smile... I don't determine what is normal and neither do all of the anti-porn people...society determines what is a norm.

sufdb...Society plays a role in cultural norms, but has nothing to say about well-being, those are scientific norms, and immutable.

smile... In our society, the media plays an incredible role in what it is a norm.
So, when I say something is normal, I'm not saying it's good or that I like it, but rather that we must understand that as long as our society presents porn as a norm (for crying out loud, porn is sold in convenience stores and book stores! That's horrible, but it is a norm), we will have to address it as a norm...something that is everywhere, commonplace, a plague if you must.

sufdb....Not sure what describing norm that way means in action...the message is still the same, don't do it. But if your point is people will resist the message by saying see, everyone does it, must be ok....then I agree that happens, and presents a certain political reality in combatting norm...but in that case, all the more reason to talk about porn as the scourge it is, and not pussyfoot around about it...as we do here sometimes. In the end the test (of anything) is whether an individual will make healthy choices, if they don't, there are consequences, one of which (in this case) is diminishing your relationships, and quite possibly losing your spouse. In such a case, the leaveing spouse can seek out a healthier individual, and enjoy that consequence....while the porn user can enjoy their porn, somehow I don't think they will be all that happy...ya know?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Healthy males DO NOT use porn, do not need porn, and recognize the usage of porn for the psychological dysfunction it is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">smile...So, because it is a norm, this statement doesn't settle well with me...except the part about "needing" porn. By using the word "need", this conversation turns to one about addiction, and that is not the same as most men who just get their kicks from porn on occasion, but could go without it the same way I can go without MB.

sufdb...I differ. If you can't stop it is an addiction type behavior....if you won't stop (but could) then you are an unworthy marital partner (because you are unsafe, and obviously an idiot)...black and white smile, no gray here....zero tolerance issue.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Needing" porn, or recreational use of porn, is identical to trying to normalize using drugs </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">smile...Agreed...NEEDING anything can be unhealthy. Most men do not NEED porn, they enjoy it.

sufdb...I disagree, it is an addiction most often. I suppose psychopaths enjoy murdering people (some say they do), they aren't addicted, but it still is not ok, and they are not safe people. Porn users are not physically dangerous, but they are psychologically dysfunctional, and that makes them unsafe in relationships...and undesireable as friends either IMO.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">. No one "needs" any of this stuff, and it all diminishes/injures the user.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sad...I think you are misusing the word NEED. I'm a happier person when I get to endulge myself in certain hobbies. I don't NEED them, but I enjoy them even if at other people's expense. By expense, I mean that literally. Because I enjoy photography, I spend money on cameras, printers, software, memory cards and other accessories, printer paper, ink, etc. I could choose a less costly hobby, but that one makes me happy. I don't NEED it to be happy and healthy, but it does make me happy and thereby healthier.

sufdb...If you pursue your hobby obsessively, or in lieu of other more important uses of your finite resources (fianncial, or psychological), you indeed have issues needing resolution. However, the mere choice of activities which express your creativity and such is a good thing, it enhances you....porn is a passive activity with no redeeming value at all. You are mixing up obsessive behavior (whcih is always undesireable despite the obsession) with activities that are inherently unhealthy. Photography is not inherently unhealty, porn is.


smile... Neither, has his porn use detracted from my ENs. Because my ENs are all met to the Nth degree, he could be carrying on looking at porn without me ever knowing because it isn't hurting our relationship (then I'd take issue with H&O)...and I think that happens in a lot of relationships.

sufdb...And he could be smoking pot, or torturing small dogs without your knowledge while meeting your EN's....so what? He would still be screwed up, and sooner or later a price will be paid....and extremely high price. Your standard of how you feel is irrelevant to his unhealthy behavior, my arguments are about the damage to the user, not how well they can carry there booze in your eyes...do you see? True, he is holding his booze better than some, assuming you are a normal female and happy...as well as assuming you are not in denial...but that really means nothing except you can justify (to yourself) being more tolerant...but in fact you are simply enabling his unhealthy behavior...why would you do that?

