I think a a large majority of marriages recover after affairs. For probably a majority of affairs, exposure kills the affair immediately. For those affairs where the spouse continues unabashedly after exposure, the prognosis is probably pretty grim.

When it comes to affairs from what I've seen and this is only MY experience, is that WW are harder to reach. With a WW they seem to be more emotionally involved in the A and are more likely to leave their BH. WH's are less likely to leave the M.

Perhaps its for emotional reasons, maybe financial or losing their kids as in most cases the mother is the primary carer

An excellent post by Tully here, thank you. A few points (underlined) bear some additional emphasis, Igrip:

The purpose and goal of MB is NOT �to get my WW back� or �to save my marriage� at any cost.

The purpose and goal of MB IS to restore & renew ONLY a marriage worth having together with a person worth being married to.

It is quite possible and common�see Tully, myself, and many others here�to �fail� at the former while completely satisfying the latter.

Every BS, man or woman, has made human mistakes and failings in their marriage (LBs, neglect of certain ENs, etc.). Every WS has done so as well. There is NO SUCH THING as the �perfect� husband, wife, or marriage. There is something very different about a spouse who owns up to shortcomings AND genuinely seeks to remediate them together is a committed marriage vs. a spouse who does neither or only one of those things. There is also something very different about a spouse who remains faithful to the most basic element of their vows (�forsaking all others till death do us part�) vs. a spouse who selfishly sells out his/her responsibilities and values to chase the �fools gold� of an affair, ripping apart families & friendships in the process.

Yes, �The Fog� is very real to the WS and very baffling & hurtful to the BS. MB seeks to clarify, dispel, & disperse the fog more rapidly than by time and chance alone�in the hopes that the WS will see the error of his/her ways�sincerely and humbly�and take action to renew their character, their value-system, and their marriage while the BS remains still willing.

As Tully stated, there is no point in reconciling with an unapologetic, unrepentant WS/fWS who hasn�t taken some honest looks in the mirror, repudiated their affair, and grown as an individual and as a partner. Doing so, inevitably results in a marriage doomed to eventual failure and (likely) another affair down the road. If your WW doesn�t pull herself out of her self-induced spiritual nose-dive, then you are way better off without her�even though that extraction process is painful.

How long do I give her, you ask? You will know when the time comes. If she persists in the affair or persists in not healing herself & your marriage from it, there will come a point when you realize that she simply is no longer the quality of person you deserve or should allow to contaminate your life.

I know this sucks right now, but Tully is right�Life will get better either way as long as you keep your own standards and values intact.

I can't answer your question MJ, but I can say that the philosophy of this sight seems to be to get a M to thrive after an A. To use the tragedy as a way of turning things back to 'falling in love' (with hard work of course and lots of time as Schtoop points out).

My M "survived" my W's first A (and my subsequent one) for 8 years. But it didn't thrive, obviously, b/c the next go-around destroyed what was left.


To schtoop's other point above: no regrets for not executing the perfect plan A. For me: far from perfect. Even my exposure left lots to be desired. But without MB I would be a mess. M.E.S.S. (and the marriage would have failed anyway and my kids would be in much much worse condition, much worse). Knowing I tried the with the best, most accurate tools I had available to me is comfort enough. I don't regret learning what I've learned and those tools will now be used for the rest of my life, even if they weren't the magic potion to save my M, they saved me (well, it's an ongoing process). And hey, if the marriage was worth saving, one failed attempt wouldn't have spelled doom. I.E. if something changed and STBXW and I BOTH decided to try again (....eeks!!....) the next time I implemented the strategies, I'd do it much better. point?

opt

Here is our conversation of the day. Destiny vs. free will. She is convinced that if we are 'destined' to be together, we will. Whatever happens will happen - and we will end up together again. If not, we will be happy and will know this happened for a reason.

I call FOG BS - not outloud of course. She CHOSE to have an affair. She is CHOOSING to want to leave this marriage. There is no destiny here...we got married and had a beautiful daughter together (DESTINY)? Is it destiny that our family is broken up?

This is a new one to me...she has never spoken like this before. Anyone?

Igrip,

See through this nonsense for what it is--excuse-making and fog-babble designed to remove herself from the responsibility and consequences of HER OWN CHOICES.

