Did anyone else notice that "never" wasn't an option in the poll???

Not2fun

OBR, your situation is deeply distressing to me. I wonder if it is even healthy for me to be on this thread as I am currently trying to recover from some of the same behaviors that my stbxww and I engaged in way too much and ultimately lead to our demise.

Your wife going out without you is INDEPENDENT BEHAVIOR and it destroys your marriage. You develop different interests, experiences, and different universes. That's how you grow apart and ruin whatever intimacy you may have had. Trust me, I've lived that life. Now I'm 46 days from my D being final.

Mel has described my life in two sentences. I "conflict avoided" myself right into multiple EA's & a PA of my own (intimacy had always been a problem, but causing more conflict about it became more difficult than searching outside the marriage for it). I "conflict avoided" at home until my ww was so far removed she didn't even consider herself married anymore - making an EA VERY easy to fall into last summer. Then I "conflict avoided" the recovery process (like you're doing now) enough to allow her to fall right back into the same behavior patterns (going out with "friends" etc) that lead to the EA in the first place. My plan A was undermined by my own belief that every time she got upset I must have committed a lovebuster - NOT true. Plan A isn't you staying home on the computer and letting her continue to be wayward.

Problem is it's really tough to unlearn your conflict avoiding behavior over night. Very tough. I'm still working on it. These concepts are very difficult and they take so much time, and introspection and reading and processing, and writing and contemplating. Meanwhile, your wife continues to party her little wayward a$$ off - possibly heading for another Affair.

I hope you learn much quicker than I did my friend. If not, at least do EVERYTHING the vets tell you to do if you want to save your marriage.


A few weeks after my ww had stopped communication with OM#1, she decided to stay at the club we had been at (we were bowling and stuff with the kids and another family), just to "talk to a friend she met from England, blah blah blah." When I got home (with the kids) around 9pm I posted something here and someone pointed out I was crazy to let her stay there alone. So I got in the car and drove back up there to tell her she should come home (5 minutes drive). Of course she was talking with a friend but SHE wasn't from England, HE was the man she was known to have "talked to for quite a while" the previous weekend. I made a big scene, confronted the POS and prompted quite a response from my VERY entitled VERY wayward WW.
Here's the kick: The next day, having no sense of boundaries, and not really having a grasp of what plan A was about, I actually APOLOGIZED . The ONLY thing I did wrong was drive drunk and leave my kids at home (something I've never done at that hour). It was the last drink I ever had or intend to have.

I dont' know your thread OBR, where you are in recovery or anything else. I can tell you your marriage will not survive her karaoke nights. You have poor boundaries. Your WW has poor boundaries. And your marriage has poor boundaries. To the extent that you can call it a marriage, it won't last in it's current state; or, as Mel says, it's subject to countless repeated infidelities and perpetual pain for you.

Optimism

obr3,
So, did your wife quit her job? What were the behaviors on the part of your wife that put the two of you into "recovery?"

I get the sense that she is gas lighting you regarding her wayward behavior to the point where you have set up this poll to see if you are sane or just controlling.

You are sane. Her behaviors remain wayward.

Please respond to these questions.

I do not think you are in recovery. I think she continues in her same pattern of wayward behavior.

awesome post, optimism. Thanks for weighing in.

I've always found you learn best while teaching. I think you have valuable insight to impart here so please don't feel you shouldn't advise just because of how things have turned out.

A lot of times posting advice helps me understand and clarify my own thinking or position on an issue.

Excellent post Opt.

Mel and V,
I consider a compliment from either of you to be an honor. Thanks so much for the encouragement. I have such a long way to go, you two (and many others here) are truly an inspiration.

opt

I agree.

You need to get yourself out of the mindset that you are "In Recovery" and get into the mindset that nothing is going to improve here until your WW stops working with OM.

I am not just referring to this poll thread but also to your last post over in SAA that things are "normal" with regard to the EA but that your WW has outlined a long list of problems she has with you and the M.

Please please please do not be gaslighted and distracted from what is REALLY going on.

Oh, and I wouldn't believe for ONE second she isn't trying to meet up with OM unless you can verify with your own two eyes that he isn't there.

I hope you will go back to your thread in SAA and refocus your efforts on fighting the A.

Please pardon my interruption. I do not understand why some are saying to never have a girls night out. Is that how everyone on this forum thinks?

One of the principles of Marriage Builders is that there is no independent behavior. An example of an IB is a spouse or spouses having 'out-nights' without each other. This helps in eliminating scenarios that could lead to an opportunity for the conditions of an affair to occur.

Whether or not everyone on the forum thinks this or not is irrelevant.

And in the original posters marriage, his wife is having a 'girls night out' at the same club where she had her affair. So, no, the wife should not be having 'girls night out'.

This is a very good post. I found good information in your descriptions of conflict avoidance, what it is and its affects on a relationship. It helped give me some clarity since this is what I do; this is how I feel. Thank you for putting it into words.




