</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nelly:
<strong> "you are fat, ugly and lousy in bed!"???

because i sure wouldn't want to have sex w/ him if he talked to me like that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
would you still want to have sex w/ someone who told you that?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, let's hope few husbands would say those words out loud. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

But isn't that what most women HEAR when their husband says "yes, I use porn"? Isn't that what women THINK inside their own heads when they catch their husband using porn? Maybe not those exact words. But isn't that close to what you meant when you said "I didn't feel very sexy when my husband was using porn"? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

yeah...something like that.
i edited my last post.....see if that makes any sense to you?

i knew i wasn't fat or ugly. i knew i could be great in bed, when i felt it... i also knew i wasn't perfect and i did have a few hang ups.
i never knew what he was after....more enthusiasm, to feel like an accomplished lover...for me to let him know that.....
he didn't want to talk about that stuff.
he never asked if i had an orgasm or how i preferred to.
and i assumed he was ok w/ everything because because he always came.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But isn't that what most women HEAR when their husband says "yes, I use porn"? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've always known that guys use porn. It's something that guys do. My grandfather, father, and brother all have porn stashes. It wasn't until MB that I started "hearing" voices and feeling insecure at all.
It wasn't really until MB when I found out about sex addictions and porn addictions that I felt like I had to compete with porn or feel threatened by it.
Now, if I wasn't getting enough sex by my own standards and he was using porn, then the voices would kick in. I'd think there was something wrong with me, something I was doing or not doing to make him unhappy, unfulfilled. But, as is, I can't really complain.

Smile

i pretty much knew that all guys looked at porn.
i had guy friends and brothers, i knew they looked at magazines.
i knew my H had them when we first met....i figured he masturbated to them, but i didn't give that much thought.

it was the feeling of him looking for SF elsewhere that upset me and that i didn't understand. i was there and willing and i would much rather have sex w/ him than masturbate. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ....if i was going to look elsewhere.....it would be because i was interested in someone else, so i was confused by that.

and yes, once we were married and living togetherand having sex regularly....... and every once in awhile i would catch him w/ it....it did make me feel a little insecure about my sex- appeal. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by holdingontoit:
<strong>Guy comes home. Feels like crap. Wants to medicate his "bad day". At this point, some guys go to the gym and work out. Some turn to alcohol or drugs. And some ask their wife for sex. Sex is a VERY powerful transquilizer, especially for men. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Holding, this is really an interesting thought for me, and makes clearer what my H has often tried to tell me (but it's just such a foreign concept for me, I have a hard time getting it!).

For him, sex is truly the cure for just about anything. Bad day at work, not feeling well physically, want to celebrate a good thing? Sex just makes him feel better. Since I tend to be one of those "everything needs to be just right" this has been incomprehensible for me, although I usually go along for the ride.

Thanks for this analogy.

Nelly - great comments and you are, again, to be commended for making it appealing and inviting for your H to open up. If you remember, I ask you several months ago if you would be willing to counsel my wife and you said "yes". She could learn much from you.

Smile - You have a maturity much beyond your years. I still don't agree with you on the porn issue but you do make logical points as to why a man would turn to porn when rejected by W. Some men to turn alcohol/drugs, some to gambling, some to adultery, and so on. I, out of my youthful ignorance, turned into a workaholic and sportsaholic.

KS41 - This is just one of many differences between men and women that the social engineers and feminists refuse to grasp. Men have God-designed physiological makeups and women have separate ones. Neither is wrong - that's why we are so unique. Men and women can complement each other and that's the grand design by God at creation. Feminists want to make men women, and women men. Pop phychologists exhort men to discover their "feminine side" and women to discover their "maleness side". Doesn't work! Isn't it fulfilling and healthy when we accept each other's uniqueness, communicate, and have fun with each other?

Hold - great insights, as usual!

"i pretty much knew that all guys looked at porn.
i had guy friends and brothers, i knew they looked at magazines.
i knew my H had them when we first met....i figured he masturbated to them, but i didn't give that much thought.

it was the feeling of him looking for SF elsewhere that upset me and that i didn't understand. i was there and willing and i would much rather have sex w/ him than masturbate. ....if i was going to look elsewhere.....it would be because i was interested in someone else, so i was confused by that.

and yes, once we were married and living togetherand having sex regularly....... and every once in awhile i would catch him w/ it....it did make me feel a little insecure about my sex- appeal."

