At this point SW, all I can see is D if you do not just give this up. The past issues can be dealt with (although they will not be dealt with in the manner of most MC's) later but first you have to give yourself up and heal your poor betrayed H. Be honest, totally honest, it is all you have left. If you did not like what happened before then I would think that a person might have taken that into concern when thinking about having an affair. What is in the past is in the past for now. You need to immediately drop to your knees and begin to learn to be humble and open and honest.

BTW, I kinda doubt you will be able to control the session with Steve. I suppose you can always hang up but he will do his thing and it will be good and maybe then all of the things we are telling you will make sense. If there is a smack at all it will not be anything more than you finally getting it. He will do it all gently and with understanding, he has heard it all. He is a teacher, the best. He is nothing but kind and understanding. Just listen to him with an open heart and a quiet mind. Your grief, no matter where you think it is from, is most likely coming from knowing you put yourself right where you are. All of it is in your lap and if you would just listen and humble yourself you can take care of it but if you do not do it your H may tire of it all. Can you risk that and keep this up? Will you?

GM took it, everyone here who was a WS and had sessions with Steve took it and I don't think I have ever read a single bad thing about him from any of them so stop worrying and just do the call. You will be glad you did it.

saddestwife, this is par for the course. You will feel incredibly overwhelmed, but the best way to get through it is to humbly own your actions (see DWG's quote), head down, and keep moving forward.

I also agree about the control comments. It took me a looooong time to get off the hamster wheel of frenetic worrying, the anxiety, all obsessing over outcomes and decisions and people over whom I had no control. I can control my own decisions, commit to living a life of integrity, and learn from my mistakes.

You said you felt like you were getting conflicting advice. That, too, is par for where you are right now. And a lot of that has to do with relinquishing control, focusing on what's important in a healthy way, and humbly owning your decisions - past and present.

Other issues can be dealt with later. Right now, your M should be your number one priority. You bring up a lot of things that may seem intertwined with that, but if you keep the singular goal in sight (that of a healthy, fulfilled M), everything will follow from there. You will learn the tools and techniques (PORH, POJA, etc.) to support the M enough to deal with all of these other things eventually.

And FTR: Steve is great. Hope your call is going/has gone/goes well!

^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^

MrsV said it better than I ever could. Both perspectives here, BS and WS. She has walked your walk, I have been on the other side. That applies to everyone here who is responding to you and the common thread in all of it is OWN what YOU did, start healing your H without thought for what will happen to YOU and the rest will follow. There is so much more after you get through the healing and everything you mention about your R with your H in the past will change. Your healing will happen but only if you rescue your H first. Really, you need to get on this right away. He may not be willing to wait for you to heal yourself first and he should not be. He needs to KNOW, really know, that you are in this for the long haul. The saying here is "whatever it takes for however long it takes". Can you put your concerns off that long? I hope so and he needs it to be so.

EDIT TO ADD... you owe him a healed mind and heart even if he leaves you.

The harsh reality is that I'm not willing to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes. There are limits. Another glass of wine in my face or other public humiliation, and I'm gone. He may need to do that to heal, but I'm not willing to tolerate it. So I can't heal him without thought of what might happen to me.

So yes, I'm holding back, waiting for a blow up of epic proportions, although history tells me he gives very little warning. I've lived my life with him under threat level orange for years, and my limbic system has upped it to red.

I'm not asking him to do anything, I'm not talking to him about our past, I'm not insisting that he be polite, I'm not lying to him about the A, and I'm not telling him about my anxiety related to his past treatment of me as that smacks of rationalization.

I don't know where that leaves me -- no where good I suspect. I'm going to make the call to SteveH -- I don't see anything wrong with discussing the notes issue for a couple of minutes as hopefully he can alleviate my anxiety on that which will make it way easier for me to be brutally honest. I'll let him take the lead. I've given up.

BTW -- MC notes were not produced to the other side as the judge found them irrelevant. Lot of pain for nothing.

LG, I didn't try to manipulate the conversation about the A -- I just pressed him to open up about what was clearly on his mind.

