I read thread after thread of how Porn has/is destroying relationships and it's a tragedy.

Men......is't not all the innocent descriptors you think it is....it's a destroyer of both yourself and your family.

Put up barriers; just as you do in "real" life....don't be alone with a woman...don't talk about personal issues....don't respond to uncomfortable statements. RUN....RUN...and keep running as fast as you can from it. I don't think there's anything as dangerous or destructive as Porn; and that includes drugs and prositution.

JMHO,
Pegasus

I agree Pegasus. Pornography is a very harmful thing-- very addicting, exploitive, degrading, and a very false picture of "intimacy."

pegusus,

i'm guessing the porn is why you and your wife struggle so much w/ what works for the other......sexually. ( 'wifes touch not working' thread)

i,m guessing that you anticipate that she will behave like the women in porn you have seen.....
and when she doesn't, you blame her.
she picks up on the blame and feels worthless and then resentful.

women in porn are actrsses.....what you see 'working' for them in most porn movies is based on male fantasy.....not what really works for a woman.

perhaps you and your wife could find some material that is more couple oriented and work together at pleasing eachother.

<small>[ January 20, 2004, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

i agree that porn is very damaging to the relationship. My WS would use it instead of coming to me. I have found that asking or demanding doesn't work. Men can not control this urge as they think they can. It is a step in the wrong direction. They usually progess into deeper areas of immorality. Since we are seeking answers to what is the problem with some infidelity, I believe that porn is the start of sexual addiction. I been a christian have asked for guidance from my church and God. The bible states that lusting is immoral. God has stated that he will destroy the world for sexual immorality. Looking at our present day soceity, sexual immorality is raging. Christians have become politically corrrect and have not voiced they beliefs in the bible, and God. I pray that anyone who has to deal with this crisis will first seek assurance they are sure of their salvation. Then ask God to pray for them and the other party. Seek help and guidance from the church. Do not deny the problem cause Satan wants us to be ashamed. Then seek assurance that the offending party is sure of their salvation also. I have been crushed by this as we all have but God has the answers we are searching for and the way to heal the hurts of the offending and injured spouse. Peace.

Some statistics show that upwards of 1/3 of porn is now purchased or viewed by women. This is no longer just a "male" issue.

Men - get a copy of "Every Man's Battle" and take it to heart.

Ladies - get a copy of Dr. Laura's "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands" and take it to heart.

The world (and marriages!) would be a much better place!

Nelly,

Just as with my other thread you mentioned, you are SO off base you are on another planet and responding to your idiotic conclusions are a waste of bandwidth.

I've seen so little Porn; only when I get one of those emails that lie "hyjack" you to one of their sites. I simply put a filter in place, block the sender, and delete the message.

Porn, from what I've read, is completely demeaning to women and an affront to anyone with character, morals, and values.

Every...the only book I would add would be "Women or from Venus; Men are from Mars"....Yours are GREAT choices that help a great deal.

Your suggestions should be handy to add frequently to new folks who post on the topic.

Peg,

relax, for crying outloud.
you have brought up porn in several threads as well as the fact that your wifes touch does nothing for you. perhaps i jumped to the conclusion that you are having an issue w/ it....like so many others.

why is that, do you think?

how far off base am i really?

you don't have to answer me, and i am not trying to attack you.
and neither were the others who you told were all wrong in the advice they suggested.

goood luck w/ your marriage.

Nelly,

Thanks for the good luck wishes and I'll write about any topic I think is valid; just as does everyone else.

Hope you get a clue, you need too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pegasus

instead of being so vague,
could you please tell me what clue it is that you think i need to get??

please.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pegasus959:
<strong> Nelly,

Just as with my other thread you mentioned, you are SO off base you are on another planet and responding to your idiotic conclusions are a waste of bandwidth.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

Whoa there, little winged horsey. It would be decent of you to keep in mind that there are many different people here who have many different opinions. Many of those opinions are different from your own.

If you are only accepting of agreement, maybe you should entitle your thread "Come here and agree with me".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I've seen so little Porn; only when I get one of those emails that lie "hyjack" you to one of their sites. Porn, from what I've read, is completely demeaning to women and an affront to anyone with character, morals, and values. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This I find funny. If you've hardly seen anything in the way of porn, then how do you know anything of what you are talking about?

Porn is more destructive than drugs or prostitution? I've never heard of anyone dying from porn use. The worst I can imagine is a friction burn. Overdoses and HIV can lead to death and that to me seems far more dangerous.

Pegasus,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Porn, from what I've read, is completely demeaning to women and an affront to anyone with character, morals, and values.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting. So you haven't viewed much porn, but you're willing to go by what others have read. Does this mean all porn? Anything a man will masturbate to?

Quite a few men get their enjoyment from a Victoria's Secret catalog or even local paper ads for bras and panties at Sears no less. Is that completely demeaning?

This is a difficult subject with very strong opponents.

I think a primary mistake is for women to take it personally. Your husband doesn't want the women in the porn or even for you to do what they do. They want sexual fulfillment without worrying about doing something wrong, without the worry of trying to please you, without the same old same old. Most of all husbands like to feel desired and wanted by their wives.

Porn is an escape, a release, sometimes something to do to keep from thinking about what they're not getting from their wives.

Wives complain about the husband masturbating to porn in the next room. Could your husband have come to you instead? If he could did he know that? Think you could get him to come to bed with you instead?

Are some of the things your husband would like to do with you in bed really that bad? What are the problems YOU have with it?

I do not have too much of an issue with porn, I used to get so mad when I knew my husband looked at it. It drove me nuts, but he explained it to me very well. he said sometimes guy just have to get off when their wife is not around, so they need a visual. Guys are very visual. He masturbates to the penetration. It does not bug me when he is watching a man and a woman have sex, but if he is just looking at other women or lesbian porn it makes me nuts. But latley we have been exploring anal sex, which is something you really have to work into and some girls take longer than others and when he tried to put it in and he couldnt he got very pissed off. Which is why porn can be so misleading. he thinks he can do me like those girls get done on the first attempt, NNOOOOOOO. Porn is such a controversial topic and you have too look at all different aspects. A guy jerking off to porn in the next room from you is very disrespectful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Scrum:
<strong> I think a primary mistake is for women to take it personally. Your husband doesn't want the women in the porn or even for you to do what they do. They want sexual fulfillment without worrying about doing something wrong, without the worry of trying to please you, without the same old same old. Most of all husbands like to feel desired and wanted by their wives.

Porn is an escape, a release, sometimes something to do to keep from thinking about what they're not getting from their wives.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me just draw attention to your statement here and bold repeat something that just jumps out at me - nearly had fire coming out my ears and nose as I read it...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Scrum:
<strong> I think a primary mistake is for women to take it personally. .......

They want sexual fulfillment without worrying about doing something wrong, without the worry of trying to please you, without the same old same old. .....

Most of all husbands like to feel desired and wanted by their wives.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's try this with a new twist:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Wives want sexual fulfillment without worrrying about doing something wrong, without the worry of trying to please him, without the same old same old.....

Most of all, wives want to feel desired and wanted by their husbands. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Kinda hard to feel these things if your husband is mentally doing it with her instead of you. Kind of hard to not feel that you're going to come up as inferior, that you can't please him...

Sorry - your explanation and rationale are enough to make a rational woman puke! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: KaylaAndy ]</small>

Porn is here to stay. It is something that wives are going to have to deal with whether they like it or not. You can bad mouth it all you want, but that doesn't solve the problem or help you deal with it.

I think men don't understand the problems women have with porn.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
He masturbates to the penetration. It does not bug me when he is watching a man and a woman have sex, but if he is just looking at other women or lesbian porn it makes me nuts.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most men would never guess what isithopeless said is her trouble spot with porn in a million years.

I agree the next room stuff is bad and a huge indicator of poor communication. It is very disrespectful to both parties. Some men have a real porn addiction, but most would much rather be with their wives.

Some women can do it just like the porns. I didn't think so until I experienced it myself. Everybody is different.

Explore, play, communicate, enjoy.