NELLY...this is my life exactly, too....

I just wish that, as holding explained and KS commented on, that my H would always at least *ask* me first, rather than withdraw.

But anyway...yes, it always always always makes me feel insecure. And less attractive.

On a happier note, these posts on this thread have been helpful to me.

aaa

I feel a need to make a clarifying post here re "guys" and porn. Males are visual, and have a stronger visual response to sexual images than women, no one is arguing that...However, the notion that guys grow up and have secret stashes of porn, and that is "normal" (ergo ok) is balderdash. That somehow porn itself is ok, it is just that when one gets married it is a poja issue re the wife feelings is more balderdash. Healthy males DO NOT use porn, do not need porn, and recognize the usage of porn for the psychological dysfunction it is.

"Needing" porn, or recreational use of porn, is identical to trying to normalize using drugs (anything you don't medically need that alters your body/brain chemistry), alcohol, smoking, promiscuity, SD (sado/masochism), etc. No one "needs" any of this stuff, and it all diminishes/injures the user.

There are LOTS of males who did not collect/view porn growing up, that rejected efforts by other males to involve them, realizing it was not a good thing. And who do not, and will not, use porn as adults for any reason. Has every male seen a picture (porn, not academic or art) of a naked woman (the world owes a great debt to hugh hefner...barf)...probably. If a male happens acoss a piece of porn laying (or displayed) about, will he look at it....probably, but that is not nearly the same thing as actively pursuing, and using porn....healthy males do not do so. (for all the reasons I listed elsewhere).

As a young male (who never had the "talk" with anyone qualified to do so), I was clueless re girls and sexuality. I had opportunity to view playboy (someone always seems to have one....probably often from their screwed up fathers judging by the female observations in this thread), and I did look, it was interesting, mysterious, and caused funny feelings. But it also felt dangerous, and I had no desire to pursue porn, or accumulate a stash, nor did I associate with those who did....but I was still interested in girls..alot.

As a young adult male I had occassion to be persuaded by my peers to go see a movie...a XXX movie, at the last momement I demurred. Another time I was persuaded to go to a bar featuring women, turns out they danced naked, and performed sex acts...it was titillating, but also made me sick inside....was an awful experience. needless to say I was done with those friends...and my resolve firmed to purposefully avoid porn and it's ilk. Later I came to understand the true nature of porn, why it is unhealthy, and avoiding it now is no more difficult than resisting drugs. As my marriage failed the last 5-7 years had little physical interaction, I felt no need to medicate with porn...it is not something you have to do, it is a choice. We would have no problem identifying someone who medicates with alcohol as an unhealthy coping mechanism, porn is no different.

So for those women who have been confused about porn because father, brothers, boy-friends used it, so you think it is a male thing....it is not. It is a highly destructive (psychologically) behavior, with no upside, and all the males you know have been diminished by it...and reveal something about themselves as well. There are substantial numbers of males who have no need for porn, don't use it, never did (or after an experience or two in the confusion of youth, realized it's danger and stopped), out there. Do not accept porn in your life....if you feel a need to settle (as do those who continue to remain with alcoholics) then understand your marriage will never amount to much (in a relationship sense, your partner is a psychological cripple, and can't hold up their end). Otherwise IMO porn, is one of dealbreakers....as is drugs, alcohol, gambling, abuse, an neglect. I would like to add smoking to that list (cause it insures your spouse, and maybe yourself, will die prematurely) but I won't. IMO marriage should be a place to be the best you can be, and help each other accordingly, not a place to settle and visit your dysfunctions on someone.

sufdb, you wrote:

"Needing" porn, or recreational use of porn, is identical to trying to normalize using drugs (anything you don't medically need that alters your body/brain chemistry), alcohol, smoking, promiscuity, SD (sado/masochism), etc. No one "needs" any of this stuff, and it all diminishes/injures the user

I have long felt that way about porn. it's good to see someone verbalize it. Your saying it doesn't solve my issues, but it's still gratifying to read

aaa

i agree w/ most of what you said there, sufdb.
it's not healthy and it's not ok...and it sucks that the world keeps telling wifes this is just how it is. men are visual. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

but, reality is...it's out there and many husbands/fathers were brought up to think it's fine and dandy and thier right. they don't even understand it.

i don't think i am so special for trying to understand this and deal w/ it......i'm just getting trhrough my life.

