Additionally, ending contact with him would remove you from his craziness and allow you to heal and recover.

That would be my recommendation. Try Plan B!

p.s. I have no idea what a "MLC" is, but how does that differ from a lying, serial cheating, alcoholic? That sounds like your H's basic problem to me.

[quote=Wolf_not_Cougar][quote=Soolee]12/25/09

I will take a year after the divorce is final to keep working on my issues before I seek any other romantic relationship. I want to be healthy and make good choices. I also have major fears about finding anyone worthwhile to date. Porn/mb addictions are becoming a lot more common, I'm afraid.




#2295512 - 12/29/09 07:03 AM Re: So, it doesn't work on addicts? [Re: Wolf_not_Cougar]
Soolee
Member

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 5037 Wolf...I know right now it feels like you've wasted your time, but you haven't. You've learned more from this relationship than you realize. Wisdom doesn't come without processing all of it - the good, the bad, and the ugly.
You've gained empathy and compassion that you probably don't appreciate right now, but someone, someday in your life will learn from what has happened here. Our time with others isn't wasted - even when it feels like it - because we were put on this planet to teach each other things - even unfortunate things.

What do you feel you've learned from this relationship that you wouldn't repeat in the next? What do you feel you did right? Think on this and take heart.

Hang in there.
_________________________
Sooly

"Stop yappin and make it happen."
"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

Me 47
DH 46
Together for 28 years.
Married 21 years.



Thanks Wolf. I'm a someone and your thread has touched me deeply. I am not quite sure why I read through it all last night. Had a meeting I was rushed to get to and had to get up early today and go to work but I stayed up late to read your whole thread.

You touched me because I have been living the same type of life you have been living. For 10 years I have been a willing participant in what most wouldn't even call a M. Been seperated since Feb 2010 and have had On/off contact with WW alcoholic wife. Mainly for DD's sake and finances. All it does is damage Me and any love I have left for what once was and is now gone. There is a shell of the lady I loved deeply with all my heart and soul standing there with no concept of what empathy is and the damage her drinking and A has cuased to all around her. .There is no one on this earth that can fix her or the problems she brings on herself.

You say in your posts that you go to Al-Anon. Well as an AA & Al-Anon member I SUGGEST using the Big Book also. Fred in Va posted to you about sociopaths. The BB calls them psychopaths. Look up the 2 terms. and then read in the very front of the BB Page XXX the second paragraph. This is The doctors opinion from 1939. Describes my W perfectly. Does it fit for your H to?

Then turn to The Chapter to Wives page 108 paragraph 2 &3. Pretty much sums it up.

This book was written by alcoholics about THEMSELVES. IT WAS EDITED BY THE FIRST 100 MEMBERS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS.

From a MB's standpoint an A is devastating enough alone. Pour in alcoholic then you have a F'd up mess that will not be resolved unless the person truly seeks recovery from the alcohol first. A twisted warped mind does not heal itself.

I never had truly done a Plan B until about 2 1/2 weeks ago. That was after the fourth time since Jan 2010 I (at her request) poured her out at the local detox center.where she stayed for 3 days. She stayed sober 2 days and has proceeded to drink again since then. DOES THE DOCTORS OPINION MAKE SENSE? DOES PAGE 108 MAKE SENSE? DOES WHAT ML IS TELLING YOU MAKE SENSE?

PROTECT YOURSELF AGAINST THIS PERSON THAT WAS ONCE YOUR H UNTIL HE PROVES HE IS ON THE ROAD TO PERSONAL RECOVERY FROM ALCOHOL. HE WILL NEVER BE EMOTIONALLY THERE FOR THE M UNTIL HE DOES.

I PRAY that you will take a look at your statement at the top of the page and ask "The God of Your Understanding" for the wisdom to take you down the best path HE has laid out for you. Its not always the path WE want.

Nesre

I've left this on here so you know I'm taking you seriously... but please hear me out before you decide I'm on a wrong path.


