</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How many women out there have husbands who want you to wear sexy lingerie, but you don't because you don't feel good enough about your body?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have accepted porn in my relationship as long as certain barriers, which could lead to addiction or infidelity, are not not crossed. But, I have to admit that knowing my fiance looks at porn even on occasion causes me to compare myself all the more to the beautiful models and other beautiful people around me every day. It lowers my confidence. So, while the use of porn has been POJA'd in our relationship at this point, it is not without risk and sacrifice. I'll wear whatever 5x wants, but something he has to accept is that while he looks at porn, I don't feel as comfortable and sexy. Porn does make me less likely to feel comfortable in sexy lingerie.

Then again, even without porn, I'd compare myself because that's what humans do (esp. women). Many women spend great amounts of time, energy, and money to look outstanding, and whether or not my guy looks at porn, I'll be comparing myself to them. The porn just makes me question my appearance more.

Smile

sorry, DP

<small>[ January 21, 2004, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

nice and honest post, smile.

scrum, you did mention that men don't understand a woman's insecurities...particularly around thier bodies and porn and being compared.....

it would be nice if a H tried to understand them......wanted to understand them.....and wanted to share his w/ own insecurities w/his wife. that could build a great deal of real intimacy.
but, most of the times, he will hide his own issues, deny them or cover them up.......and hope that she will do the same....just get over them.

what good does that do either of them?

SmileADay,

I do not understand why you and women in genral have the self-esteem issues related to porn, however I do accept it.

I do not know how to alleviate those issues and I know first hand what a can of worms porn can be. I am engaged to be married and even though my fiance is open to the idea of porn, I do not want to open that Pandora's box.

We have taken a different tactic to learning about each other and adding some spice with the book "101 Nights of Great Sex". There are 101 sets of sealed instructions. Fifty for her and fifty for him. Some of them are pretty hilarious. All involve anticipation. I think going "by the book" takes some of the pressure of failure away, worries of doing something wrong and help with inhibitions.

I hesitate getting involved in this discussion noticing all the "slams" but did want to comment briefly.

Scrum said: "Porn is an escape, a release, sometimes something to do to keep from thinking about what they're not getting from their wives."

So is alcohol, drugs, etc. God created sex and it is good within a marriage between the couple. Pornography twists and perverts it. Alcohol in and of itself is not bad. But people lack self-control and become addicted (to either porn, alchohol, food, drugs, whatever it might be) and yes, they are "escapes" from reality, but they are very poor and harmful "escapes."

Pornography is a HUGE business. Hugh Hefner is a very wealthy man. Sex sells. The intent of the pornographer is not to "help" a marriage by giving the man an "escape" from his marital problems. The intent of the pornographer is to make money. Children are exploited, men become addicted and enslaved by their lusts, and women are degraded. There is absolutely no way around that.

A woman should not have to share her husband with any other woman (nor a man share his wife with any other man)... whether it be a woman she knows or a woman in a magazine. I honestly believe that any woman who says that she doens't mind her husband viewing pornography has deceived herself. How many women look for a "tall,dark, and handsome man who looks at pornography?"

What happens is the man justifies it to the woman convincing her that it's "okay" and she agrees. But she is deceiving herself, he is deceiving her, he is deceiving himself.

The only naked woman a man should lay his eyes on is his wife! To say that he has to look at pornography to become stimulated or as an escape or release, etc... is only saying, "I lack the self-control to deny myself."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not understand why you and women in genral have the self-esteem issues related to porn, however I do accept it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi Scrum,
I think it's harder for men to understand the self-esteem issue in part because men are not so competitive when it comes to appearance. Men tend to compete in terms of sports, intelligence, business success. Most women go so far out of there way to look attractive...it's a big deal. The beauty, fashion, models...they are everywhere and they are mostly heterosexual. Men have the fall back that many male models are homosexual and thus not a threat to their relationship.

Depending on how secure you are with your own appearance, manhood, strength, athleticism, etc., I may or may not be able to draw up a suitable analogy.
Ok, if you found out that your fiancee was looking at male pornography in private, how would you feel? Now, let's get more specific. Let's say she likes to look at it to marvel over the size of the men's package. Let's say that she really likes a large bulge, although she wouldn't bring this up with you because of your pride, and your package doesn't at all compare with what she dreams of. It's possible that she doesn't even want you to have a bigger package for performance reasons like giving bj's or less painful sex, but boy does she get her kicks looking at them.
Maybe you are incredibly well endowed and this wouldn't bother you, but for most men, this is a tender spot (no pun). This is the source of most men's insecurities the same way breast size (butt size, cute little waist, etc.) is for women.
Guys are drawn to large breasts. They love staring at them. Very large breasts may not be very practical, but dang they're fun to look at. All women know this. All women compare their breasts to large chested women at some point...even if they have beautiful, perky B or C cups. Come on...think of the pain and inconvenience of breast implants. Large breasts are uncomfortable...they cause back pain, hurt when you bounce, limit the clothes you can wear and still look respectable. But, look at how many women want bigger boobs!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
At least your penis size isn't automatically evident to every person who checks you out.