There are other feelings I have but this is certainly one of them.

I would say the vast majority of folks here don't do girls' or guys' nights out anymore. I haven't in years, and I don't miss it, i like the life I have now better. Not that I was ever really into that, anyhow, somehow I always wound up as the driver And I was the one who would get hit on, even when I was the only one of the group married, which creeped me out. So it's easy to ask others to consider eliminating the stepping out.

I'm still catching up on these posts, but I'll go ahead and answer you.

I didn't go with her because this night out started as only one event. A work related event to which co-workers had tickets. It's a high society thing that costs $200-$300 per person. That's why I didn't go.

Then, like usual, the event turns into dinner, drinks, etc. I did consider driving downtown, but didn't for a few possibly stupid reasons:

• I ride a motorcycle, it was wet out, and I don't like riding on Fri and Sat nights due to the high number of drunks on the AL roads.
• I didn't want to make a scene
• I want her to choose to do the right thing

Why should she - if she knows you'll let her do the wrong thing?

I mean it's great for her. She gets to play wife when she wants to - and then gets to go play single girl and prowl for men when she wants to.

A person with strong boundaries will CHOSE to do the right thing. Unfortunately, your wife is not that person. She could become that person - but if she hasn't on her own yet, she wont.

If you want that kind of woman as your wife - you must let your WW know in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that that is what you want, and you wont take any less from a spouse.

And what if she "chooses" to disrespect your boundaries? What do you do then? Nothing? Sit there like a lump?

If there are no consequences when she violates your boundaries, then you have no boundaries and are no better than a doormat.

Women do not respect men they can run over and for most of us, our love is contingent upon the respect we feel.

And people in hell want ice water, does that mean they get it?

Seriously, friend, you need to deal with WHAT IS, rather than what you "want." You are not getting what you "want" apparently.

She has not quit her job. Early on she snapped at me the 3 times I brought it up, refusing to quit.

She did do a no-contact letter, broke the agreement, then another no-contact letter (it wasn't a great one; I posted it). After that she seemed to become very honest with me, telling me things that were terrible to hear. After she was out very late on a weekday, I decided to expose. That ticked her off bad and the typical words were said.

Since then I haven't found any more evidence of contact, though with the work proximity, I can't guarantee it. She read the His Need Her Needs book.

You are correct, I am seeing if I'm sane or just controlling. Ever since D-Day I've lost grip with my reality. I'm questioning everything.

One thing that seems true (by everyone I've asked) is that her sense of marital boundaries is messed up beyond belief.

It is not insane to expect fidelity and openness and honesty from the person who vowed to love, cherish and protect you for the rest of her life.

And as long as she works there - there will be contact. Even if it is being on the same email list. There is contact. Your marriage will never improve while she is there. The knowledge that she is there close to him will gnaw at your soul.

You're slowly circling the drain.

She must quit her job.

It isn't controlling to expect her to do what it takes to fix the mess she made. If she wanted to keep her job she shouldn't have been messing around with a co-worker. Funny how this job matters AFTER the affair...

Wow,
I wasn't expecting the results I got her. optimism got one thing right, I'm a conflict avoider. Breaking the mindset of being a conflict avoider is proving very difficult. Apparently I need to seek help on that.

She does need to leave her job. She is breaking boundaries. In Surviving an Affair, leaving a job (getting completely away from the affair) was said to be the best act a WS could do to show he/she's willing to work on the marriage. Early on I was told, in an unpleasant tone and volume, "Me leaving my job won't make you feel as good as you think it will".

My wife's ego is huge. She has a tendency to be controlling. Her mother is very controlling and stubborn also.

Getting through to her about her destructive independent social life has been nearly impossible. Attempting to follow Harley's advice, I've made no demands, but I have told her that certain things will cause us to fail: her current job and her going out.

She comes from a stable home. I don't know how her view of marriage and marital boundaries became so skewed. I suspect some of her female co-workers are poor influences on her.

In our 2nd year of marriage, she emailed a married male former co-worker often, mostly after we moved to another state. Long on-going emails. I didn't like it, told her so, and she rained down on me about me not trusting her and how I'm jealous and controlling for not wanting her to have male friends. Early on she partly blamed the affair on me making her doubt herself because I'd been unhappy with her relationships with other guys.

The Surviving an Affair book I believe suggested planning a date for Plan B. Mine's Sept 17th; 3 months since D-Day.

HI. What I would like to know is how you have managed to put up with this woman who totally disrespects you since the day you were married.

What is it about YOU that married a woman like this, stays married, and puts up with her bad behavior?

No one should put up with this ABUSE.

She has all the power in your relationship but at the same time is totally UNLOVING toward you. This is a very abusive situation. No one should have to put up with this for even one day.

I see you are planning the Plan B. At least you are doing that. Two years into the marriage, maybe you should have seen what she was like enough to divorce her.

Can she change into a normal, loving caring woman who does not have affairs or go to bars or disrespect you every day?

I do not know....