smile...However, if he started abusing that "hobby", thereby taking time away from meeting my needs, spending too much money, or in this case negatively influencing our future children, then we'd have an issue and we'd discuss it.

sufdb...Because then it affects you directly, that is selfish response. Let's look at smoking, say for the moment somehow the smoke is able to do so without directly impacting you....would you be ok with that? Or would you risk conflict by trying to make him quit? Myself, I would risk conflict, up to and including divorcing a spouse who would not quit smoking, for their benefit. Make the cost high enough, and most will change unhealthy behavior (witness the many spouses who suddenly find out they can lose weight afterall, when the consequence is losing their spouse if they don't). True, a spouse may not change an unhealthy behavior, but IMO that says all one needs to know about their safety and worthiness as a marital partner...

smile...Porn, alcohol, caffeine, sports, and all other hobbies all have the same potential to be huge problems in a relationship if both spouse's needs are not being met.

sufdb...Smile you are attmepting to turn this into a porn is ok if used properly thread. I understand your motivation. If you become convinced porn use is always bad in and of itself, you are confronted with a serious moral dilemma re your marriage, and your how you interct with your spouse. My position is porn usage is always bad, and harms the person using it in a myriad of ways, as well as possible collateral damage. I have explained why that is so, you will believe me or not, and reap the consequences therein (good or bad depending on whether porn usage is bad or not). Be sure you are not letting too much bias influence your analytical efforts.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do not accept porn in your life....if you feel a need to settle (as do those who continue to remain with alcoholics) then understand your marriage will never amount to much (in a relationship sense, your partner is a psychological cripple, and can't hold up their end). Otherwise IMO porn, is one of dealbreakers....as is drugs, alcohol, gambling, abuse, an neglect. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">smile...That's a rather huge statement.

sufdb...Yes it is, it was supposed to be.

smile...You're saying that all marriages that accept porn (even if both couples are privy to it and enjoy it) will fail?

sufdb...I din't say fail (as in divorce, I presume), I said not amount to much... meaning their will be very little real intimacy, porn usage is huge impediment to intimacy. But I understand marriages vary widely, and can be satisfactory enough at shallow levels of intimacy...or that even depth is not wanted anyways, just the convienience of marital lifestyle, and procreation. Perhaps the best word is diminish, to simply observe porn usage diminishes relatioships, there is no exceptions.

smile...I have no problem with porn being a dealbreaker in a marriage (hopefully, that is determined and discussed before the vows), but that is a personal choice and does not determine a marriage's success in any definitive way.

sufdb...Everything both parties do affects marriage, some things more some less...porn usage is huge....It is indeed a personal choice (even if both choose), much like taking drugs is a personal choice, or consuming alcohol....it has nothing to do with enhancing a couple or a marriage, it is a personal selfish orientation.

smile...I think you have every right to create boundaries in your life, but just because you have a boundary that works in your marriage, doesn't mean that it is a necessary boundary in all marriages.

sufdb...Psychological principles cannot be picked and chosen smile, they affect everyone without exception, and one ignores these principles at their own peril. Porn is not a boundary issue, it is a mental health issue. How one reacts to porn usuage in a marriage is a boundary issue...and IMO that boundar is don't let the door hit you in the butt.

Hope that clarify's some more my position on porn.

I think sufdb's point is not far off target. But needs to be put in perspective.

Porn, at its core, is not the most noble or admirable activity. It is clearly a vice. Like smoking and drinking and gambling and "recreational" drug use and extra-marital sex.

Each person has to make a decision about whether and the extent to which they will indulge in these vices. And each person has to decide whether they will enter into and maintain relationships with people who do so. Different people will come to different conclusions.

I think most of us can agree these behaviors shouldn't be encouraged. And use of them "to excess" should be actively discouraged. Even if we cannot agree on what "to excess" means with respect to each activity.