KaylaAndy: Well done. Your post voices the thoughts and feelings of many spouses. And YES, we have mentioned it before in a nonthreathening way. But time and time again, Husbands deny we ever Mentioned it in the first place. Woman are not clueless--it you were having sex with us and then stop...We ask WHY? Many men consider it "harmless fun" and that isn't what you would label an affair. It starts somewhere and "Survey says... 68 % of men first met their OW on the internet and had been looking at porn sites which lead them to the OW." Peace

KaylaAndy,

You're an example of why I've stayed away from marriage builders discussion boards.

Concentrate on the problem and not attacking me.

Men and women are not that different in what they want.

I would seriously doubt a husband would mentally be doing it with "her" while he is with you. You are assumming and making it personal.

Husbands do not view their wives as inferior and for the most part do not understand women's self-esteem issues. If you think you're going to fail then you probably are!

How many women out there have husbands who want you to wear sexy lingerie, but you don't because you don't feel good enough about your body? You don't look like the models? Your husband doesn't give a hoot about that. For him it is a sign of you showing an interest and wanting to please him as well as being visually stimulating.

This isn't any different than a woman wanting her husband to show an interest with flowers or another form of romance.

We all want the same things, but with different techniques.

Unfortunately the husbands preferred techniques are politically incorrect, but a wive's are not.

When's the last time you heard romance novels getting bashed or the women who read them?

Romance novels are PORN for women. They have the same effects on marriage and relationships. They just aren't as easy a target to hit.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Sorry - your explanation and rationale are enough to make a rational woman puke!

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">An you are a rational woman?

<small>[ January 21, 2004, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Scrum ]</small>

This is just a big pity party. Get together, bash and attack.

Do you feel better about yourselves?

Well that's nice because the problems aren't any closer to being solved.

Think about that!

scrum,
i think i am a fairly rational woman when it comes to this subject.
atleast, i try to be......and it has taken me a while to get here.

you are right about a few things....but, you are making way too many assumptions and accusations.

there was a huge thread several months ago about how romance novels and porn do NOTHING to help build
intimacy in a relationship......it's best to discuss and disclose and seek to understand anything your spouse may have an issue with and the reasons behind them.

by the way...Pegusus....who started this thread..is a man. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<small>[ January 21, 2004, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Scrum:
<strong> KaylaAndy,

You're an example of why I've stayed away from marriage builders discussion boards.

Concentrate on the problem and not attacking me.

An you are a rational woman? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh show me how it's done, oh masterful one. Show me how well you DON'T attack the individual and instead focus on the problem.

I guess I have to spell this out for you. Address the issue I raised, please. Put the shoe on the other foot.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Wives want sexual fulfillment without worrrying about doing something wrong, without the worry of trying to please him, without the same old same old.....

Most of all, wives want to feel desired and wanted by their husbands. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How can a woman NOT worry about doing something wrong... How does she feel desired?.... How does she not feel insecure about pleasing him? ... How does she NOT take it personally when the man is getting his sexual fulfillment from porn and not EXCLUSIVELY from the marriage. Your words not mine.

Scrum wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They want sexual fulfillment without worrying about doing something wrong, without the worry of trying to please you, without the same old same old. Most of all husbands like to feel desired and wanted by their wives.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Porn has no place in a marriage that is focused on meeting each other's needs instead of self-satisfaction. It's a lot harder to work to meet someone else's needs. And frankly, it's a lot harder to allow someone the patience, love, kindness and respect to let them meet our needs exclusively without seeking outside fulfillment, be it a paper-doll or a flesh-and-blood OW.

<small>[ January 21, 2004, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: KaylaAndy ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How many women out there have husbands who want you to wear sexy lingerie, but you don't because you don't feel good enough about your body?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have accepted porn in my relationship as long as certain barriers, which could lead to addiction or infidelity, are not not crossed. But, I have to admit that knowing my fiance looks at porn even on occasion causes me to compare myself all the more to the beautiful models and other beautiful people around me every day. It lowers my confidence. So, while the use of porn has been POJA'd in our relationship at this point, it is not without risk and sacrifice. I'll wear whatever 5x wants, but something he has to accept is that while he looks at porn, I don't feel as comfortable and sexy. Porn does make me less likely to feel comfortable in sexy lingerie.

Then again, even without porn, I'd compare myself because that's what humans do (esp. women). Many women spend great amounts of time, energy, and money to look outstanding, and whether or not my guy looks at porn, I'll be comparing myself to them. The porn just makes me question my appearance more.

Smile

sorry, DP

<small>[ January 21, 2004, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

nice and honest post, smile.

scrum, you did mention that men don't understand a woman's insecurities...particularly around thier bodies and porn and being compared.....

it would be nice if a H tried to understand them......wanted to understand them.....and wanted to share his w/ own insecurities w/his wife. that could build a great deal of real intimacy.
but, most of the times, he will hide his own issues, deny them or cover them up.......and hope that she will do the same....just get over them.

what good does that do either of them?

SmileADay,

I do not understand why you and women in genral have the self-esteem issues related to porn, however I do accept it.

I do not know how to alleviate those issues and I know first hand what a can of worms porn can be. I am engaged to be married and even though my fiance is open to the idea of porn, I do not want to open that Pandora's box.

We have taken a different tactic to learning about each other and adding some spice with the book "101 Nights of Great Sex". There are 101 sets of sealed instructions. Fifty for her and fifty for him. Some of them are pretty hilarious. All involve anticipation. I think going "by the book" takes some of the pressure of failure away, worries of doing something wrong and help with inhibitions.

I hesitate getting involved in this discussion noticing all the "slams" but did want to comment briefly.

Scrum said: "Porn is an escape, a release, sometimes something to do to keep from thinking about what they're not getting from their wives."

So is alcohol, drugs, etc. God created sex and it is good within a marriage between the couple. Pornography twists and perverts it. Alcohol in and of itself is not bad. But people lack self-control and become addicted (to either porn, alchohol, food, drugs, whatever it might be) and yes, they are "escapes" from reality, but they are very poor and harmful "escapes."

Pornography is a HUGE business. Hugh Hefner is a very wealthy man. Sex sells. The intent of the pornographer is not to "help" a marriage by giving the man an "escape" from his marital problems. The intent of the pornographer is to make money. Children are exploited, men become addicted and enslaved by their lusts, and women are degraded. There is absolutely no way around that.

A woman should not have to share her husband with any other woman (nor a man share his wife with any other man)... whether it be a woman she knows or a woman in a magazine. I honestly believe that any woman who says that she doens't mind her husband viewing pornography has deceived herself. How many women look for a "tall,dark, and handsome man who looks at pornography?"

What happens is the man justifies it to the woman convincing her that it's "okay" and she agrees. But she is deceiving herself, he is deceiving her, he is deceiving himself.

The only naked woman a man should lay his eyes on is his wife! To say that he has to look at pornography to become stimulated or as an escape or release, etc... is only saying, "I lack the self-control to deny myself."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not understand why you and women in genral have the self-esteem issues related to porn, however I do accept it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi Scrum,
I think it's harder for men to understand the self-esteem issue in part because men are not so competitive when it comes to appearance. Men tend to compete in terms of sports, intelligence, business success. Most women go so far out of there way to look attractive...it's a big deal. The beauty, fashion, models...they are everywhere and they are mostly heterosexual. Men have the fall back that many male models are homosexual and thus not a threat to their relationship.

Depending on how secure you are with your own appearance, manhood, strength, athleticism, etc., I may or may not be able to draw up a suitable analogy.
Ok, if you found out that your fiancee was looking at male pornography in private, how would you feel? Now, let's get more specific. Let's say she likes to look at it to marvel over the size of the men's package. Let's say that she really likes a large bulge, although she wouldn't bring this up with you because of your pride, and your package doesn't at all compare with what she dreams of. It's possible that she doesn't even want you to have a bigger package for performance reasons like giving bj's or less painful sex, but boy does she get her kicks looking at them.
Maybe you are incredibly well endowed and this wouldn't bother you, but for most men, this is a tender spot (no pun). This is the source of most men's insecurities the same way breast size (butt size, cute little waist, etc.) is for women.
Guys are drawn to large breasts. They love staring at them. Very large breasts may not be very practical, but dang they're fun to look at. All women know this. All women compare their breasts to large chested women at some point...even if they have beautiful, perky B or C cups. Come on...think of the pain and inconvenience of breast implants. Large breasts are uncomfortable...they cause back pain, hurt when you bounce, limit the clothes you can wear and still look respectable. But, look at how many women want bigger boobs!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
At least your penis size isn't automatically evident to every person who checks you out.