She can't be held responsible for "what happens" if it is all just "fate" or "destiny", right?

Um hmmm...yeah, right....

This crap doesn't fool me one bit. My xWW said similar things to me--again cleverly and self-deceptively worded to absolve herself of any (negative) role or responsibility (resulting from her adultery):

"I am sorry our lives have come to this"
"We just are not compatible anymore"
"One cannot force a feeling; I don't control that"
"Things just happen sometimes"

No offense to those who believe in the mythical concepts of fate, destiny, or "written in the stars", but this stuff has no basis in reality. We all DO influence and affect our own future by what we CHOOSE TO DO IN THE PRESENT.

The Bible clearly states that we are given a FREE WILL to choose between good & evil...there is no nebulous, over-riding "controlling force" that directs our lives and leaves us powerless in its grip.

Igrip, your WW is still deep in the addiction-fog to the OM...that is ALL this is.

I agree completely with SDCW_man on this one. Pure fog BS. I'm glad you recognized it for what it is though.

I know Plan A is for myself, not expectations, etc.

But some days, this is just hard. Today, basically just a few words exchanged....just a mopey looking wife hanging around scarcely. Yesterday, she actually talked. Seems like if she 'talks' or does something one day, the next day she retracts fully.

This 'could' be withdrawal? This is normal? Any former WWs out there care to give their symptoms and behavior. Hard to take when you feel for someone so much and they are just 'gone' emotionally. Rant rant rant.

This would only be an example of withdrawal if you were certain that there was NC. This could be a sign of contact too.

Either way, she is still a wayward and waywards act like this. I know that you are trying to see your old Wife. SHE no longer exists. Even if she did return, it would not be fully. She would have an affair in her baggage and that would be hard enough for her to get over.

Now, what are you going to do for your Plan A tomorrow? You are doing a Plan A, so come on. Push through. You CAN do this.

Interesting..I exposed the affair to one of OMs good friends on Facebook the other day. He wrote back 'good luck, but please keep me out of your drama.' Now, he is friends with WW on Facebook all of a sudden..he hangs out with OM. Hmm.

I know this sucks. Hang in there.

The �warm-up and then cool-down� cycle is pretty common. One day she seems to be more interactive and the next she will have nothing to do you, right? Been there too.

�Withdrawal� for her will definitely involve (as screwed up and hurtful as it feels to you) a sense of loss, melancholy, and detachment. The Withdrawal Process can ONLY occur when she is continually out-of-contact with OM and it will inevitably dissipate only if she remains so. That is why snooping, interfering with, exposing, and impeding AFFAIR-CONTACT is so vitally important. That is why her reactions (anger, threats) are unimportant. That is why not being passive and �rocking the boat� instead is so necessary. That is why sticking to your plan and not being thrown off by emotions or others� comments is so stressed here. The over-riding point is:

Your marriage can and will survive the anger, threats, and snarky reactions (of WW/family/friends/etc.), but it cannot survive an ongoing affair.

I don�t know if your WW is currently in �early withdrawal� or not. Maybe�maybe not. It depends on whether she is still in contact with OM and if he is still reciprocating. As we spoke on the phone, he lives 300 miles away so it is tough for them to hide physical meetings. Have you though about getting rid of her Facebook access? Have you thought about keylogging (or password protecting) the computer? Have you thought about tracking the odometer on her vehicle? Since OM must be a long-distance call, can you check her cell phone bill online? Or intercept it in the mail? I�m just trying to think of more ways to make it difficult for her to see or communicate with OM undetected.

Were you able to get those questions answered by your attorney? Knowledge is power�please post when you do. It shouldn�t be hard for your lawyer to give you these answers in one quick conversation.

300 miles becomes 150 when they decide to meet half way. consider this. gf

For two days now, I have just felt like crap. Sad. Grieving. Missing the old wife that I had. Patience and I can see why a Plan B is necessary. This is SO tough to handle at times. Roller coaster just dropped...and is staying low. Why? Any tips on coping.....anything else I do is just missing her. This sucks.

Even so, it is still 300 miles round-trip on her odometer...hard for WW to hide that as "a drive to the mall". I'm just trying to give Igrip suggestions on how he can detect (and hopefully impede) any other ongoing contact with OM.