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

Sufdb - You bring up some very accurate viewpoints from the psychological aspect. As a Christian I view things more spiritually from a Biblical perspective. This is one area where I am in complete agreement with you. The spiritual and psychological views have common ground here. I view porn pursuance, like any other "sin" issue, as sin brought about by the choices an individual makes. Psychology treats addictions as diseases, we treat addictions as sin with the need for repentance and deliverance. Either way, the effects of addictions are destructive and therefore porn is indeed a 21st Century plague.

Nelly,

It's the conclusions...all wrong....you jump to. Asking a question in a polite manner, even if it's totally off base, is perfectly fine. Agreeing to disagree is fine. Your posts tend to "bait" others (I've checked your posting history) instead of READING what's been posted and begin a dialogue.

Hope I've been able to open your eyes for your own success and well being.

To those who've taken an opinion about my conclusions concerning Porn....just read all the women's posts and the problems it's created. While I've not looked little...already gone into that...I don't have to SEE something to form a valid, accurate opinion. I've never SEEN E.Coli but I know what damage it can do. I've never SEEN cancer cells but I know what damage it does.

I've never experienced or seen child abuse to know it's damaging......and so on.

There are many ways of learning about a subject without accuately experiencing it. Those who "defend" Porn....hope you get the help you so deperately need and your eyes are open to the truth.

Best Wishes,

Pegasus

[edited for spelling]

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: Pegasus959 ]</small>

hey pegusus, was wondering what happened to you.

seems we stole your thread.

didn't mean to bait you at all.....you are right, was making assumptions before asking enough questions.
so, i apologize for that.