So, when you stare at pornography, marveling over those large beautiful breasts, tight, little butts, and perfectly molded abs...well, that hits on our insecurities. It reminds us that we are not perfect...or more realistically, not good enough for you.

Does any of this make sense?

Smile

Smile-a-Day,

I just want you to know that I'm partial to the Rubenesque but also side with the French that champagne glass sized is an excellent cup size.

I'll take a woman passionate about lovemaking over pretty window dressing anyday.

Tony

I just talked to my guy about this discussion. I like one of the analogies he gave. Imagine if your fiance's boss started giving her pricey gifts. Diamond earrings, a gorgeous necklace, a computer... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> She claims that she doesn't like him at all and there is no need to worry. The point is that (unless you are very wealthy), that will play on any sensitivies you have as a provider. You don't have the money to give her these amazing gifts. She doesn't necessarily like him, but he represents what you cannot provide. Even if you can give her pearl earrings (which are a very nice gift, indeed), you can't quite afford the diamonds...even if she doesn't need them.
You're a good provider, but there are men out there who are better providers. She's got nice boobs, but there are women out there with much nicer, voluptuous breasts...and you like to look at them.
Does that work?
Smile

I just realized my last post might be taken the wrong way, especially when addressed to someone.

It wasn't a come-on, just a statement of preference, lest anyone should think I'm making offers here at MB.

I'm sure there are some fine ladies here, but come-on, I'm still married in a legal sense, even if my wife doesn't see it the same way.

Then there is that whole covenant before God thing...

Sorry if some took my message the wrong way, back to the topic please.

Tony

No worries, Java.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

SmileADay

Wonderful comments.

You're right on about men and penis size, but the funny thing is women "protect" men's egos by not divulging if they aren't big enough. I figure I'm about average in that department. I can't do anything about it, so I don't worry about it. Now I have to admit that when my XW cheated on me it bothered me that the OM might be bigger. I don't care if he is hung like a horse anymore.

I have a very differet outlook on my relationship. I know that if my fiance wants to be with someone she is perfectly capable of doing that. I know that she wants to be with me so I do not worry about being good enough for her or that this isn't right or that isn't right. I just be myself and love her. I love her and trust her which means I can let my insecurities go and not let them screw us up. I'm not sure if that makes any sense to you.

Another point is even the perfect bodied women feel insecure. Or how about the 5'5" 115 lb 30 year old with the great body that catches her husband looking at big girls online?

As for implants, etc, I much prefer a natural girl! Make-up optional.

BTW, I'm not defending porn in these posts. It is an issue that is here to stay. Just something else couples need to deal with.

The kids in high school today have grown up with it. I would be curious to here comments from people in their early 20's.

smile,
thank 5x for that analogy about the jewles (that's what i meant about sharing insecurities and fears, and seeking to understand eachother better)......men seldom can relate to a woman sneeking porn......i guess because they can relate too well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

they tend to think i wish she was looking at porn, that would mean she had an interest in sex!
and that would be a good thing.

but, i do think they would feel differently if they were to find that she kept a whole world of it all to herself.....and she refused to share or discuss it with him.
not much different than an affair really.

Scrum, you did hit the nail on the head when you said, we all just want to feel desired by our spouse.

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

Everything that humans do can be done in an unhealthy or healthy way. Eat too much and you are a glutton with serious consequences...think too much of your appearance and you are vain, with serious consequences....think too much of your goals/beliefs and you are prideful/arrogant with serious consequences....think too much of money/possessions and you are greedy, with serious consequences,....try to avoid work/obligations/etc. too much, and you are slothful, with serious consequences

Porn is about lust, and is the unhealthy manifestation of sexual desire. Those who promote or excuse porn try to make it seem like just another healthy sexual behavior (like, umm..I dunno, whos on top, or oral sex).

Sort of like trying to say if you need 2000 calories a day, makes no difference if you get it in a balanced meal, or 2 chocolate malts... since you don't "gain" any weight, must be ok WRONG...and just cause porn isn't adultery doesn't mean it is ok.

sex is good, lust is bad.... those are the labels we use to categorize sexual focus. Porn is about lust, it is a celebration of sex for sex alone. Healthy sex is only manifested in actual procreation acts (which unfortuneately does make prostitution and promiscuity normal sort of), or in the context of a relationship...porn meets neither of these standards, and is therefore harmful. Ok, if that is so, what are the consequences.

1. Whatever resources (emotional/psychological/financial/time) are vested in consuming porn could be put to a higher order use in promoting a healthy relationship.

2. The use of porn will diminish the self-worth of your relationship partner. This is not debateable, it is an immutable psychological reality. Do I really need to explain that?

3. Porn encourages secretive and loner behavior. It seperates the user from the company of decent, healthy people. They cannot reveal their porn use because they will be shunned. This has a negative impact on ones self-worth.

4. The "business" of porn demeans people (especially women) by promoteing people selling themselves as sex objects, this is not positive affirmation of ones worth, rather a celebration of you have no worth except as an object to be used. We are all sex objects, so there is no self worth to be gained in making that your "worth". It is psychologically the same as slavery, where the slave has no value except they can work, which all can do.

This is not an ethical issue per se, it is a straightforward choice issue. Porn in itself is not wrong, it is sex, and sex is ok. But porn is an unhealthy manifestation of sexuality with no upside, and is therefore the sexual equivalent of gluttony, greed, conceit, arrogance, slothfulness.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>Scrum-what a name - just a typo away from some men's rationale about porn...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, isn't that nice and respectful?

It a RUGBY term. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Scrum,
I am not sure what you meant about most men not guessing that for a million years, can you word that a little differently. i feel like there is a thin line between respect and disrespect with porn. Like with me, i know he does it but I do not want to know when he does it. There have been times I have come home from work and seen a nasty paper towel on the computer desk, so right away I knew he watched porn and jeked off, but i feel its disrespectful to me to not clean up the mess, that drives me nuts. i do not want to know. but i watch porn too, if i need a jump start to getting in the mood or if he is not home. It used to bother me so much and I used to get very upset but now I have accepted that its a guy thing and I cannot stop it so what am I gonna do?

I think that pornography is a dynamic that is different for each marriage.

In a very general sense, there are basically 3 sorts of ways that porn plays out in a marriage.

1) Neither person approves of it, therefore they don't use it, and it is not an issue.

2) Both people approve of it and use it, and it is also not a problem.

But I believe that the vast majority of people fit into the 3rd category...

3) The husband uses it and the wife may or may not be aware of it, but if she did know, she wouldn't want him to.

To me, it doesn't really matter what the issue is. If any behaviour upsets your spouse, you need to be willing to address it and solve it if you want to have anything close to resembling a happy marriage.

I could see how I might feel insecure if my wife ordered a subscription to "Super-Human Weiner " Magazine. It seems to me that as insecure as men can be, women seem to be insecure that much more.

The only women in that situation that I don't feel particularly sorry for is ones who only throw out the odd sexual scraps every other February 29.

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Slapnuts ]</small>

Dilbert: You get a prize. I'm in my 19th year of rugby. Now as a referee much more so than a player.

Isithopeless: I believe most men would think you'd have a problem with graphic porn vs the pretty woman softcore. That is what I meant by the million years comment. I can't imagine leaving a mess or a hard evidence trail. I would almost suspect that is a "cry for help".

Slapnuts,
Unfortunuately it is much more complicated than that. What about the hapless couple who was married before the prevalence, scope and ease of access of porn today.

Better yet the couple who the husband told the wife upfront about his porn issues and the wife thought she was into it or could change him?

I see porn as a Pandora's box. You really don't know the affect until you open it and then it is too late.

Porn is another one of those things that you need to decide what your marriage is worth to you and what you are willing to sacrifice of yourself. This goes for wives and husbands. Somebody is going to have to suck it up and make some changes for the good of the marriage. Maybe the husband, maybe the wife.