Prohibition of any or all of these has been tried on a society-wide level at various times. Prohibition tends to fail. People find ways to obtain access to their vice(s) of choice. And many of these attempts at prohibition create negative impact on third parties that are arguably worse than the activity being prohibited.

Telling someone else that they absolutely positively shouldn't engage in any of these vices, or maintain relationships with anyone who does, strikes me as being along the lines of prohibition. It MAY work to prevent contact with that particular vice. But it does have other impact.

That doesn't mean that there isn't risk involved when one indulges in these vices. Or maintains a relationship with someone who does. But it means there is clearly a cost involved in cuttign off all contact with anyone involved with that vice.

Not everyone who smoked dies early of cancer or stroke or heart diease. Not everyone who gambles recreationally destroys their family's finances. Not everyone who drinks "socially" drives drunk or becomes an alcoholic. So, just as there is a risk that marrying someone who gambles will turn out to be a mistake, so there is a risk that refusing to date someone who gambles will turn out to be overly cautious.

It is hard to find a partner with a good "fit". To refuse relationships with anyone who indulges in any vice will severely limit one's pool of potential mates. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that someone who doesn't smoke or drink or gamble won't someday take up one of those nasty habits. Perhaps it is less risky to marry someone who has a good track record of keeping their vices under control than to take a chance that a "vice virgin" will be able to resist temptation forever?

So I return (I know, I know, like a broken record - and what phrase are we going to use when there isn't anyone left who remembers what a broken record sounds like? - but I digress) to the point I have made previously.

As Smileaday points out, porn use is rampant in our society. So there are gong to be women who discover that their husband is using porn. What should they do?

Well, my advice would be, react as you would if you caught your husband smoking or drinking or gambling after he promised he wouldn't. You may be angry or hurt or disappointed. It may destroy your trust in him. But you probably wouldn't take it personally quite as personally as when the vice you discover is porn. No? Am I wrong about that?

If someone caught her husband smoking, would she suddenly feel fat or ugly or less sexually attractive? Would she think it was somehow her fault that he chose to smoke? Probably not.

I am not saying it is a GOOD thing that a husband uses porn. I am just trying to help people think about it in a way that makes it easier to validate and deal with it constructively rather than get into a vicious cycle of blame and guilt and resentment and disconnect.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Hope that clarify's some more my position on porn. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, that does help. There were some things in there I misinterpreted. Especially the comment about whether porn use will always result in failure in marriage. I agree that it could consistently result in lower intimacy, thus diminishing the quality of the marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb....Not sure what describing norm that way means in action...the message is still the same, don't do it. But if your point is people will resist the message by saying see, everyone does it, must be ok....then I agree that happens, and presents a certain political reality in combatting norm...but in that case, all the more reason to talk about porn as the scourge it is, and not pussyfoot around about it...as we do here sometimes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was exactly what I was getting at and I think the aggressive approach will reach out to some people while alienating others. I'm not suggesting you should pussyfoot around the issue. All of your strong statments about the negative impact of porn are well-thought out and well presented up until you label people as damaged goods for looking at porn. If your intent is to convince wives that their porn-using husbands need to change, you're doing a decent job. But, if your intent is to reach out to porn users and say, "hey, check this info out...you might want to reconsider your behavior," then calling them sickly individuals won't do much. I think you should keep your focus on the porn itself rather than labeling and condemning the users so much.