Thank you for sharing this with me. I'm really glad someone has benefited in any way from this whole mess. In reflection, I've benefited in more ways than I can even count! Soolee was right, of course.

I'm glad you're taking the steps you need to protect yourself and your DD. It seems like there are some parallels to our stories... but for the most part I was very content and happy until he blew the lid off with his initial "bomb drop." As I look back, I realize I was happy only because I'd been pretty much brainwashed into believing that his brand of benign neglect was normal and healthy.


I've attended a few meetings of Al-Anon, and Co-Dependents Anon. I've been active in a couple of online groups... one for people recovering from relationships with "Cluster B" personality disorders. (My stbxh has sociopath/psychopath traits but mostly NPD/BPD.) The other online group is for Co-Dependents of Sex Addicts. I've also been attending individual counseling sessions with the counselor that started off as our marriage counselor- it's funny, but my STBXH is the one that picked the counselor out for us, because he wanted a male counselor.

Emotionally speaking, I was nigh unto completely useless for months as I processed all this. But I HAVE BEEN processing it all. Not only the breakup of the marriage, his alcoholism, my slips and falls into co-dependence... but also the core childhood issues that made me vulnerable to this kind of situation in the first place.

I've made no short cuts, I assure you. My IC agrees.


That sounds like a mighty good read. I particularly found Patrick Carne's book "Out of the Shadows" to be the most relevant thing I've read so far, but I'll put "the Big Book" on my must-read list.


Whether or not I love him is irrelevant. He is an alcoholic, and I respect, understand and accept that he's a toxic influence to me and needs to be permanently out of my life in any fashion until he seeks treatment. I GET it.



I don't have the book to reference, but I'm in agreement. I don't believe he stands a chance against this illness, with his entire family to enable him, convince him he's "normal", and cover for his Narcissistic/Borderline/Sociopathic tendencies.

The marriage is finished, as far as I'm concerned.


I'm not religious, so the "God of MY Understanding" is Reason. I'm awake now. I understand my risk factors. I wasn't "boyfriend shopping" to fill the gaps in myself and my life. I've never been more confident in my own judgement or as certain that I'm going to be fine.

I'm a bit puzzled by the whole "OMG NO DATING" attitude, especially since I'm not rushing off to marry the guy, we don't have unlimited time to spend together, AND I've had some serious discussion with my IC about whether this is ok at my stage of recovery and I'm getting the green light. I realize I said I was going to take a year off from dating AFTER the divorce is final... that was a lot of pain and fear talking. I also said "I don't think I'm EVER going to date" and "How will I ever find anyone who's trustworthy?" Things change. Perspectives change. I'm not coming from the same place I was back then. I mean, yes... I'm far from perfect. But a lot has happened to me emotionally since I wrote that line, and it's reflected all through my life.

I'm curious to see if you really feel that I should sever all ties with this good friend of mine... because that's what he WAS and still is. A good friend. We developed romantic feelings for each other, but it started from this friendship.

I think it's ironic that you're praying for me to take a look at my statement from before and see where God is trying to lead me... while my IC, my mom, my grandma, several of my religious friends AND the guy in question have all either hinted or said outright that GOD put someone kind- meaning THIS guy- in my path for a reason!

God this, god that... everyone has an opinion. Most of the "god-related" opinions I've encountered so far about my boyfriend have been of the "God sent you someone special because you're READY" variety. But MY opinion? God isn't going to do anything to help me OR mess up my life. That's all on ME and the choices I make from here on out. It's a whole different ball game than 6 months ago, and I have tools I didn't have then. I have healthy boundaries to protect me from dysfunctional people. I have experience in spotting the red flags. I have some self esteem that comes from not just surviving this emotional wreckage, but THRIVING, and I have gotten some experience at trusting my instincts and asserting myself if something doesn't sound right to me.

Cutting ties with one of the most thoughtful, considerate people I've ever met, just because he entered my life at an inconvenient time just doesn't sound right to me!