Like infidelity the BS is stuck with the pain and WS is stuck with the guilt. They both suck.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Porn is about lust, and is the unhealthy manifestation of sexual desire. Those who promote or excuse porn try to make it seem like just another healthy sexual behavior (like, umm..I dunno, whos on top, or oral sex). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I excuse porn, but I don't think it's a HEALTHY sexual behavior. I do think that it has become a norm in our society. I think your list of consequences is spot on...thanks for sharing that...very well put.

I think that it's as Isithopeless put it...it's a reality. It's not going away, so how can we deal with it?
People here continuously point out that any woman (like me) who allows her man to convince her that porn can be incorporated into a marriage is fooling herself, but I still think that most women who think that it's not being incorporated without their knowledge is fooling theirselves. I'm not trying to start a war and I'm not referring to the MB population necessarily.
Whether or not it is right or wrong, healthy or demoralizing, it's reality. For me, I care more about radical honesty than whether or not he looks at porn. And in the majority of relationships, I think that's a choice we women have to make.
Now, for those of you who have achieved and maintained the perfect sex lives smothered in 100% honesty, with no porn at all, congratulations...that's a remarkable feat. But, I truly think you are a tiny minority...at least in this society.

Please note that everything I've said goes for non-addiction situations of porn use. Porn and sex addiction is a different topic altogether.

Smile

Dilbert,

Point well taken. It wasn't respectful. But it also wasn't personal in that I was taking a shot at some men's rationale about porn and not the person - and I viewed the name he chose as a deliberate red-herring about the topic so I spotted it/got it - It's all very interesting that his key point is that women aren't supposed to take their husband's viewing of porn personally, but I make a scummy comment about the rationale and someone takes it personally. It wasn't respectful and it has been edited.

Sexuality is the ultimate PERSONAL issue. It's where insecurity lies with it's deepest roots. Adequacy is not just a male issue, ok?

Scrum still hasn't addressed my flip side question to him. Does any man dare address the issue?

I'll post it a third time so you don't have to scroll back:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wives want sexual fulfillment without worrrying about doing something wrong, without the worry of trying to please him, without the same old same old.....

Most of all, wives want to feel desired and wanted by their husbands. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was a direct flip side of Scrum's rationalizing why women shouldn't take men's porn penchant/addiction personally.

I'm asking how is it NOT personal, when you take the same mentality and apply it to the same gender.

How does porn jive with the "sexual exclusivity" that should govern a marital relationship?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>Sexuality is the ultimate PERSONAL issue. It's where insecurity lies with it's deepest roots. Adequacy is not just a male issue, ok?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>Scrum still hasn't addressed my flip side question to him. Does any man dare address the issue?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, I'll take a shot at it. You won't even have to triple-dog-dare me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy some pages back:
<strong>Wives want sexual fulfillment without worrrying about doing something wrong, without the worry of trying to please him, without the same old same old.....

Most of all, wives want to feel desired and wanted by their husbands.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>This was a direct flip side of Scrum's rationalizing why women shouldn't take men's porn penchant/addiction personally.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed, it is a direct flip in the sense that you've swapped the gender-specific pronouns.

But, are you submitting that women really feel the same way about sex as men do? I challenge the basic premise that we can simply plug in pronouns representing either gender into any statement and deal accurately with how men or women feel about any topic.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>I'm asking how is it NOT personal, when you take the same mentality and apply it to the same gender.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's try an analogy here. A W likes to play Bridge. Her H plays, but doesn't really like to play all that often, so the W plays in a Bridge Club. Should he take it personally that his W plays with a different partner? Is the H going to complain and feel bad about himself personally because his W doesn't force him to play more than he wants to? Any time he wants to play Bridge, he can because his W is always ready for a good game, but she is free to play with alternate partners and he's free to go play golf with his buddies or putter around in the workshop, which he'd rather do than play Bridge all the time.

Of course, it's an analogy. RC is not nearly as PERSONAL as SF. But I think that's what it works out to for many. Then it becomes a chicken-or-the-egg thing. Which came first -- marital problems or porn? Or better, who got rejected first? I think the prevailing response to men who watch porn is that it is the source of the problem. I think it is just as often a symptom of the problem rather than the source something like the analogy -- W isn't interested in sex so the H substitutes porn and scratches his head trying to figure out why the sexually uninterested W is so uptight about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>How does porn jive with the "sexual exclusivity" that should govern a marital relationship?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On this point we'll have to agree to disagree. If my W and I decide to watch something risqué or even pornographic (and the distinction there is quite the slippery slope), it's between us (exclusively between us I might say) and perfectly acceptable.


None of this is to say that porn is a good choice for M when a W slams the door sexually enough times. I think many men decide it's the least of bad things that they might do when the iron curtain descends on their sexual relationshiph with their W. Two wrongs doesn't make a right, but lets not forget that men and porn is just as likely the second wrong as the first.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong>sex is good, lust is bad.... those are the labels we use to categorize sexual focus. Porn is about lust, it is a celebration of sex for sex alone. Healthy sex is only manifested in actual procreation acts (which unfortuneately does make prostitution and promiscuity normal sort of), or in the context of a relationship...porn meets neither of these standards, and is therefore harmful. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, if lust is for your spouse, since that's in the context of a relationship, that kind of lust is okay? If you are looking at nude photos of your wife and getting aroused, is that still porn?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, if lust is for your spouse, since that's in the context of a relationship, that kind of lust is okay? If you are looking at nude photos of your wife and getting aroused, is that still porn?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you saying that if you looked at nude pictures of your H that there would be no emotional connection there?
Let's say your H is away on a business trip for a month. He took nude pictures of you before leaving so he could masturbate to them in your absence. Do you think he'd feel the same way masturbating to those pictures as he would to published pornographic materials?
I think there is a distinct difference there because of the association and emotional connection to the person.
We could really mess up this conversation if the H looked at his W's nude pictures INSTEAD of having sex with her when the opportunity was there. That'd be weird...but it'd probably also fall in the category of a sexual addiction that was detrimental to the marriage...so, different topic.

Smile

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KS41:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong>sex is good, lust is bad.... those are the labels we use to categorize sexual focus. Porn is about lust, it is a celebration of sex for sex alone. Healthy sex is only manifested in actual procreation acts (which unfortuneately does make prostitution and promiscuity normal sort of), or in the context of a relationship...porn meets neither of these standards, and is therefore harmful. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, if lust is for your spouse, since that's in the context of a relationship, that kind of lust is okay? If you are looking at nude photos of your wife and getting aroused, is that still porn? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb....could be. Lust is a label that defines inappropriate sexual focus. That is why we have the word, so by definition all lust is bad....but when is something lust can be discussed. The standard is "appropriate" and appropriate means emotionally, psychologically, physically, spiritually, socially....healthy. We have come to use lust in place of passion when referring to spouses, that is sloppy use of language. Thinking of ones spouse in a sexual manner is passion, likewise admiring her intelligence, her compassion, her leadership, her cooking, or whatever can all reflect a "passion" for ones spouse, and marriage. That would certainly include nude picture/painting, could include an erotic audio tape, or anything else that is reminiscent of the sexual bond....however, if one thinks of their spouse as a possesion for their sexual gratification, and spends an excessive focus on such, then one is lusting...and it is wrong, and materials used could be called porn.

This is really no different than asking can a spouse be raped by their mate....some would say no, the spouses body is theirs, and permission is not needed...and that in fact was the "rule" for 1000's of years. We now recognize permission is an important part of healthy sex, and call forced spousal sex what it is...rape. Likewise beyond healthy marital passion, lies unhealthy marital lust....the point being, lust is not dependent on the status of the lust object...it is a determination made about the psychological condition of the lust"er".

There are additonal possibilities as well, if one showed such pictures to another, that would be pornographic usage. If one secretly used such materials for masturbation, that would be a pornographic usage.

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Dilbert:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>Sexuality is the ultimate PERSONAL issue. It's where insecurity lies with it's deepest roots. Adequacy is not just a male issue, ok?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, I'll take a shot at it. You won't even have to triple-dog-dare me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy some pages back:
<strong>Wives want sexual fulfillment without worrrying about doing something wrong, without the worry of trying to please him, without the same old same old.....