I'm with you on the whole smoking issue. And I'm learning more about how I should approach that issue through this conversation than I expected. I think smokers are disgusting. How can they actually choose to destroy their health, diminish their quality of life, and put me and those I love at risk while stinking up the joint? I immediately judge smokers as bad people for making that choice. I could never live with someone who chooses to do that to their bodies. And I see the correlation you are making to porn use.
But, smoking is a norm...a pattern, trend, etc. Smokers are not deviants. My statement that smokers are disgusting won't be well received by the wonderful MBers here who smoke. They'll immediately see me as rude, arrogant, and controlling. They see themselves as good people, good parents, husbands, wives, sons, daughters, workers, etc...and they probably are. But, they won't give a darn about the things I have to say about smoking because I've alienated myself. Now, if I could get enough people to jump on my bandwagon and run around smoker-bashing to the extreme, there might be a positive effect (positive through my eyes), but chances are even that would cause the smokers to become more annoyed and withdraw. I have a better chance at making my point by rehashing the dangers of smoking than belittling the smokers. That way, I can stick to the facts and not be wrongly judged for my own personal views.
Do you see what I'm getting at?

Smile

all vices are not created equal... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Nice effort holding, and make some valid points about reactions and such...there are different aspects to consider in this issue. Myself, I have been mostly addressing the porn is really ok, just misunderstood, and wifey should just accept/adapt part of the issue...hence the heavy handed approach....anything less suggests this is not as serious as it really is....sodom and gommorah come to mind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


I guess the issue is where does one draw the zero tolerance line. Would we be advising the spouse of a heroin user to find a way to live with it? Probably not. But we may find ourselves advising someone who drinks to excess on occassion, to adapt and live with it...recreational gambling, hmm.... the occasional trip to the slots seems fairly bengign...that's the point holding, all vices are not equal....IMO zero tolerance re porn usage is the way to go....there are not enough potential "good" things about someone to offset porn use....so I "preach" zero tolerance, I think the consequences or associateing with a porn user are not much different than a heroin user, or chronic alcoholic.

interesting point, Holding.

i felt just as disconected and hurt when my husband lied to me about drinking and smoking and other independant behaviour......and, actually, yes...it did make me question my sex-appeal...or atleast HIS attraction to me.... and commitment to our relationship.

somehow, when i found out about him sneeking porn.........it just felt more like a slap in the face. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

just some info if any guys out there are wondering about what your wife feels...instead of justifying it all away as "her problem".

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong>Myself, I have been mostly addressing the porn is really ok, just misunderstood, and wifey should just accept/adapt part of the issue ...

IMO zero tolerance re porn usage is the way to go .... there are not enough potential "good" things about someone to offset porn use .... so I "preach" zero tolerance, I think the consequences or associateing with a porn user are not much different than a heroin user, or chronic alcoholic. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess where I have problems is in thinking that there isn't anything "helpful" about porn use. I don't like porn. I agree there are many bad things about it. And porn does harm to both the user and those around him. It is like a drug that has harmful side effects. But I don't want anyone suffering from this to ignore the "effective" aspect of porn.

If your husband is using porn to self-medicate. As a crutch. To deal with an unpleasant reality. Or to hide from it. The porn may well be accomplishing its task. Asking him to dump the porn cold turkey has a significant risk of failure. Because it does nothing to address the underlying anxiety that is triggering the porn use.

So porn may well be a BAD coping strategy. But the solution isn't to leave your husband with NO coping strategy. If you want him to be enthusiastic about changing his behavior, you would be wise to help him find a BETTER coping strategy.

What that will be depends on each person's situation. And what is causing their anxiety.

Which is where I get back to Smileaday's point. Calling your husband sick and deviant and sinful is unlikely to help him cope with whatever is driving him to use porn. More likely it will make him feel even worse about himself and more in need of a crutch. Making even harder the wife's job of helping him implement a new coping strategy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb....Not sure what describing norm that way means in action...the message is still the same, don't do it. But if your point is people will resist the message by saying see, everyone does it, must be ok....then I agree that happens, and presents a certain political reality in combatting norm...but in that case, all the more reason to talk about porn as the scourge it is, and not pussyfoot around about it...as we do here sometimes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">smile...This was exactly what I was getting at and I think the aggressive approach will reach out to some people while alienating others. I'm not suggesting you should pussyfoot around the issue. All of your strong statments about the negative impact of porn are well-thought out and well presented up until you label people as damaged goods for looking at porn. If your intent is to convince wives that their porn-using husbands need to change, you're doing a decent job.