On a larger note, as I have posted here at MB many times before, this situation is yet another example of how difficult it is to break WW-affairs. WWs are generally much more addicted and sold-out to their adultery-partners & their emotionally-driven fantasies often induce them to cake-eat less and pursue divorce more. So many times a WW chases off after that �grass is greener� phenomenon no matter how illogical, opposed by family, or demonstrably untrue it is. It very often comes down to one simple question:

By any means available, can you get the OM to dump the WW?

�because, as long as the OM is reciprocating, she is very unlikely to dump him.

So, based on forum snooping, OM will probably be in our town this weekend for a race. I can expect some strange behavior and crazy excuses from my wife (probably) to 'get out' or 'get away' from the house this weekend. Any tips or pointers?

She has been 'distant' and nothing really new to report for the past few days. I have noticed that a bottle of vodka in the freezer has been slowly 'dropping' so she is drinking it...not to excess, but still...shows her state of mind as she is usually not a drinker by any means, especially not in the house.

"Get out" with her or go to the race to make sure she doesn't show up and see him.

Thanks jmwc.....I am more worried about 'morning' or 'evening' 'shopping' visits....I will try and find out where OM is staying and try to be 'unavailable' to sit around and watch our daughter during critical times. The race itself I am not worried about because enough of our friends will be around and know what is going on (or what went on).

Today, a good friend of ours 'popped in' to our house just before dinner. HE can sense the tense in her...she is uncomfortable being around him (yes, he knows as well). Guilt of a WW working here? It is like a different wife there...before, she was totally cool with him and liked him so much. Now, it is like a stranger is at home...all normal I think. Anyone else with similar experiences?

igrip,

Your WW is acting no different than all the others. I have the same experience with my WW.

My WW doesn't want to be around any of my friends, or even friends that both of us share. She rejected my offer to come to the birthday party I threw for DD3. (Think of it. She refused to attend a party for her own daughter. That's cold). She also got rid on Facebook of a good friend of hers with strong moral values.

All this did for me is to confirm what Dr. Bill Harley wrote and says: WS change their values to accommodate the affair.

---------------

Me: BH, 39 (and jobless)
Her: WW, 33
Two kids (DS 3 and DS 1.5)
EA: Fall '08
She moves out: Fall '09
Exposed to 12 people plus all my family members
Plan A since May '10 at Dr. Bill Harley's recommendation
Countin' on a miracle to come through

SDCW_Man,

You wrote,

"By any means available, can you get the OM to dump the WW?"

Do you have tips to get the OM to dump a WW?

The problem, as I see it, is two-fold: getting the OM to dump your WW but retaining the allegiance of the WW. This is a difficult task, to say the least. Doing only one of those things is insufficient. The OM dumps the WW, but the WW hates you. The WW loves you, but also loves the OM.

I have considered several methods to get the OM to dump my WW:

-- send him daily emails asking him to stop seeing my WW

-- going to his house and telling him to knock it off

-- challenging him to a fight

-- beat the hell out of him

None of those solutions strikes me as likely to work. For now, I hold out hope for one possibility: the OM dumps my WW because he doesn't want to care for our two young kids, in addition to providing financial support for his two teenage kids.

What do you and others think?

---------------

Me: BH, 39 (and jobless)
Her: WW, 33
Two kids (DS 3 and DS 1.5)
EA: Fall '08
She moves out: Fall '09
Exposed to 12 people plus all my family members
Plan A since May '10 at Dr. Bill Harley's recommendation
Countin' on a miracle to come through
Michael Jan's story: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2410725&page=1

Today - hurdle/roadblock prayer answered. She cannnot get a home loan without me co-signing. She came to me coyly and asked 'you wouldn't be interested in co-signing would you?' I looked surprised and she said 'you knew I couldn't qualify for a loan didn't you.' I told her I knew nothing and had no ideas.

We'll see what her next 'plan' is. SapphireReturns is so right...ww's THINK they have a plan. But they are a mess in a maze and the maze changes all the time.

As for the scaring off the OM, the best advice I have heard is to get a lawyer to draft a letter threatening him. Court, subpoena phone records, email records, force him to come testify, threaten AOA suit (some states accept it - affection of adultery I believe it stands for), send it to his work as well...make his life difficult and maybe he will go find easier prey. Sounds good in theory.