Most of all, wives want to feel desired and wanted by their husbands.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Indeed, it is a direct flip in the sense that you've swapped the gender-specific pronouns.

But, are you submitting that women really feel the same way about sex as men do? I challenge the basic premise that we can simply plug in pronouns representing either gender into any statement and deal accurately with how men or women feel about any topic.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do submit that women feel inadequate sexually when their husbands are hypnotically attracted to airbrushed phony perfection. Men are given a false sense of what womanhood is, as well as what SF is all about and a woman senses when she doesn't measure up. Thus, my switching pronouns in Scrum's representation is totally appropriate. When a woman vehemently cannot POJA her husband's porn penchant, typically she feels exactly that she will not measure up in creativity, pleasing him, etc. etc. etc. - go back to the quote again - everything in that quote is EXACTLY what a woman feels about sexual performance when porn is competing for her husband's attention.

Bridge - or any other RC activity needs to be POJA'd. If husband is not enthusiastic about Bridge, his wife, who loves and cares about her husband and her marriage, will find another activity that she can do happily with her husband, or work with her husband on some point that makes him enthusiastic about Bridge. If she wants a good marriage, she will work with it, just as he will if he wants a good marriage.

I guess that's the bottom line of this whole discussion. We're not talking about healthy marriages with these kind of conflicts, whether it be a lack of RC or SF.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>How does porn jive with the "sexual exclusivity" that should govern a marital relationship?</strong> On this point we'll have to agree to disagree. If my W and I decide to watch something risqué or even pornographic (and the distinction there is quite the slippery slope), it's between us (exclusively between us I might say) and perfectly acceptable.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We're not talking about viewing "together" activities in the sense of the conflict here, are we? The scenario you bring up as a disagreement is a POJA - you both decide. It's still mutually exclusive because it's with each other in the sense of POJA.

Your point that two wrongs don't make a right is spot-on! And the chicken-egg analogy works in what caused the problem in the first place - the woman not liking sex because she has to risk being vulnerable in a competition-with-porn sense, or the porn showing up because the woman withholds. Again, neither of these are marriage-building activities.

I,m really lost on why men won't answer Kayla's questions??

why do you think it is different when a woman wants SF w/o the worries of doing something wrong or not living up to some expectation...or w/o worrying if she is pleasing him???

i can honestly say that the biggest turn on for me is feeling wanted and desired by my husband.

so, what is so different here?

Dilbert,
you mentioned that women and men think of sex differently, so how can we just change the pronowns?

....i don't see where it makes any difference....do you believe that women want to feel this way too??

i'm not so sure about the comment that men turn to porn when the wife refuses them.......
we see over and over again where that is not the issue.

i think H's would do themselves a big favor to REALLY THINK about why it is they really turn to porn.....what are they getting out of it?
besides an orgasm,
which might very well be better spent on thier wifes....even if it does take a little more effort and communication.

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

As I have said several times recently, I think the dynamic here is far more complicated. And goes far beyond sex.

To me, one of the typical scenarios goes like this. Husband wakes up. Smells funny smell and house seems chilly. Investigates and finds the furnace is broken. Goes to work. Boss yells at him. Furnace guy calls: heater exchanger is dead, warranty expired at it will cost $2000 to get a new one. Phone rings, biggest customer calling to cancel a large order.

Guy comes home. Feels like crap. Wants to medicate his "bad day". At this point, some guys go to the gym and work out. Some turn to alcohol or drugs. And some ask their wife for sex. Sex is a VERY powerful transquilizer, especially for men.

Turns out his wife is not in the mood because he was angry, upset or otherwise off-putting when he got home. Or he appears weak and needy and hence unattractive. Or she correctly intuits that husband wants the sex as medication, not out of feelings of love.

Now, for the guy whose "drug of choice" is sex, he still needs his fix. After all, he is still upset about the furnace, boss, customer, etc. His wife has turned him down. So he turns to his second choice. Porn and masturbation. As access to porn becomes easier, more and more men find this to be their preferred form of anesthesia.

But realize that his desire for porn isn't about sex. It is about medicating his anxiety. Here is where the wife can be a big help. She can help him explore other more productive methods for dealing with stress.

However, this is a difficult path to navigate. For the couple to work on this together, the husband has to admit his weaknesses. His anxiety. His fear. And as we all know, those are not attractive traits to women. So the guy is going to be reluctant to admit them to his wife, unless she makes it very safe for him to be Radically Honest with her.

And as I have said before, providing lots of sex isn't likely to solve the problem. It might. It provides short term pain relief and ego boost. If the couple is lucky, the issues that are causing anxiety get solved quickly. So it APPEARS that the sex was the issue and the solution.

But it wasn't. It was just medicine for the symptoms. Many times, the underlying causes of the husband's anxiety continue long after the "boost" from sex wears off. In that case, the guy is still going to be drawn to porn so he can spend some time in a fantasy world where he is secure, powerful and in control. Not saying this is mature, but it is often the dynamic that must be addressed.

And the wife who has diligently applied lots of sex, only to find that her husband isn't happier and still wants porn, is going to be LESS interested in helping him deal with his fear and anxiety.

That is why I keep saying to women, if your husband has a porn problem despite your providing sex, stop thinking of it as a sex problem. Think of it as a fear and anxiety problem. And give your husband a safe place to come to you with his fears. If all you do is yell at him about the porn, he is going to feel even worse about himself and even less likely to share his true feelings with you.

Not trying to excuse porn. It stinks. I find myself using less and less of it these days. Even though our sex life still isn't anything close to what I wish it would be. But that is a whole 'nother rant. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: holdingontoit ]</small>

But Hold,
what makes you think it's so different for women.

that is exactly the same way i feel when my sexual advances get turned down or put off.

i don't know where you get that women are turned off by men who admit their insecurities and fears and will be vulnerable w/ her.
i find that one of the biggest turn ons.
that and when he will explore mine w/ me.

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

Interesting holding, and well presented. I would need to see supporting evidence to believe this is a common porn scenario though.

Lets substitute heroin, or alcohol, for porn....no question that regardless of issues, the medication is not ok, no matter whether the user is "understood" or not. That is the argument (at least mine), porn is a choice, and individual choice, and you don't choose it...ever....for any reason....and it is not anyones (including spouse) obligation in the slightest to "help" you resist, or give it up. Nor do I believe anyone can even actively drive another to self-medicate in an inappropriate way. The most fridgid, hateful, sexually absent, meanspirited, insensitive, and uncaring woman in the world has not a smidgen, not even a teensy weensy bit of responsibility for her H using porn.

Porn is NOT sex, it is a perversion of sex. Males do not need sex, otherwise celibacy would not exist as a mainstream life choice. Clearly males have the ability to go long periods without sex....or even if they masturbate as a hormonal release, they certainly have no need for porn, or fantasy to do so. This issue is about porn, not masturbation....although oft-times there are efforts to link the two, cause masturbation is a normal sexual behavior.

In any event, a female who would not be receptive to sex because her H is down, and wants comforting probably has other more important issues. My take on women is they are ready willing and able to give sex as a comfort to their mates....provided their mates make a modicum of effort to communicate what their emotional state is. I suppose a man who comes home and vents displaced anger on his unwitting wife should pretty much expect that to put a damper on receiveing consoling sex. Being a wife and understanding does not mean she should just become an object to be used for sexual release (even if she "understands")...the male should be making some kind of reciprocal effort to meet her foreplay needs.

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

sufdb,

yes....that last paragraph. yes.

if my husband would have communicated that need or desire to me..... i would have found it a huge leap at intimacy and a real turn on.

instead he would 'go to his cave" and distance me..where i got confused and then resentful.....

i think men should try to understand this.

on the hand, i admit....when i want him to 'medicate' me w/ sex after a bad day....it can be very difficult to be vulnerable w/ him if he is not receptive to me.

i don't think men and women are as different as we think here....i think we need to reach out to eachother....take a chance.