sufdb...I am with you, and I am aware of the points you make. Indeed I adjust my message as needed re my immediate goal and audience. For the moment my goal is not to reach any porn users (who are certainly lurking), but to enable/encourage women to take a tough stand. I have status to do that because I am male, the message is much less compelling from a female. I probably have gone a bit over the top in defining porn users as low-life losers without redepmtion. I suppose some can maintain a semblance of worthiness (as is your H apparently)....My outrage is of two minds...the first is how can people be so incredibly ingnorant not to realize they are killing themself, and those in their lives with this porn usage (much like alcohol abusers), the other is an aggressive (male behavior <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) to any male who thinks they can defend their usage as a good healthy activity that enhances themselves and their relationships...(as opposed to those who understand it is a vice, and they really should stop, but just can't seem too). I have a special place of contempt and anger towards those who promote activities that demean and diminish human beings (you should see me go off on racists, or misogynists). I suppose I should be more temperate, but hey, I'm not, I have my hot buttons...and porn is one of them.

smile...But, if your intent is to reach out to porn users and say, "hey, check this info out...you might want to reconsider your behavior," then calling them sickly individuals won't do much. I think you should keep your focus on the porn itself rather than labeling and condemning the users so much.

sufdb...I agree, chastisment accepted. Indeed were I actually addressing an audience of porn users I would be using a very different approach.

smile...I'm with you on the whole smoking issue. And I'm learning more about how I should approach that issue through this conversation than I expected. I think smokers are disgusting. How can they actually choose to destroy their health, diminish their quality of life, and put me and those I love at risk while stinking up the joint?

sufdb...Preaching to the choir. But ya know, most of the smokers I know are well aware of this, properly remorseful (just addicted), try to accomodate, wish they could quit..etc.

smile...I immediately judge smokers as bad people for making that choice.

sufdb...I do too, sort of...but first wait to see if they are obnoxious about "their" choice. If they are just addicted, I guess I am willing to be understanding, but they need to be trying to quit...ya know?

smile...But, smoking is a norm...a pattern, trend, etc. Smokers are not deviants.

sufdb...I am not sure where deviant came in. I don't think porn usage is deviant per se (but it may be, and often is), I just think porn users are psychologically crippled and make unsafe relationship partners, and promote zero tolerance from everyone who has contact with them.

smile...My statement that smokers are disgusting won't be well received by the wonderful MBers here who smoke.

sufdb...I dunno, this is a bright bunch, and I am sure most of the smokers know they are disgusting (in this regard). Doesn't make them bad people though. Nor is a porn user a bad person (although they might be, and more chance they are than one who is not IMO).

smile...They'll immediately see me as rude, arrogant, and controlling. They see themselves as good people, good parents, husbands, wives, sons, daughters, workers, etc...and they probably are. But, they won't give a darn about the things I have to say about smoking because I've alienated myself.

sufdb...well smile, maybe maybe not. But then again everything that needs to be said about smoking has already been said, so reaction is probably more along the lines of ho hum. But yeah, run about getting in all the smokers faces, and someone will run out of patience and their decorum slip.

smile...Now, if I could get enough people to jump on my bandwagon and run around smoker-bashing to the extreme, there might be a positive effect (positive through my eyes), but chances are even that would cause the smokers to become more annoyed and withdraw. I have a better chance at making my point by rehashing the dangers of smoking than belittling the smokers.

sufdb...yep. But don't underestimate the judicious usage of outrage as a modification technique. Especially when you observe small children bathed in smoke...and you point out vigorously to the smoker they are killing them.

smile...Do you see what I'm getting at?

sufdb...yes smile, I got your point, nicely done.

agreed again holding, you are doing a fine job of illustrating how to go about dealing with the revelation of porn usage. Lest their be some misunderstanding, I am not advocateing you file for divorce the moment you become aware of a spouse's porn usage...I would be in a agreement with holdings point that one needs to find out why...but the goal should be absolutely clear, the porn must stop, or (IMO) the marriage will end.