So, when you stare at pornography, marveling over those large beautiful breasts, tight, little butts, and perfectly molded abs...well, that hits on our insecurities. It reminds us that we are not perfect...or more realistically, not good enough for you.

Does any of this make sense?

Smile

Smile-a-Day,

I just want you to know that I'm partial to the Rubenesque but also side with the French that champagne glass sized is an excellent cup size.

I'll take a woman passionate about lovemaking over pretty window dressing anyday.

Tony

I just talked to my guy about this discussion. I like one of the analogies he gave. Imagine if your fiance's boss started giving her pricey gifts. Diamond earrings, a gorgeous necklace, a computer... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> She claims that she doesn't like him at all and there is no need to worry. The point is that (unless you are very wealthy), that will play on any sensitivies you have as a provider. You don't have the money to give her these amazing gifts. She doesn't necessarily like him, but he represents what you cannot provide. Even if you can give her pearl earrings (which are a very nice gift, indeed), you can't quite afford the diamonds...even if she doesn't need them.
You're a good provider, but there are men out there who are better providers. She's got nice boobs, but there are women out there with much nicer, voluptuous breasts...and you like to look at them.
Does that work?
Smile

I just realized my last post might be taken the wrong way, especially when addressed to someone.

It wasn't a come-on, just a statement of preference, lest anyone should think I'm making offers here at MB.

I'm sure there are some fine ladies here, but come-on, I'm still married in a legal sense, even if my wife doesn't see it the same way.

Then there is that whole covenant before God thing...

Sorry if some took my message the wrong way, back to the topic please.

Tony

No worries, Java.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

SmileADay

Wonderful comments.

You're right on about men and penis size, but the funny thing is women "protect" men's egos by not divulging if they aren't big enough. I figure I'm about average in that department. I can't do anything about it, so I don't worry about it. Now I have to admit that when my XW cheated on me it bothered me that the OM might be bigger. I don't care if he is hung like a horse anymore.

I have a very differet outlook on my relationship. I know that if my fiance wants to be with someone she is perfectly capable of doing that. I know that she wants to be with me so I do not worry about being good enough for her or that this isn't right or that isn't right. I just be myself and love her. I love her and trust her which means I can let my insecurities go and not let them screw us up. I'm not sure if that makes any sense to you.

Another point is even the perfect bodied women feel insecure. Or how about the 5'5" 115 lb 30 year old with the great body that catches her husband looking at big girls online?

As for implants, etc, I much prefer a natural girl! Make-up optional.

BTW, I'm not defending porn in these posts. It is an issue that is here to stay. Just something else couples need to deal with.

The kids in high school today have grown up with it. I would be curious to here comments from people in their early 20's.

smile,
thank 5x for that analogy about the jewles (that's what i meant about sharing insecurities and fears, and seeking to understand eachother better)......men seldom can relate to a woman sneeking porn......i guess because they can relate too well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

they tend to think i wish she was looking at porn, that would mean she had an interest in sex!
and that would be a good thing.

but, i do think they would feel differently if they were to find that she kept a whole world of it all to herself.....and she refused to share or discuss it with him.
not much different than an affair really.

Scrum, you did hit the nail on the head when you said, we all just want to feel desired by our spouse.

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

Everything that humans do can be done in an unhealthy or healthy way. Eat too much and you are a glutton with serious consequences...think too much of your appearance and you are vain, with serious consequences....think too much of your goals/beliefs and you are prideful/arrogant with serious consequences....think too much of money/possessions and you are greedy, with serious consequences,....try to avoid work/obligations/etc. too much, and you are slothful, with serious consequences

Porn is about lust, and is the unhealthy manifestation of sexual desire. Those who promote or excuse porn try to make it seem like just another healthy sexual behavior (like, umm..I dunno, whos on top, or oral sex).