Because, Nelly, many wives (not all!) are not emotionally prepared or mature to the point that you are. I love my W deeply and hope for reconciliation. But there is no way, in her emotional state through the years, I could bring an issue like this to her. She fell apart at the slightest, and I mean SLIGHTEST, hint of conflict or anything out of her realm of "normal". She, like many women and men both, has EXTREME self-image concerns. She would never be a candidate for POJA, unless she has changed drastically in the 9 months since she left me. Nelly, in a perfect world your method would work, and should work. But there are many of us out here that choose to clam up because we don't want to start an international incident. I commend you highly, again, for your rational approach to this. Some of us wish we had that option, believe me! Some of us just don't feel like it's worth the fallout. Nelly, you are preaching to the choir here. The one's who need to hear your message will likely not be here as this subject, or any "touchy" issue, is VERY intimidating to them.

But, I am open to workable solutions!

Hurting and Hold,

i know your situations are extreme.

but, honestly..for years my husband would have reacted the same way. he hid himself from me because he thought he knew how i would react.
he thought he knew how i truly felt about porn.
he thought i would look at him as week and unmanly. and he didn't even want to face those feelings in himself, let alone let me seem him like that.....

but, i am trying to say.....i have those feelings too.....we all do.
we should trust and respect our spouses enough to share them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nelly:
<strong>that is exactly the same way i feel when my sexual advances get turned down or put off.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is an important distinction... I don't think I've turned down any sexual advances by my W. When you're the spouse that's getting shot down (and frequently), this is how you end up feeling. You, Nelly, understand this. Not all women get it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nelly:
<strong>
Dilbert,
you mentioned that women and men think of sex differently, so how can we just change the pronowns?

....i don't see where it makes any difference....do you believe that women want to feel this way too??</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think there's a much finer shade of meaning in there somewhere. Generally, I think that men and woman do think differently about sex. Even if all that means is that women recognnize that it's all about intimacy and men don't really think of it so emotionally even though it really is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nelly:
<strong>i'm not so sure about the comment that men turn to porn when the wife refuses them.......
we see over and over again where that is not the issue.

i think H's would do themselves a big favor to REALLY THINK about why it is they really turn to porn.....what are they getting out of it?
besides an orgasm,
which might very well be better spent on thier wifes....even if it does take a little more effort and communication.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How much effort are you suggesting I need to put forth with an unconcious spouse?

It's ultimately a bad decision on the H's part, but I think some Ws make it an easy thing to do.

When my W announces she's going to bed at 9:00 and I say that I'm coming to bed too despite the fact that 9:00 is way earlier than I need to go to bed and she tells me that I shouldn't come to bed unless I'm planning on going to sleep... well there I am. I'm up. I'm alone. It's been weeks since we had sex. If I was hoping for sex and been shut out again it's easy to decide to surf for porn. What do I get out of it? It's a diversion and it's entertaining. To some degree it's getting back at my W for shutting me out. And for the record, I've had more orgasms fantasizing about my W than I've had either having sex with my W or fantasizing about anyone else (from porn or otherwise). And those fantasies about my W, well, they're not my W's face overlaid on some scene from a porno. Most of the time, I fantasize about previous good sex I've had with my W. Sorry if that's TMI.

We don't disagree with you but we don't have the freedom to approach the subject, or any subject like this, not necessarily porn. I don't have the porn problem personally but it wouldn't make any difference what the issue was - she can't handle it. I understand why now, really. I didn't understand why when she was still at home because she withheld critical info about her past from me. Nelly, really - we're with you on this.

that's not TMI Dilbert.....i liked hearing that.
maybe your wife would too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Honestly, i can't imagine a wife who wouldn't want to know that she was the object of her husbands fantasies and not some porn queen.

i,m sorry if i don't get this. maybe,i really don't....
but, there was a time that i wasn't as interested in sex w/ my H and if i go back there.....
this is what i remember.

i didn't feel sexy when i was w/ him.
when we had sex,i felt rushed, so i hardly orgasmed.

when i feel sexy, i make sure he doesn't rush me.....and i always orgasm and i always want more.

and....knowing he's looking at porn stars and thinking he prefers them......doesn't make me feel very sexy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but, i am trying to say.....i have those feelings too.....we all do.
we should trust and respect our spouses enough to share them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nelly, you need to understand that you are a remarkable woman. Your husband is a lucky man. Believe it. Not all women are like you. There are so many women who absolutely fly off the handle with things much less sensitive than sex and pornography. There are women who make their husbands wish they were never born thus making those men never want to risk another outburst like it...thus, cannot trust them to handle certain topics. That all goes against the idea that not trusting your spouse with the truth is a disrespectful judgement...but when the spouse goes berzerko, that's not really following MB "rules", either.
My stepmom was like this...absolutely neurotic. Her friends were like that, too.
It's so very sad...but it happens all the time.

Smile

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The most fridgid, hateful, sexually absent, meanspirited, insensitive, and uncaring woman in the world has not a smidgen, not even a teensy weensy bit of responsibility for her H using porn.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe not, but she does have a responsibility to meet his most important emotional needs.
I personally think that a husband who is consistently refused sex, with his wife withholding for long periods of time, should receive a free pass to pornville. The smart and MB thing to do, of course, is get to the root of the problem together and discover why she is withholding. If like some people I know, she's doing it to be a b**** and control him, then I don't see why porn is so out of the question.

Smile

thank you for saying that, smile.
and i think you you know how much i respect your courage and perseverence too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
and your heart, i can tell you have a great heart.

honestly though, i flew off the handle for years, about lots of things. not because i am selfish and demanding, but because i didn't understand, and i wanted to.....and i wanted him to talk to me......i wanted to understand him so i could love him better......and i hear many women hear complain about the porn the same way.

i think men might be able to love thier women better if they understood them. or atleast let them see that they are puting forth the effort to try.
what goes around, comes around.

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nelly:
<strong>he thought i would look at him as week and unmanly. and he didn't even want to face those feelings in himself, let alone let me seem him like that .....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. Exactly. And you, being an extraordinary person, finally found a way to make it safe for him to open up to you. To you, the trust and intimacy he displayed by opening up to you more outweighed any negative implications from the message he communicated. Not every spouse reacts with so much compassion to a negative message.

Not all of us make it safe for our spouses to be honest. Mrs. Hold told me today that I didn't make it safe for her, so that is something I will have to work on. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

And not all of our spouses make it safe for us to be honest with them.

That is why I am trying to give some women another way to look at porn. To make it easier for her to reach out to her husband with compassion. Not because porn is acceptable or justified. But because fear and weakness are so hard for a man to admit.

And (please correct me if I am wrong about this) much easier for a woman to accept than negative messages about AS or SF. Am I wrong? I mean, it isn't easy to accept that your husband is an alcoholic or drug addict either. But isn't it easier to not become defensive or spiteful when the issue is your husband's fear and weakness? Rather than any imagined shortcomings in the AS or SF area?

That is all I am trying to communicate. That if you thought about porn as a bad means of self-medication. Like drugs or alcohol. Then it is easier not to take it personally. If it isn't about sex. Isn't about his wanting other women. Or finding them more attractive than you. Doesn't that make it easier for you to offer help?

Whereas if the guy really is using porn because he doesn't enjoy or desire sex with you. Finds other women more attractive. And isn't willing to commit to being monogamous in spirit. I would think that would be much harder to forgive. No?

Perhaps to you the content of the message doesn't matter much. If so, I admire you. But I think for most spouses (men and women) it does. I think that there are lots of spouses who would find it MUCH easier to say "thank you for sharing" if the message is "things are going poorly at work and I don't know how we will find the money to pay for the new furnace" as opposed to "you are fat, ugly and lousy in bed".

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: holdingontoit ]</small>

"you are fat, ugly and lousy in bed!"???

well, if that were the truth and my husband really felt that way.....yes, i'd want to know that and i sure would wonder why he was staying married to me and trying to have sex with me.
because i sure wouldn't want to have sex w/ him if he talked to me like that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
would you still want to have sex w/ someone who told you that?


now, he did say some other things that were not very nice to me when he was trying to blame me for why he didn't want to talk about sneeking porn. and i'm sure some were based on the his ideas of the truth.
and i took them as truth and it hurt and i had to deal with that......and still do.


guess your last paragraph threw me......in answer to your first question.....yes, i found it much easier to understand and relate to the fact that he was human and had concearns and insecurities around his sexuality.......same as i did.
and i know i have thanked you in the past for posting about that....it helped me feel less offended and it made it easier for me to approach him in a non defensive way.

and i am only trying to give some men some insight into why your wifes may not feel like having sex w/ you.
she wants to feel desired.
and, if you can't make her feel that....then there is a problem.
because maybe that is where men and women are different when it comes to sex.
most woman do not want to just "have sex" w/ a H who doesn't desire her....just for the sake of having sex.
the only way i could do that was if i really disliked the guy and just wanted to use him for an orgasm.
and if i disliked him that much, i wouldn't want to be married to him.
make sense?