Re your plug for porn as a "drug" albeit a dangerous drug having some therapeutic effect. Sure, I agree, but such things are administered under very controlled conditons and monitored by trained personel....heck morphine is nothing but heroin, and I concur with the therapeutic use of marijuana. I am not in agreement with self-medicateing with porn, the porn user should be seeking professional help.

holding....Which is where I get back to Smileaday's point. Calling your husband sick and deviant and sinful is unlikely to help him cope with whatever is driving him to use porn. More likely it will make him feel even worse about himself and more in need of a crutch. Making even harder the wife's job of helping him implement a new coping strategy.

sufdb...another clarification. I am rarely in favor of directly making such statements to an individual. But I do believe in tough love, even if you are telling them to leave, do so with firmness, and truth, but also compassion and goodwill.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For the moment my goal is not to reach any porn users (who are certainly lurking), but to enable/encourage women to take a tough stand.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is how I interpreted your intent and I think that's why I've hung in here on this thread. I don't think that encouraging women to be unrelenting and demanding in their marriage (i.e.black/white, zero tolerance controlling behavior) is a safe approach. Lots of women take a tough stand on porn and what I've found is that the women who do that sacrifice honesty in their relationship because the men begin to be secretive.
I don't think black and white, zero tolerance is the most effective approach. Educating yourself on the potential addiction and harms that porn can cause, educating yourself on the reasons men tend to turn to porn, and educating yourself on effective spousal communication seems the better approach to me. If you take too tough of a stand, honesty and openness inevitably go out the window, and you will most likely have a more difficult time addressing the root of the problem which is resulting in porn use.
I disagree with your approach, not your morals and ideals.

Smile

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SmileADay:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For the moment my goal is not to reach any porn users (who are certainly lurking), but to enable/encourage women to take a tough stand.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is how I interpreted your intent and I think that's why I've hung in here on this thread. I don't think that encouraging women to be unrelenting and demanding in their marriage (i.e.black/white, zero tolerance controlling behavior) is a safe approach. Lots of women take a tough stand on porn and what I've found is that the women who do that sacrifice honesty in their relationship because the men begin to be secretive.
I don't think black and white, zero tolerance is the most effective approach. Educating yourself on the potential addiction and harms that porn can cause, educating yourself on the reasons men tend to turn to porn, and educating yourself on effective spousal communication seems the better approach to me. If you take too tough of a stand, honesty and openness inevitably go out the window, and you will most likely have a more difficult time addressing the root of the problem which is resulting in porn use.
I disagree with your approach, not your morals and ideals.

Smile </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok, more later...but what do you do when the softer approach fails and the male blows you off, and continues to do what he wants?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok, more later...but what do you do when the softer approach fails and the male blows you off, and continues to do what he wants? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The person who blows you off with a softer approach is the same person who is likely to lie in order to keep you quiet or avoid divorce. How do you define "softer approach"? Can you give me an example of a soft approach?
The way I was interpreting soft approach was to equate it to being less aggressive and more understanding. If one's goal is to eliminate porn because s/he believes it is inherently evil and wrong, then I think the goal is off and the result will be undesirable because either the user won't stop or the user will stop and likely hold resentment. The goal should be to discover what has led the spouse to use porn, what is causing the spouse to continue using porn, and why the non-user really wants the porn to go away. Zero tolerance, B/W does not address these things explicitly. Zero tolerance, B/W is controlling and close-minded. While being aggressive may work for some people, I don't think it makes for a safe general statement about porn use. There is simply too great a risk of sacrificing honesty.