So, I'm curious... you're saying I should stop seeing this guy? Just walk away? Or pull the "Oh, I shouldn't have gotten involved, let's just give this a break for a year or two and see what happens?" SERIOUSLY?

Why?

As I mentioned before, I discussed this with my IC in great detail as soon as I realized there was some mutual attraction between my friend and I. In GREAT detail. I doubted my judgment, so I took it to my counselor. I'm still open to questioning my judgement, which is why I'm asking for more clarification. I just don't want to hurt and/or drive away someone who's been nothing but good to me (boy, that's been a weird sensation compared to my relationship with my WH, let me tell you!) just for some arbitrary reason of timing. So, do you mind being more specific? Not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand. However I got here, I'm here. In a perfect world, how would you want me to handle this, and why?

All I will say on that is that you are going to get a lot of God-talk from family on this, from now until the end of time, whether or not you want it. I know from experience.

Mid-Life Crisis.

Although yeah... his crisis started before we even got married. Had I known about the porn addiction and the underlying lies, I never would have married him.

I can see now what he's been like all this time, and how blinded I was.

I have a few friends that are woman that are not romantic interests. I think that is the problem most people are having with all this. They are thinking that that interest is tainted someway in a rebound.

Its hard to say whether this guys interest is positive for you. I don't know the details. There are a few warning signs about that I would consider. I am sure you are aware of them, but they bear repeating, because maybe you are not.

1) Has his attention been healing to your self-worth? In other words, how much of your attraction is linked to the pain you have recently suffered at the hands of your WH? Although you deserve to have a relationship have you got over the last one completly yet? Or are you using this one as part of your healing process as you find self-worth thru his value of you, in his eyes, as he sees you. I feel you have to be able to value yourself without a romantic interest or anyones shoulder to cry on that is showing the signs of being with you permanantly. Its different than freindship, because there is no guarantee that someone will be there like a freind, A friend will tell you when you are wrong, a lover will dedicate themselves to you reguardless because of a need to emotionally bond. It can be sorted out, but its difficult.

Have you forgiven your WH? I am not saying that you should be with him or even try to. I am asking if you have processed what you need to have internally for him to be no threat to your emotional stability now. When he is part of the past and his words and actions are,(sadly of course), just coming from someone that you once saw as trustworthy and loyal and valuable to your life and who has taken a path that you cannot accept in your life and you can truly hope his life can improve for his own sake. The bitterness effects your judgement. His actions should be water off your back, a sad but inept attempt to effect you. Yes you should pity him and although you must protect yourself from him ,not feel bitter about his decisions. He lost you, and to you, that knowledge should be enough that he has no place in your self-worth. He should be nothing to you but someone who has made the mistake of betraying you.


3) In time, will your thoughts change about your lost relationship. Whatever time it takes how may your thoughts/feelings change towards WH? As we get peace we tend to forgive. In five years he might be a new man and you might not have processed all the sadness and loss of the relationship based on whether he would ever change. Right now all the anger from his betrayal and poor actions has you leaving him because you have no choice. What will happen if he changes? I don't know what you had or what depth of love you had at one time, maybe nothing compared to what you aspire to but its something to consider. The man you once loved has been replaced by the alien, but he might still be in there and able to come back.

Im sorry that you have lost the relationship of the family Wolf, sounds like it was painful for you. It also sounds like they have taken his side. Par for the course, he can spin this any way he wants to them to blame you for his problems. Happens all the time.


Those are just some issues that I thought were valid reasons to wait until they were resolved before I started a new relationship with anybody. Perhaps they are tainted by what I would deal with, because if I ever got into another one I would make sure my baggage was stowed away completly before I embarked on a relationship. I would not want to bring anything into it that had to do with the past. It would be brand new, but maybe I'm idealistic and expecting to much. No problem, life is fine just how it is and I don't want anyone to complete it, maybe someday I would share it, but thats all.

Glad to hear you are feeling better and that you are away from such selfish actions as you WH has hurt you with.