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nelly:
<strong> "you are fat, ugly and lousy in bed!"???

because i sure wouldn't want to have sex w/ him if he talked to me like that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
would you still want to have sex w/ someone who told you that?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, let's hope few husbands would say those words out loud. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

But isn't that what most women HEAR when their husband says "yes, I use porn"? Isn't that what women THINK inside their own heads when they catch their husband using porn? Maybe not those exact words. But isn't that close to what you meant when you said "I didn't feel very sexy when my husband was using porn"? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

yeah...something like that.
i edited my last post.....see if that makes any sense to you?

i knew i wasn't fat or ugly. i knew i could be great in bed, when i felt it... i also knew i wasn't perfect and i did have a few hang ups.
i never knew what he was after....more enthusiasm, to feel like an accomplished lover...for me to let him know that.....
he didn't want to talk about that stuff.
he never asked if i had an orgasm or how i preferred to.
and i assumed he was ok w/ everything because because he always came.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But isn't that what most women HEAR when their husband says "yes, I use porn"? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've always known that guys use porn. It's something that guys do. My grandfather, father, and brother all have porn stashes. It wasn't until MB that I started "hearing" voices and feeling insecure at all.
It wasn't really until MB when I found out about sex addictions and porn addictions that I felt like I had to compete with porn or feel threatened by it.
Now, if I wasn't getting enough sex by my own standards and he was using porn, then the voices would kick in. I'd think there was something wrong with me, something I was doing or not doing to make him unhappy, unfulfilled. But, as is, I can't really complain.

Smile

i pretty much knew that all guys looked at porn.
i had guy friends and brothers, i knew they looked at magazines.
i knew my H had them when we first met....i figured he masturbated to them, but i didn't give that much thought.

it was the feeling of him looking for SF elsewhere that upset me and that i didn't understand. i was there and willing and i would much rather have sex w/ him than masturbate. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ....if i was going to look elsewhere.....it would be because i was interested in someone else, so i was confused by that.

and yes, once we were married and living togetherand having sex regularly....... and every once in awhile i would catch him w/ it....it did make me feel a little insecure about my sex- appeal. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by holdingontoit:
<strong>Guy comes home. Feels like crap. Wants to medicate his "bad day". At this point, some guys go to the gym and work out. Some turn to alcohol or drugs. And some ask their wife for sex. Sex is a VERY powerful transquilizer, especially for men. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Holding, this is really an interesting thought for me, and makes clearer what my H has often tried to tell me (but it's just such a foreign concept for me, I have a hard time getting it!).

For him, sex is truly the cure for just about anything. Bad day at work, not feeling well physically, want to celebrate a good thing? Sex just makes him feel better. Since I tend to be one of those "everything needs to be just right" this has been incomprehensible for me, although I usually go along for the ride.

Thanks for this analogy.

Nelly - great comments and you are, again, to be commended for making it appealing and inviting for your H to open up. If you remember, I ask you several months ago if you would be willing to counsel my wife and you said "yes". She could learn much from you.

Smile - You have a maturity much beyond your years. I still don't agree with you on the porn issue but you do make logical points as to why a man would turn to porn when rejected by W. Some men to turn alcohol/drugs, some to gambling, some to adultery, and so on. I, out of my youthful ignorance, turned into a workaholic and sportsaholic.

KS41 - This is just one of many differences between men and women that the social engineers and feminists refuse to grasp. Men have God-designed physiological makeups and women have separate ones. Neither is wrong - that's why we are so unique. Men and women can complement each other and that's the grand design by God at creation. Feminists want to make men women, and women men. Pop phychologists exhort men to discover their "feminine side" and women to discover their "maleness side". Doesn't work! Isn't it fulfilling and healthy when we accept each other's uniqueness, communicate, and have fun with each other?

Hold - great insights, as usual!

"i pretty much knew that all guys looked at porn.
i had guy friends and brothers, i knew they looked at magazines.
i knew my H had them when we first met....i figured he masturbated to them, but i didn't give that much thought.

it was the feeling of him looking for SF elsewhere that upset me and that i didn't understand. i was there and willing and i would much rather have sex w/ him than masturbate. ....if i was going to look elsewhere.....it would be because i was interested in someone else, so i was confused by that.

and yes, once we were married and living togetherand having sex regularly....... and every once in awhile i would catch him w/ it....it did make me feel a little insecure about my sex- appeal."

NELLY...this is my life exactly, too....

I just wish that, as holding explained and KS commented on, that my H would always at least *ask* me first, rather than withdraw.

But anyway...yes, it always always always makes me feel insecure. And less attractive.

On a happier note, these posts on this thread have been helpful to me.

aaa

I feel a need to make a clarifying post here re "guys" and porn. Males are visual, and have a stronger visual response to sexual images than women, no one is arguing that...However, the notion that guys grow up and have secret stashes of porn, and that is "normal" (ergo ok) is balderdash. That somehow porn itself is ok, it is just that when one gets married it is a poja issue re the wife feelings is more balderdash. Healthy males DO NOT use porn, do not need porn, and recognize the usage of porn for the psychological dysfunction it is.

"Needing" porn, or recreational use of porn, is identical to trying to normalize using drugs (anything you don't medically need that alters your body/brain chemistry), alcohol, smoking, promiscuity, SD (sado/masochism), etc. No one "needs" any of this stuff, and it all diminishes/injures the user.

There are LOTS of males who did not collect/view porn growing up, that rejected efforts by other males to involve them, realizing it was not a good thing. And who do not, and will not, use porn as adults for any reason. Has every male seen a picture (porn, not academic or art) of a naked woman (the world owes a great debt to hugh hefner...barf)...probably. If a male happens acoss a piece of porn laying (or displayed) about, will he look at it....probably, but that is not nearly the same thing as actively pursuing, and using porn....healthy males do not do so. (for all the reasons I listed elsewhere).

As a young male (who never had the "talk" with anyone qualified to do so), I was clueless re girls and sexuality. I had opportunity to view playboy (someone always seems to have one....probably often from their screwed up fathers judging by the female observations in this thread), and I did look, it was interesting, mysterious, and caused funny feelings. But it also felt dangerous, and I had no desire to pursue porn, or accumulate a stash, nor did I associate with those who did....but I was still interested in girls..alot.

As a young adult male I had occassion to be persuaded by my peers to go see a movie...a XXX movie, at the last momement I demurred. Another time I was persuaded to go to a bar featuring women, turns out they danced naked, and performed sex acts...it was titillating, but also made me sick inside....was an awful experience. needless to say I was done with those friends...and my resolve firmed to purposefully avoid porn and it's ilk. Later I came to understand the true nature of porn, why it is unhealthy, and avoiding it now is no more difficult than resisting drugs. As my marriage failed the last 5-7 years had little physical interaction, I felt no need to medicate with porn...it is not something you have to do, it is a choice. We would have no problem identifying someone who medicates with alcohol as an unhealthy coping mechanism, porn is no different.