Smile

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SmileADay:
<strong>The way I was interpreting soft approach was to equate it to being less aggressive and more understanding. The goal should be to discover what has led the spouse to use porn, what is causing the spouse to continue using porn, and why the non-user really wants the porn to go away.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, exactly.

That is why I am trying to help women see porn a little differently. So it is slightly easier for her to be supportive. Hard to be understanding when you assume his porn use is triggered by his dissatisfaction with your body or your shared sex life. Much easier to be understanding if you assume his porn use is triggered by fear and anxiety over his job, his receding hairline, penis size, lack of ejaculatory control, etc.

That doesn't mean porn is ALWAYS about something else. Sometimes the guy IS a selfish pig. And his porn use is about objectifying women and having unlimited access to emotionalally empty sexual gratification. So I'm not saying that NEVER happens.

Just saying that while you are exploring his reasons for using porn. And realizing that initially even he might not know why he does. Or be sufficiently honest to admit it (even to himself). Better to start with giving him the benefit of the doubt rather than jumping to unflattering conclusions.

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: holdingontoit ]</small>

Hmmm...this is morphing into how does one deal with the porn user rather than is porn normal, and ok, and should be allowed....is that correct?

So we (who are still talking) are in agreement porn is not ok, must be stopped? I can comment on this. I have contemplated smiles suggestions and make the observation that is how a woman deals with stuff....it is not how a man does, and therein may lie some of the difference in how I am being perceived.

Also holding, we are drifting off into statistics now, and I guess I have no idea really...but in my travels my sense of porn use is there are a lot of male porn users who are not safe marital partners, and never will be....some are out an out pigs for sure....but more likely they are just males who respond poorly to domestication.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm...this is morphing into how does one deal with the porn user rather than is porn normal, and ok, and should be allowed....is that correct?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, with 7 pages of any topic, I think you should expect some degree of morphing. I think very little of this thread has talked about the whether porn is good or bad.
What do you mean by whether it should be allowed? Do you mean whether a wife should allow her husband to look at porn?
That sounds strange to me thus far in my relationship. My guy doesn't stop doing things because I do not allow him to, he stops because I have convinced him that whatever he's doing isn't worth the money, effort, pain, time, whatever...either to me and/or him. I don't control him...I do influence him and have expectations, but I do not control him (allow him to look at porn or not).

Smile

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SmileADay:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm...this is morphing into how does one deal with the porn user rather than is porn normal, and ok, and should be allowed....is that correct?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, with 7 pages of any topic, I think you should expect some degree of morphing. I think very little of this thread has talked about the whether porn is good or bad.
What do you mean by whether it should be allowed? Do you mean whether a wife should allow her husband to look at porn?
That sounds strange to me thus far in my relationship. My guy doesn't stop doing things because I do not allow him to, he stops because I have convinced him that whatever he's doing isn't worth the money, effort, pain, time, whatever...either to me and/or him. I don't control him...I do influence him and have expectations, but I do not control him (allow him to look at porn or not).

Smile </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you are killing me with this semantic stuff, I am linguistically challenged in some senses...sigh. I figure we all know no one can make anyone do anything at all, is a given....sooooooooooo when I say allow, I mean in the sense of condone, accept, agree with, and visit no consequences upon the porn user. I agree with your description about marital dynamics.

btw, wasn't complaining about the morphing, just observing.

Do you want/expect your H to use porn? If so then you are "allowing" it....so are you?

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you want/expect your H to use porn? If so then you are "allowing" it....so are you?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He knows I'd prefer if he didn't use it. He discusses it openly with me and is completely honest. I know he doesn't want to stop using it (about once a week) and we have agreed upon boundaries. It's an open issue...I can bring it up anytime I want and express any concerns I have.
I have told him that his porn use makes me feel a little insecure about my body, but I have not asked him to stop using it and I don't plan on ever doing that unless one of the determined boundaries is crossed. Those boundaries are 1) he doesn't spend money on it, 2) I don't feel like my SF needs are going unmet, 3) it doesn't open him up to an affair. We've also agreed that those boundaries can be expanded upon.