First of all, for most of my life I've had more guy friends than gal friends... in fact, even now with all the new female friends and deepening female friendship relationships I have, my "guys to gals" friend relationships are probably 65 to 35.

Most of my female friends are "horse friends" or "SCA" (society for creative anachronism- a medieval reenactment group) friends. My guy friend are my "geek" friends- sci-fi, fantasy, movies and D&D. My "geek" friends have more to do with my everyday life, whereas my horse friends don't have as much time or mind share now that I'm off the farm.

That being said, I'm not trying to weasel out of anything. This new guy, hereafter referred to as "Dancing Guy" has become a boyfriend. I met him because he had a personal ad up in a nearby town where my mom and sister live- he was looking for someone to take dance lessons with. I've always wanted to take ballroom dance lessons, AND I wanted to check out the town a little- I've been thinking about moving there since WH's initial meltdown.
So "Dancing Guy" and I started out as activity partners. We'd get together once a week to dance. He's sweet and a little shy, but very certain of who he is, and I felt completely non-threatened or pressured. I interpreted his "perfect gentleman" attitude as "Not interested in you THAT way, but a good friend."

For contrast, in less than a month after I'd left the house and moved in with my grandparents, the invitations started. The "sci-fi, fantasy, gaming, LARP" community here in my town is very close-knit, and my WH's meltdown was VERY public. Within a few weeks of me moving out, I was inundated with invitations from single geek guys that I'd known (usually for years) inviting me to just about everything you can think of. Several were blunt about their intentions- "always admired you, respected you were married, blah blah blah." It was a huge balm to my hurt ego. If I wanted a date or a booty call, or wanted to jump right in with someone who I knew has adored me for years, I'd have my pick. Seriously, I wouldn't have even needed to wait till I moved out! A couple of these guys are actually kind of attractive... but I recognized that THAT would have been a rebound.

Months have passed. I've had a very active social life. "Dancing Guy" has managed to distinguish himself as a friend- he's got perspective because he's 6 years divorced from his WW, who's STILL WW, and has an 18 month baby by the latest in a string of couch-sitting, unemployed, loser live-in boyfriends. (That description courtesy of Dancing Guy's 13year old son.)

I could go into descriptions of "Dancing Guy" and all his positive qualities, but I'm sure you've all heard it before. It'd be automatically assumed that I'm all ga-ga crazy about him, and deep in the "new relationship" fog, and all that... and it'd be a pretty safe assumption. But not a true one. He's got a lot of sterling qualities, and we get along well... but neither of us are green- we both know it takes more than that to make a relationship work. We're enjoying our time together without it needing to be about anything more than that. Right now, we get to see each other twice a week, for 3-4 hours at a time if we're lucky, and at least every other one of those meetings are with his 3 kids along. DD 16, DS 13, and DD 11. I'm giving the kids riding lessons on my horses, and we're all having a lot of fun! He lives over an hour away. We both have complicated lives, and nothing can change that right now. Aside from our mutual agreement that things MUST proceed slowly if they are to proceed at all, the external situation of time/energy/money has built-in limitors as well.


Thank you. I'm glad to get down to the nitty-gritty on this... and I see everything on this list has been covered with my IC in great detail, once I realized that the "just friends" boundary had been crossed.


<nod nod> Oh yeah- good call. That was the first thing I brought up when I talked to my counselor about this, initially. "How much of this is real, and how much is rebound?" It took up a lot of discussion time. But here's the scoop...

I was married for about 16 years before WH's initial bomb drop. WH was always very involved in his own little fantasy world, and although I frequently came in second place to his computer gaming habit, it really didn't bother me! I was secure, happy, had my own active hobbies and interests, etc. I wasn't this walking black hole of unresolved needs or low self-esteem. I was good with him, or without him. I thought that was how it SHOULD be, in a marriage! Hindsight being what it is, I think that *I* was content, happy and pretty well balanced because I'm ME. If he'd been with another woman who was more insecure or "high maintenance" the situation probably would have broken down long before it did. In my case, it was cheerful independence. In his case, it was willful, passive-aggressive neglect.
It wasn't until he cheated and bomb-dropped that anything came about that made me question my attractiveness or self worth outright. So, I've had about 18 months of self esteem issues compared to a lifetime of having it pretty well together. My counselor has suggested that because I'm fairly well grounded and always have been, that's probably why I'm making a lot of progress fairly fast.