This would have killed it for me. There is no way I could have recovered with that attitude.

Whatever works for you but I thought you might need to hear that. I don't think there are many here who would not agree with me. You broke it, drop your guard and take what comes and continue on as though his response did not happen. It is the only way he will ever trust that you are sincere. JMO.

His temper seems extreme but you KNEW that before you had your A. Did you think this would make that better? Does he physically hurt you? If so that cannot be tolerated but if it is only your pride you will recover or should be able to. Do you not think that perhaps you bought this anger?

I am sad for you.

Just for the record... if these records were not produced to the other side, how were they used against you in a deposition?

Nevermind.



Nice counselor. So does this mean you're not talking to SH?

This is none of my business, but are you also being treated for NPD?

It wasn't the notes that were damaging, it was what you said, your attitudes etc.

Counselor, stop trying to shift the blame. It wasn't the fault of the notes. It was the fault of the one presenting the thoughts, ideas and attitudes that were recorded that was the problem.

So don't blame the notes, blame the one about whom the notes were taken.

Don't blame others for your behaviors. Change the behaviors. If your past behaviors, if your past thoughts and ideas were damaging to the marriage, recording them in note form will not further damage your marriage. True, they may be used against you by someone who wants to leave the marriage. But the real question is why do they want to leave? I can tell you, it won't be because of the notes. It will be because of the content of those notes.

It was you and your behavior that will be recorded in any notes. If you are not willing to be open and honest, then what hope is there for any sort of marital recovery. Being open and honest includes having a well documented case for Steve Harley to work.

So please don't blame the notes for any past problems, it wasn't the fault of the notes. Further, don't blame note taking on any unwillingness to work with a counselor. Those notes will not make your marriage any worse. But not allowing Steve Harley or any MC to take notes may make it impossible to recover the marriage.

saddest,

Let me answer this for you. And here in lies the problem. You are not separating what you should do, from what you should allow your H to do.

You should protect your boundaries after first stating what they are to your H. That is not controlling your H, that is protecting your boundaries. How your H recovers and the information he needs is for him to determine. You are trying to control this rather than protect your boundaries.

You seem to have blurred these two things...they are not the same. You most definitely should not allow him to badly treat you.

As for SH, I doubt that he will beat you up. From everything I have heard that is not his style. What you should do is allow him to lead the session and for you to be HONEST with him, rather than lie and try and control the interaction. The man is a PRO and very successfull at this, but he is only as good as the data he receives. You should have no fear of talking to him as his goal is the same as here. To get you and your H to have a good and successful marriage that makes you both happy.

It really is the goal of the posters here to get you there, but SH is really a PRO at this. Listen to him and follow his lead. He isn't perfect, no is, but he is good.

God Bless,

JL

I don't have NPD. I've asked my pdoc. I went off my AD meds in march and started the A which is why the brain chemical thing makes sense to me.

Pdoc and mdoc, including gynocology, notes were produced. Knowing that a bunch of strange men are reading ones gynocologists notes is invasive and humiliating. Possibly that is one thing with which the women can agree.

I'm getting conflicting advice from the forum, the books and my pdoc. I'm hoping SteveH will helpe sort it out and come up with a plan.

I'm sad for me too but I'm sadder for my H and my kids. H really wants to stay married, but I cannot or will not endure any more public humiliation nor can I get my anxiety level down by sheer force of will. What a waste.

A path that requires me to endure another glass of wine in my face if that is what it takes for h to heal is too narrow for me.

I'll see what Steve says but if that is really what is required, I need to go on and file.

The very best advice you will get is from Steve. Take what he says. Leave what we say if his advice conflicts and tell us what he said you need to do. That will certainly help shape the forum for you. He is really the best. Your feelings will change after you speak with him. Listen Listen Listen and then think about what he has said.

I knocked heads with him and stopped my sessions. He made me mad, oh boo hoo me right? He was right, I knew he was right but it made me angry. So do better than that OK? It took me about 6 months to figure out that he was exactly right and that was 6 months of almost wasted time.

I spoke to SteveH. No knocking heads at all. He was lovely -- stayed with me through numerous dropped calls --something's wrong with my phone -- and spent way more time than he had to.