Sort of like trying to say if you need 2000 calories a day, makes no difference if you get it in a balanced meal, or 2 chocolate malts... since you don't "gain" any weight, must be ok WRONG...and just cause porn isn't adultery doesn't mean it is ok.

sex is good, lust is bad.... those are the labels we use to categorize sexual focus. Porn is about lust, it is a celebration of sex for sex alone. Healthy sex is only manifested in actual procreation acts (which unfortuneately does make prostitution and promiscuity normal sort of), or in the context of a relationship...porn meets neither of these standards, and is therefore harmful. Ok, if that is so, what are the consequences.

1. Whatever resources (emotional/psychological/financial/time) are vested in consuming porn could be put to a higher order use in promoting a healthy relationship.

2. The use of porn will diminish the self-worth of your relationship partner. This is not debateable, it is an immutable psychological reality. Do I really need to explain that?

3. Porn encourages secretive and loner behavior. It seperates the user from the company of decent, healthy people. They cannot reveal their porn use because they will be shunned. This has a negative impact on ones self-worth.

4. The "business" of porn demeans people (especially women) by promoteing people selling themselves as sex objects, this is not positive affirmation of ones worth, rather a celebration of you have no worth except as an object to be used. We are all sex objects, so there is no self worth to be gained in making that your "worth". It is psychologically the same as slavery, where the slave has no value except they can work, which all can do.

This is not an ethical issue per se, it is a straightforward choice issue. Porn in itself is not wrong, it is sex, and sex is ok. But porn is an unhealthy manifestation of sexuality with no upside, and is therefore the sexual equivalent of gluttony, greed, conceit, arrogance, slothfulness.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>Scrum-what a name - just a typo away from some men's rationale about porn...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, isn't that nice and respectful?

It a RUGBY term. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Scrum,
I am not sure what you meant about most men not guessing that for a million years, can you word that a little differently. i feel like there is a thin line between respect and disrespect with porn. Like with me, i know he does it but I do not want to know when he does it. There have been times I have come home from work and seen a nasty paper towel on the computer desk, so right away I knew he watched porn and jeked off, but i feel its disrespectful to me to not clean up the mess, that drives me nuts. i do not want to know. but i watch porn too, if i need a jump start to getting in the mood or if he is not home. It used to bother me so much and I used to get very upset but now I have accepted that its a guy thing and I cannot stop it so what am I gonna do?

I think that pornography is a dynamic that is different for each marriage.

In a very general sense, there are basically 3 sorts of ways that porn plays out in a marriage.

1) Neither person approves of it, therefore they don't use it, and it is not an issue.

2) Both people approve of it and use it, and it is also not a problem.

But I believe that the vast majority of people fit into the 3rd category...

3) The husband uses it and the wife may or may not be aware of it, but if she did know, she wouldn't want him to.

To me, it doesn't really matter what the issue is. If any behaviour upsets your spouse, you need to be willing to address it and solve it if you want to have anything close to resembling a happy marriage.

I could see how I might feel insecure if my wife ordered a subscription to "Super-Human Weiner " Magazine. It seems to me that as insecure as men can be, women seem to be insecure that much more.

The only women in that situation that I don't feel particularly sorry for is ones who only throw out the odd sexual scraps every other February 29.

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Slapnuts ]</small>

Dilbert: You get a prize. I'm in my 19th year of rugby. Now as a referee much more so than a player.

Isithopeless: I believe most men would think you'd have a problem with graphic porn vs the pretty woman softcore. That is what I meant by the million years comment. I can't imagine leaving a mess or a hard evidence trail. I would almost suspect that is a "cry for help".

Slapnuts,
Unfortunuately it is much more complicated than that. What about the hapless couple who was married before the prevalence, scope and ease of access of porn today.

Better yet the couple who the husband told the wife upfront about his porn issues and the wife thought she was into it or could change him?

I see porn as a Pandora's box. You really don't know the affect until you open it and then it is too late.

Porn is another one of those things that you need to decide what your marriage is worth to you and what you are willing to sacrifice of yourself. This goes for wives and husbands. Somebody is going to have to suck it up and make some changes for the good of the marriage. Maybe the husband, maybe the wife.

Like infidelity the BS is stuck with the pain and WS is stuck with the guilt. They both suck.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Porn is about lust, and is the unhealthy manifestation of sexual desire. Those who promote or excuse porn try to make it seem like just another healthy sexual behavior (like, umm..I dunno, whos on top, or oral sex). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I excuse porn, but I don't think it's a HEALTHY sexual behavior. I do think that it has become a norm in our society. I think your list of consequences is spot on...thanks for sharing that...very well put.