That's where I'm at, 95% of the time... he still has the power to upset me, some, but not so much over his bad decisions to throw me away for skanks and booze, as much as it bugs me that I still have to have contact with him on the finances, house sale, etc. I'm detached and ready to move on, but until it's OVER and through the courts he can still throw in a little nastygram in with a legitimate email about finances or stuff. I'm irritated that he can still spew, he's still trying to justify all this to me and himself, and that I have to listen to it.

I DO admit I'm baffled as to why he keeps doing this. He got what he wanted- rid of me! He's got the wonderful life filled with new women, as much sex as he can catch, and being "his own man." I've been NC as much as possible, given him zero ammunition or reason to talk to me, etc, and he still keeps up with this "poor me" stuff. But, really? I don't care much. He's his own problem now, and while I dearly hope he figures sh*t out before he gets a DUI or gets sick, it's out of my hands. I don't hate him. I didn't spend a lot of time in anger over all this, as part of the healing process. I think it's partially because I recognize that simply being HIM will likely be enough of a punishment. Clearly, he's ill. You know?

I'm in a really tough situation, financially, because of him. Awaiting a Social Security Disability hearing. My life is totally and completely on hold for this divorce and this hearing, and I'm living with and caring for my two elderly grandparents while this works it's way through the system and I can find out what I have to work with, going forward. I'm dealing with some "situational depression"- due to my chronic pain condition and all the stressors that go with this new life, but I'm ok.

Does this clarify? My counselor was satisfied that I'm in decent shape here, overall. Not perfect, but aware, and still actively questioning myself.




I loved him as much as anyone has loved their husband. Actually, I could see many his character flaws, and I loved him anyway- because love is a CHOICE, not a "feeling." The fact that he was unable to reciprocate in kind says a lot more about him than it does about me... and I can see now that there is something SERIOUSLY wrong with him, and his ability to attach/feel love. I really do believe that he's a high-functioning sub-clinical sociopath, with narcissistic/borderline tendencies.

Even though this relationship is over, I've lived a much richer, more complete life for having loved him- and his equally messed up family. I love them all, and I probably always will. But I don't see them ever getting healthy enough that it would wise or safe to love them up close again.

On the odd chance that he would get into recovery and become the kind of person that I'd even associate with again, I'd be his biggest cheerleader... from a safe emotional ( and possibly physical ) distance.

Also, I'm also aware that (however unlikely it would be) if he WERE to come out of this as a changed man and want "friendship" with me, that he could be a big liability to whatever relationship/marriage I might have then. If that were to ever happen, my loyalty would need to be to the new relationship- and therefore it would only be responsible to permanently limit contact with WH.

Bottom line here is that I'm ready to give him up. Forever. Recovered or not. Until I reached THIS point, it would be irresponsible for me to have gotten involved with someone else. Once again, this was also a big topic of discussion with my individual counselor.

He says I "sound like a widow." I'm able to clearly remember all the happy times, and enjoy those good memories, but accept that that life and that relationship is gone.


I loved them as much as a person could love their inlaws... in some way, losing them hurt as much if not WORSE than losing him! I watched his two younger sisters grow up, and had the honor of officiating one of their weddings just last year. (She asked me to get my minister's license, so I could perform the ceremony- because I was one of the people that she'd always "respected the most." Ironically, she's the one that's spewing the most venom now.) I miss my nephew, too. But you're right- it happens all the time. It didn't have to be this way, but that was their choice. I'm sad, but I'll survive.