I have a plan.

I'm going to take a break from the subject both with my H and in my brain (hopefully) for a few days -- I'm worn out and my emotional fatigue is not helping.

I'm also going to stay off the forum. I get so upset when I say things like I manipulated my H into talking about the A and that is heard as me manipulating the conversation to keep me from getting hurt which wasn't at all the case, and then I get scared and then I panic and then I despair and none of that helps.

Thank you all. I am sincerely grateful.

Glad your talk w/ Steve went well. Find peace in your "time off," and come back (eventually) to keep us updated. Despite the 2x4s and the heavy knocks you've taken, we all want your M to succeed.

Hi SW,

I have posted to a few others this afernoon, and since your posts keep popping up I also was going to post to you too. So I am now.

I was actually going to recommend that you take a break from the forum here. That is because I feel that women more than men become too sometimes too overloaded with emotions and then tend to clam up emotionally as well as conversation wise.

While I did not agree with your stance from a few of your posts from the last few days, I just want to say I laud you for having the courage and fortitude to even to get to this point of knowing what you need to do. In my short time here I have seen too many BS's esp the BH's appear and then leave.

Take your time, for you, your H, your kids, and your M/

Best regards,

Tom

Tom, she does not need to take a break from the forum. She is desperately in need of honest help, and that is what she is getting here.

Lady C,

Yea you are probably more right than I am. I was just thinking of my W in our own personal life, and me from a month or so ago. This is a great support, but each person has to really decide when they are ready is all I meant, but thanks.

Tom

Well, Tom, I went back and read more, and I think it will be OK for SW to take a couple of days away from posting...and I hope she will be using that time to go over the things that she and Steve talked about and really think about how her own behaviors contribute to her problems.

This is a post to all the WS�s who are resisting talking to SteveH or wondering whether they should make the call themselves. On the forum, I see mostly WW�s resisting but maybe that is episodic.

Just. Do. It.

You don�t want to talk to him because you think you know what he is going to say and you don�t want to hear it.

*You don�t have a clue what he is going to say and you DO want to hear it.

Your situation is hopeless. You are so entangled you can�t breathe.

*He wants to help you release yourself from your purgatory and send you to the marriage you want and deserve.

It�s too much trouble and too much money.

*It�s an hour of your life and a couple of hundred dollars. If you think that�s a lot of money, check out the hourly rate for a decent lawyer or therapist.

Your M may end and you may build a beautiful life with your AP. It is statistically less likely than winning the mega lottery, but it happens.

But don�t go out with a �what if�, particularly if you have kids, because that �what if� will haunt you the rest of your natural life, at every school play, at graduations, at weddings, and the birth of your grandchildren and family funerals and you and your BS will be at every one of those events and you will wonder �what if�.

It�s an hour of your life. JDI (if that isn�t an acronym here, it should be).

Steve wants to help you release yourself from the purgatory of your affair and send you to the M you want and deserve.

You are safe talking to him.

He isn�t going to beat you up.

He isn�t going to lecture you or dictate to you.

You are safe talking to him.

You matter.

You do.

Without you, there is no M.

Make the call and listen. It�s only an hour.

And if you find I am wrong, please come to my thread and beat me up � I�m used to it ��.

I�m posting this on my thread because if there is wisdom and healing in it, it will spread from camp fire to camp fire and if not, it needs to stay here.

WAY too much time studying the Old Testament I think,�..

I am very happy you were able to talk with Steve. He is wonderful. Spread the word, you are not alone, we all do it .

You sound so much better already. I really do think you are going to do this, always have even though it has been really rough and very iffy at times. You are tough and smart. Both of those can get you in trouble if you do not use them correctly but now that you have Steve and a plan you are ready.

I am not so sad for you now

SW,

Wow...I'm sincerely impressed! I'm so glad you didn't bury you head in the sand and choose to talk to SH instead. Excellent work thus far...

Is is possible that we may have a WW here who is really "getting it" and truly recovering??? I hope so...

Best wishes and keep moving forwrd