perhaps you could fill us in w/ some more details.
what is it you really wanted to talk about when you started this thread?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
However, the notion that guys grow up and have secret stashes of porn, and that is "normal" (ergo ok) is balderdash.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who ever said that because something is normal (i.e. a "norm) that it is something good, ok, wonderful, necessary, etc.?
I consider porn "normal" because...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had opportunity to view playboy (someone always seems to have one....probably often from their screwed up fathers judging by the female observations in this thread)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...because it is everywhere. Not because it is good, but because it has become a norm. I don't determine what is normal and neither do all of the anti-porn people...society determines what is a norm. In our society, the media plays an incredible role in what it is a norm.
So, when I say something is normal, I'm not saying it's good or that I like it, but rather that we must understand that as long as our society presents porn as a norm (for crying out loud, porn is sold in convenience stores and book stores! That's horrible, but it is a norm), we will have to address it as a norm...something that is everywhere, commonplace, a plague if you must.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Healthy males DO NOT use porn, do not need porn, and recognize the usage of porn for the psychological dysfunction it is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, because it is a norm, this statement doesn't settle well with me...except the part about "needing" porn. By using the word "need", this conversation turns to one about addiction, and that is not the same as most men who just get their kicks from porn on occasion, but could go without it the same way I can go without MB.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
"Needing" porn, or recreational use of porn, is identical to trying to normalize using drugs </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed...NEEDING anything can be unhealthy. Most men do not NEED porn, they enjoy it.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">. No one "needs" any of this stuff, and it all diminishes/injures the user.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are misusing the word NEED. I'm a happier person when I get to endulge myself in certain hobbies. I don't NEED them, but I enjoy them even if at other people's expense. By expense, I mean that literally. Because I enjoy photography, I spend money on cameras, printers, software, memory cards and other accessories, printer paper, ink, etc. I could choose a less costly hobby, but that one makes me happy. I don't NEED it to be happy and healthy, but it does make me happy and thereby healthier. My photography hobby could become a danger to my relationship if I started spending TOO much money or TOO much time doing it. It could be far more dangerous to our relationship than porn if it began having a negative effect on our RC time or detracted from the time I'd normally spend meeting his ENs.
But, it doesn't...it hasn't. Neither, has his porn use detracted from my ENs. Because my ENs are all met to the Nth degree, he could be carrying on looking at porn without me ever knowing because it isn't hurting our relationship (then I'd take issue with H&O)...and I think that happens in a lot of relationships. However, if he started abusing that "hobby", thereby taking time away from meeting my needs, spending too much money, or in this case negatively influencing our future children, then we'd have an issue and we'd discuss it. But, used in moderation without detracting from his ability to meet my needs, it's no more evil or unhealthy than me reading some of the horror stories on MB.
Porn, alcohol, caffeine, sports, and all other hobbies all have the same potential to be huge problems in a relationship if both spouse's needs are not being met. It's the user that has the potential to misuse or NEED something. Don't get me wrong, I think that porn as a norm is ugly...it shouldn't be so highly promoted, encouraged, nor convenient. I say this mostly because young males don't usually have the self-control necessary to keep porn from becoming an addiction of some sort (and young women think putting out is cool). That's why alcohol isn't served to teenagers. I think what our society makes of porn is disgusting. There's actually a reality series coming out called "who wants to be a porn star" or something along those lines. Young women compete to be the sexiest sex object in the country! So sad. This leads me to believe that porn is having just as negative of an effect on young women as it is on young men.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do not accept porn in your life....if you feel a need to settle (as do those who continue to remain with alcoholics) then understand your marriage will never amount to much (in a relationship sense, your partner is a psychological cripple, and can't hold up their end). Otherwise IMO porn, is one of dealbreakers....as is drugs, alcohol, gambling, abuse, an neglect. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's a rather huge statement. You're saying that all marriages that accept porn (even if both couples are privy to it and enjoy it) will fail? I have no problem with porn being a dealbreaker in a marriage (hopefully, that is determined and discussed before the vows), but that is a personal choice and does not determine a marriage's success in any definitive way. When the couple does not work together to deal with problems and determine boundaries (on any and all matters), then you've got a recipe for disaster.
I've rambled enough. I think you have every right to create boundaries in your life, but just because you have a boundary that works in your marriage, doesn't mean that it is a necessary boundary in all marriages. IMO, a couple should be far more concerned with meeting ENs and avoiding LBs than every little thing that could or could not become problematic in the relationship.

Btw, Nelly and HPK, thank you for your kind words. I appreciate that, knowing full well that you may both completely disagree with my standpoint.

Respectfully,
Smile

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

Smile, let me clarify normal, we use the word differently.

It is normal to be mugged at 2 am if you go about waving a wad of cash in a crime ridden area of the city....however, that does not make it ok, or something we should just accept or adjust too....even if it is "normal".

If you are just checking the tempratures in a hospital, 98.6 may not be the norm, maybe it is 99.6....however, that is not ok, acceptable, or to be lived with....it is to be combated until the normal human temperature average of 98.6 is achieved.

My use of the word normal in medical/psychological/emotional discussions is about the absolute well-being of the individual....not what may be "normal" in their enviroment. I do not care if porn is wide-spread, and therefore "normal"...it is plague, and a scourge on the well-being of all who partake.....just like drugs, including the supposed ok recreational use of marijuana, or alcohol....it is all UNHEALTHY, ABNORNAL, and to be resisted at all cost. Even if just one individual in a group of hundreds is not using porn, he is normal, the rest are abnormal, and need to stop.

Does that make my position more clear?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Even if just one individual in a group of hundreds is not using porn, he is normal, the rest are abnormal, and need to stop.
Does that make my position more clear? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I disagree. If one in a hundred men does not use porn, that one who doesn't is the outlier, the abnormal one. Abnormal in this case is not bad, but it does mean that the issue has to be addressed in a different way. Calling the porn users all psychologically deranged won't get you nearly as far because you are alienating the majority. I think you make some very good arguments about the negative effects that porn can have on people lacking in self control and morals. I think you make some very good general comments on the potential for harm (thus abstinence from porn is the safest path). However, I think the approach you are taking that claims all porn users are psychologically unhealthy, unstable, or in some other way diseased will keep you from getting your positive message to the larger population...because porn use is a norm, albeit a sad and pathetic one in this society.