I understand where you're coming from, and I appreciate that you cared enough to disagree with me and challenge my assumptions. I've taken all this to heart, and I'm continuing to share with my IC, with "Dancing Guy" (where it's appropriate.)

One of the things I remember most about the last year I was with my WH, after he cheated and we got into counseling, up until this last, final split was the sheer INTENSITY of the emotion. The ups, the downs, the all arounds. Never were the highs higher or the lows lower or the drama more drama-ish! Right before we split, I noticed if things were peaceful for a few days, he'd drink too much and provoke a confrontation. He was getting "hooked" on the drama and the conflict! It was then that I realized I couldn't live like that. It wasn't going to be sustainable or healthy for the long haul, and he was just looking for a new kind of fix to add into his mix. I knew it couldn't be me.

By contrast... I don't spend every waking moment daydreaming about "Dancing Guy" and painting myself some wonderful, unrealistic portrait of an idealized life with this new guy who is the opposite of my Ex. I see that's BS. Any and EVERY real relationship is work. But I like that we can have a spirited but respectful debate and agree to disagree. I like that, like me, he's able to appreciate some of the quieter pleasures in life that were totally and completely lost on WH. I like that he doesn't freak out if we don't talk for a few days. He's secure in his own worth. I like that he hasn't been in and out of a bunch of relationships since he divorced, and that he is concerned with rolemodeling GOOD behavior and values to his kids. I look at him and don't feel like some dumb infatuated teenager in love- but I DO see a person I can relate to as an equal. An EQUAL.

There are no shortage of guys, "dudes" and even a few men that want some of my attention. My ego has been well-soothed. But I only have a small handful of people in my life that I consider real "peers." Dancing Guy has made that list. I'm happy to enjoy things as they are between us right now- even if it's a little ambiguous- because it is what it has to be for the moment. Neither of us have talked about the future, beyond the activities we're planning a few weeks out. And we're both ok with that.

Also, another interesting thing is that I don't feel this huge, overpowering sense of attraction to him, like I did with my WH. In all the reading and study I've done, I've uncovered this is actually a good thing. People with personality disorders and in unhealthy relationship dynamics actively seek out new relationships that model their intensity etc on their old ones. The person you're MOST attracted to in the room is probably the one most likely to mirror the last, unsuccessful relationship! So, apparently my brain recognizes Dancing Guy as 'something different' and while I AM attracted to him, it's not some powerful unreasoning kind of stupid like the end days with my WH. Make sense?

So yeah- it's kind of soon. I agree. But I've processed A LOT in the last 6 months... and although I'm still healing some, and committed to continuing to grow, I don't think this is a huge lapse in judgment. If my counselor had said "OMG, you are not ready. You need to see less of him, or just dance and not get personal"... I would have done what he told me to, regardless of how I felt about it, because I've trusted him to tell me when I've had a lapse in judgment. This counselor was the one that told me to "walk away and don't look back" with my WH, and although it was the hardest thing I've ever done, I did what he said and went to as much NC as possible.

My counselor has said that my inherent caution and introspection makes me less likely to just plunge headlong into a "rebound" situation and he's even said he's glad I've found someone to spend time with who's emotionally available and good with processing feelings.


Thanks! I love your new handle, btw... because it's so true. I'm NOT done healing. I'm still a work in progress too. But I'm better than I was, and I can recognize that I've never "lost myself." I've had fairly healthy self esteem, and I'm starting to get back to my natural state- which is fairly cheerful and engaged with life.

Thanks for taking the time to call me on the carpet and explain myself. Not everyone will agree that I've made a good move here, but I CAN say didn't do it thoughtlessly and I've spent as much time thinking about HIS feelings and emotional well-being as mine. I do NOT want to hurt him by being a rebounding flake-woman, and we've both talked in detail about the risks of dating so soon.

Anyway, forgive the ramble. I'm having a bad day, health-wise, and have the cognitive powers of a gnat. I hope I explained myself well enough, anyway...