So, no I don't want/expect him to use porn, but I am "allowing" it by not asking him to stop.
Something I should say is that since I made the decision to "allow" it, he uses it less and I'm less bothered by it and don't feel the same sense of insecurity.

Smile

i have taken a similar approach to yours , Smile.

only,it was not so openly communicated.
we are still working on that....but, it's getting better.

and for the recored, i do agree w/ your stance on the issue....almost completely. i am still a little fuzzy @ a few things.

i try to post keeping the woman's feelings in mind, so perhaps an H who is reading and has no clue as to what she might be feeling......will read something that makes him think differently....realize......i don't want her to feel like that.....maybe i do need to think about what exactly it is i am after when i seek it(what's behind it)......and maybe i really CAN talk to her about it.
maybe it will help someone like SCRUM, who says he avoids that Pandoras Box.

so, anyway, smile.....i think this has morphed into the thread that you and i tried to start several months ago that turned into another porn addiction thread <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
and i hope that it will help somebody.

<small>[ January 24, 2004, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

Hi Nelly...agreed. I'm impressed we got so far without the confusion and pain of addictions taking over. I've appreciated the opportunity to take part in this discussion and I don't think there are hard feelings anywhere. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I think the people who stuck around all have good intentions and a respectable perspective.
Thanks you guys!
Smile

<small>[ January 25, 2004, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

I think I am coming in to the middle of an ongoing discussion, so if my comments seem random or not in the flow of things, sorry! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I have only read the last couple pages (and first page back when it began). So I apologize (I'm too tired to read it all though!)

I just wanted to share a few thoughts for whatever it's worth. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I look at it, of course, from a Christian worldview... I believe God created us to live pure and holy lives, and I find nothing pure or holy about pornography. But that's all I'll say in that regards.

Here are some disturbing things about pornography from a moral view (that any Christian or non-Christian might believe):

1) It's highly addictive, esp. for males, including teenagers.

2) It's a multi-billion dollar industry that literally makes money off of men's addictions. It does not help them but rather feeds them. The more men are into it, the more money the spend, the more the business profits of the addictions of others.

3) It is exploitive of women and of children.

4) It is a business that literally hounds people by sending out porn sites into email accounts... (spam... again, illegal). The pornography industry has no regards for the feelings of others... it will send you stuff even if you do not want them to. It's all about them making money.

5) It has harmed many marriages... not only because of a husband's use of pornography during marriage BUT ALSO because of young teenage boys who grow up viewing women as only sexual objects or as fantasies... they can receive a very twisted idea of intimacy because of pornography. Later, when they marry, it can hurt their ability to be intimate in non-sexual ways with their wives. They might even feel disappointed and unsatisfied when their wives don't perform the type of sex acts they have seen in pornography. Sex is more of an act than it is about love... because...

6) There is no love in pornography. It is not the viewing of couple's faithfulness or friendship or communication skills. It is simply watching two people having the act of sex void of love and often void of relationship altogether.

7) It desensitizes us.

8) It causes tremendous guilt and shame for those who are addicted. And I don't believe it's solely due to external factors (i.e. the disapproval of a spouse or parent), but an internal war in the heart. When we are addicted to something, it controls and enslaves us and in essence, we feel as if we are not free to deny it. No one enjoys being addicted to anything (whether it be food, alcohol, gambling, pornography).

9) Pornography is a "fantasy world" that is far from the world of reality.

10) Did I mention that women are sex objects, children are exploited, and men become addicted... simply because those in the pornography want what comes with that: money.

And I am aware of the fact that I am very unaware of the extent of the pornography industry and some of the perversion and absolute disgust of hard-core porn (including things like group sex, pedophilia, sex with animals, etc).

I believe that pornography is very harmful- to children, to women, to men, and to society as a whole.

<small>[ January 25, 2004, 02:15 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>