Smile

porn has been around since man (or woman) learned how to make dung into watercolor and painted it on cave walls-

get over it-

by today's standards, most of what was painted on those walls-plus, their ceramic artifacts- would be considered porn. and yes, it was to excite sexual urges: in order to reproduce. people used to think that was a good thing, at one time in history.

ya know what?

the human species is thus far not extinct. so, it can't be that destructive.

people just think that everyone has to have the same ideas and values as they do- and anything that differs is wrong... these people are arrogant.

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: misscallaneous ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SmileADay:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Even if just one individual in a group of hundreds is not using porn, he is normal, the rest are abnormal, and need to stop.
Does that make my position more clear? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I disagree. If one in a hundred men does not use porn, that one who doesn't is the outlier, the abnormal one. Abnormal in this case is not bad, but it does mean that the issue has to be addressed in a different way.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I usually don't post on the porn threads because quite honestly the fixation of it on the EN forum makes my skin crawl. I just couldn't let that comment go by without a few of my own. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

A definition of abnormal is deviant ..I wouldn't think that a person who does NOT look at porn is a deviant...no matter how MANY others are doing it. That just isn't a good argument.

It is like I have told my kids... Just because EVERYONE else is doing it...and you choose to NOT do it...it doesn't make you ABNORMAL.

That analogy just doesn't set right with me.

Throw 100 criminals together...99 continue in criminal activity...and 1 chooses not to...and the one that isn't ...is the ABNORMAL (deviant) one??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

You would be better served to have used the word DIFFERENT. The use of the word abnormal isn't fitting.

JMHO
committed

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Throw 100 criminals together...99 continue in criminal activity...and 1 chooses not to...and the one that isn't ...is the ABNORMAL (deviant) one???
You would be better served to have used the word DIFFERENT. The use of the word abnormal isn't fitting.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I chose the word ABNORMAL because that is the word being used in the discussion. I'm sorry you don't like it. ABNORMALor deviant is not defined by being wrong, bad, negative, etc. Many people choose to make that association.
All of my friends could smoke pot, but if I don't, I deviate from that pattern or norm within the crowd. If you want to get scientific about it, when you define normal, you should also define your population that you're describing because what is normal depends on who and what you are referring to.
Abnormal = not the norm.
Definition of normal:
SYLLABICATION: nor·mal
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: nôrml     KEY
ADJECTIVE: 1. Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard, pattern, level, or type; typical: normal room temperature; one's normal weight; normal diplomatic relations.

This is the definition of normal I'm using. I understand if people are using a different definition and I was simply stating that I think "normal" is being misused in my opinion. That doesn't mean I'm right, but my perspective may be valuable to some who wish to be more effective at getting across to others who share my opinion.

If you put 100 people on a secluded island and 99 of them eat grass and leaves while 1 eats the scrumptious pork feasts running around on four legs, does that mean that the carnivore is deviant, wrong, diseased, etc.? No, but he is abnormal because the pattern, trend, norm, predictable behavior is to not eat meat and the grass-eaters are going to find him abnormal and likely disgusting. But, in our society, vegetarians are still a minority, though one that is growing and becoming more and more of a norm. I find them strange for not enjoying the juicy, delectable cows and pigs. But, if I approach vegetarians and call them all weird, abnormal, or deviant, no one is going to listen to me because it has become a norm...normal.

Growing up, I was more mature than my classmates. I didn't experiment with smoking or drugs. I didn't wear gobs of make-up or go to the bathroom in groups. I became a prodigy saxophonist because I practiced a lot while no one else around me did. I was very abnormal, but I don't see that as a bad thing. I had the opportunity to become more successful than those who cared only about their appearance and popularity.

So, the reason I've taken this approach is because your arguments against porn will be better received by a larger population if you take an approach that doesn't alienate the users and acceptors.
Does this make sense?
I'm not discussing the legitimacy of porn so much as a better way to communicate your views so as to get your point across without sounding arrogant, stubborn, or...abnormal.

Smile

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>