I think that it's as Isithopeless put it...it's a reality. It's not going away, so how can we deal with it?
People here continuously point out that any woman (like me) who allows her man to convince her that porn can be incorporated into a marriage is fooling herself, but I still think that most women who think that it's not being incorporated without their knowledge is fooling theirselves. I'm not trying to start a war and I'm not referring to the MB population necessarily.
Whether or not it is right or wrong, healthy or demoralizing, it's reality. For me, I care more about radical honesty than whether or not he looks at porn. And in the majority of relationships, I think that's a choice we women have to make.
Now, for those of you who have achieved and maintained the perfect sex lives smothered in 100% honesty, with no porn at all, congratulations...that's a remarkable feat. But, I truly think you are a tiny minority...at least in this society.

Please note that everything I've said goes for non-addiction situations of porn use. Porn and sex addiction is a different topic altogether.

Smile

Dilbert,

Point well taken. It wasn't respectful. But it also wasn't personal in that I was taking a shot at some men's rationale about porn and not the person - and I viewed the name he chose as a deliberate red-herring about the topic so I spotted it/got it - It's all very interesting that his key point is that women aren't supposed to take their husband's viewing of porn personally, but I make a scummy comment about the rationale and someone takes it personally. It wasn't respectful and it has been edited.

Sexuality is the ultimate PERSONAL issue. It's where insecurity lies with it's deepest roots. Adequacy is not just a male issue, ok?

Scrum still hasn't addressed my flip side question to him. Does any man dare address the issue?

I'll post it a third time so you don't have to scroll back:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wives want sexual fulfillment without worrrying about doing something wrong, without the worry of trying to please him, without the same old same old.....

Most of all, wives want to feel desired and wanted by their husbands. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was a direct flip side of Scrum's rationalizing why women shouldn't take men's porn penchant/addiction personally.

I'm asking how is it NOT personal, when you take the same mentality and apply it to the same gender.

How does porn jive with the "sexual exclusivity" that should govern a marital relationship?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>Sexuality is the ultimate PERSONAL issue. It's where insecurity lies with it's deepest roots. Adequacy is not just a male issue, ok?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>Scrum still hasn't addressed my flip side question to him. Does any man dare address the issue?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, I'll take a shot at it. You won't even have to triple-dog-dare me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy some pages back:
<strong>Wives want sexual fulfillment without worrrying about doing something wrong, without the worry of trying to please him, without the same old same old.....

Most of all, wives want to feel desired and wanted by their husbands.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>This was a direct flip side of Scrum's rationalizing why women shouldn't take men's porn penchant/addiction personally.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed, it is a direct flip in the sense that you've swapped the gender-specific pronouns.

But, are you submitting that women really feel the same way about sex as men do? I challenge the basic premise that we can simply plug in pronouns representing either gender into any statement and deal accurately with how men or women feel about any topic.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>I'm asking how is it NOT personal, when you take the same mentality and apply it to the same gender.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's try an analogy here. A W likes to play Bridge. Her H plays, but doesn't really like to play all that often, so the W plays in a Bridge Club. Should he take it personally that his W plays with a different partner? Is the H going to complain and feel bad about himself personally because his W doesn't force him to play more than he wants to? Any time he wants to play Bridge, he can because his W is always ready for a good game, but she is free to play with alternate partners and he's free to go play golf with his buddies or putter around in the workshop, which he'd rather do than play Bridge all the time.

Of course, it's an analogy. RC is not nearly as PERSONAL as SF. But I think that's what it works out to for many. Then it becomes a chicken-or-the-egg thing. Which came first -- marital problems or porn? Or better, who got rejected first? I think the prevailing response to men who watch porn is that it is the source of the problem. I think it is just as often a symptom of the problem rather than the source something like the analogy -- W isn't interested in sex so the H substitutes porn and scratches his head trying to figure out why the sexually uninterested W is so uptight about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>How does porn jive with the "sexual exclusivity" that should govern a marital relationship?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On this point we'll have to agree to disagree. If my W and I decide to watch something risqué or even pornographic (and the distinction there is quite the slippery slope), it's between us (exclusively between us I might say) and perfectly acceptable.


None of this is to say that porn is a good choice for M when a W slams the door sexually enough times. I think many men decide it's the least of bad things that they might do when the iron curtain descends on their sexual relationshiph with their W. Two wrongs doesn't make a right, but lets not forget that men and porn is just as likely the second wrong as the first.