So for those women who have been confused about porn because father, brothers, boy-friends used it, so you think it is a male thing....it is not. It is a highly destructive (psychologically) behavior, with no upside, and all the males you know have been diminished by it...and reveal something about themselves as well. There are substantial numbers of males who have no need for porn, don't use it, never did (or after an experience or two in the confusion of youth, realized it's danger and stopped), out there. Do not accept porn in your life....if you feel a need to settle (as do those who continue to remain with alcoholics) then understand your marriage will never amount to much (in a relationship sense, your partner is a psychological cripple, and can't hold up their end). Otherwise IMO porn, is one of dealbreakers....as is drugs, alcohol, gambling, abuse, an neglect. I would like to add smoking to that list (cause it insures your spouse, and maybe yourself, will die prematurely) but I won't. IMO marriage should be a place to be the best you can be, and help each other accordingly, not a place to settle and visit your dysfunctions on someone.

sufdb, you wrote:

"Needing" porn, or recreational use of porn, is identical to trying to normalize using drugs (anything you don't medically need that alters your body/brain chemistry), alcohol, smoking, promiscuity, SD (sado/masochism), etc. No one "needs" any of this stuff, and it all diminishes/injures the user

I have long felt that way about porn. it's good to see someone verbalize it. Your saying it doesn't solve my issues, but it's still gratifying to read

aaa

i agree w/ most of what you said there, sufdb.
it's not healthy and it's not ok...and it sucks that the world keeps telling wifes this is just how it is. men are visual. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

but, reality is...it's out there and many husbands/fathers were brought up to think it's fine and dandy and thier right. they don't even understand it.

i don't think i am so special for trying to understand this and deal w/ it......i'm just getting trhrough my life.

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

Sufdb - You bring up some very accurate viewpoints from the psychological aspect. As a Christian I view things more spiritually from a Biblical perspective. This is one area where I am in complete agreement with you. The spiritual and psychological views have common ground here. I view porn pursuance, like any other "sin" issue, as sin brought about by the choices an individual makes. Psychology treats addictions as diseases, we treat addictions as sin with the need for repentance and deliverance. Either way, the effects of addictions are destructive and therefore porn is indeed a 21st Century plague.

Nelly,

It's the conclusions...all wrong....you jump to. Asking a question in a polite manner, even if it's totally off base, is perfectly fine. Agreeing to disagree is fine. Your posts tend to "bait" others (I've checked your posting history) instead of READING what's been posted and begin a dialogue.

Hope I've been able to open your eyes for your own success and well being.

To those who've taken an opinion about my conclusions concerning Porn....just read all the women's posts and the problems it's created. While I've not looked little...already gone into that...I don't have to SEE something to form a valid, accurate opinion. I've never SEEN E.Coli but I know what damage it can do. I've never SEEN cancer cells but I know what damage it does.

I've never experienced or seen child abuse to know it's damaging......and so on.

There are many ways of learning about a subject without accuately experiencing it. Those who "defend" Porn....hope you get the help you so deperately need and your eyes are open to the truth.

Best Wishes,

Pegasus

[edited for spelling]

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: Pegasus959 ]</small>

hey pegusus, was wondering what happened to you.

seems we stole your thread.

didn't mean to bait you at all.....you are right, was making assumptions before asking enough questions.
so, i apologize for that.

perhaps you could fill us in w/ some more details.
what is it you really wanted to talk about when you started this thread?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
However, the notion that guys grow up and have secret stashes of porn, and that is "normal" (ergo ok) is balderdash.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who ever said that because something is normal (i.e. a "norm) that it is something good, ok, wonderful, necessary, etc.?
I consider porn "normal" because...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had opportunity to view playboy (someone always seems to have one....probably often from their screwed up fathers judging by the female observations in this thread)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...because it is everywhere. Not because it is good, but because it has become a norm. I don't determine what is normal and neither do all of the anti-porn people...society determines what is a norm. In our society, the media plays an incredible role in what it is a norm.
So, when I say something is normal, I'm not saying it's good or that I like it, but rather that we must understand that as long as our society presents porn as a norm (for crying out loud, porn is sold in convenience stores and book stores! That's horrible, but it is a norm), we will have to address it as a norm...something that is everywhere, commonplace, a plague if you must.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Healthy males DO NOT use porn, do not need porn, and recognize the usage of porn for the psychological dysfunction it is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, because it is a norm, this statement doesn't settle well with me...except the part about "needing" porn. By using the word "need", this conversation turns to one about addiction, and that is not the same as most men who just get their kicks from porn on occasion, but could go without it the same way I can go without MB.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
"Needing" porn, or recreational use of porn, is identical to trying to normalize using drugs </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed...NEEDING anything can be unhealthy. Most men do not NEED porn, they enjoy it.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">. No one "needs" any of this stuff, and it all diminishes/injures the user.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are misusing the word NEED. I'm a happier person when I get to endulge myself in certain hobbies. I don't NEED them, but I enjoy them even if at other people's expense. By expense, I mean that literally. Because I enjoy photography, I spend money on cameras, printers, software, memory cards and other accessories, printer paper, ink, etc. I could choose a less costly hobby, but that one makes me happy. I don't NEED it to be happy and healthy, but it does make me happy and thereby healthier. My photography hobby could become a danger to my relationship if I started spending TOO much money or TOO much time doing it. It could be far more dangerous to our relationship than porn if it began having a negative effect on our RC time or detracted from the time I'd normally spend meeting his ENs.
But, it doesn't...it hasn't. Neither, has his porn use detracted from my ENs. Because my ENs are all met to the Nth degree, he could be carrying on looking at porn without me ever knowing because it isn't hurting our relationship (then I'd take issue with H&O)...and I think that happens in a lot of relationships. However, if he started abusing that "hobby", thereby taking time away from meeting my needs, spending too much money, or in this case negatively influencing our future children, then we'd have an issue and we'd discuss it. But, used in moderation without detracting from his ability to meet my needs, it's no more evil or unhealthy than me reading some of the horror stories on MB.
Porn, alcohol, caffeine, sports, and all other hobbies all have the same potential to be huge problems in a relationship if both spouse's needs are not being met. It's the user that has the potential to misuse or NEED something. Don't get me wrong, I think that porn as a norm is ugly...it shouldn't be so highly promoted, encouraged, nor convenient. I say this mostly because young males don't usually have the self-control necessary to keep porn from becoming an addiction of some sort (and young women think putting out is cool). That's why alcohol isn't served to teenagers. I think what our society makes of porn is disgusting. There's actually a reality series coming out called "who wants to be a porn star" or something along those lines. Young women compete to be the sexiest sex object in the country! So sad. This leads me to believe that porn is having just as negative of an effect on young women as it is on young men.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do not accept porn in your life....if you feel a need to settle (as do those who continue to remain with alcoholics) then understand your marriage will never amount to much (in a relationship sense, your partner is a psychological cripple, and can't hold up their end). Otherwise IMO porn, is one of dealbreakers....as is drugs, alcohol, gambling, abuse, an neglect. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's a rather huge statement. You're saying that all marriages that accept porn (even if both couples are privy to it and enjoy it) will fail? I have no problem with porn being a dealbreaker in a marriage (hopefully, that is determined and discussed before the vows), but that is a personal choice and does not determine a marriage's success in any definitive way. When the couple does not work together to deal with problems and determine boundaries (on any and all matters), then you've got a recipe for disaster.
I've rambled enough. I think you have every right to create boundaries in your life, but just because you have a boundary that works in your marriage, doesn't mean that it is a necessary boundary in all marriages. IMO, a couple should be far more concerned with meeting ENs and avoiding LBs than every little thing that could or could not become problematic in the relationship.

Btw, Nelly and HPK, thank you for your kind words. I appreciate that, knowing full well that you may both completely disagree with my standpoint.

Respectfully,
Smile

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

Smile, let me clarify normal, we use the word differently.

It is normal to be mugged at 2 am if you go about waving a wad of cash in a crime ridden area of the city....however, that does not make it ok, or something we should just accept or adjust too....even if it is "normal".

If you are just checking the tempratures in a hospital, 98.6 may not be the norm, maybe it is 99.6....however, that is not ok, acceptable, or to be lived with....it is to be combated until the normal human temperature average of 98.6 is achieved.

My use of the word normal in medical/psychological/emotional discussions is about the absolute well-being of the individual....not what may be "normal" in their enviroment. I do not care if porn is wide-spread, and therefore "normal"...it is plague, and a scourge on the well-being of all who partake.....just like drugs, including the supposed ok recreational use of marijuana, or alcohol....it is all UNHEALTHY, ABNORNAL, and to be resisted at all cost. Even if just one individual in a group of hundreds is not using porn, he is normal, the rest are abnormal, and need to stop.

Does that make my position more clear?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Even if just one individual in a group of hundreds is not using porn, he is normal, the rest are abnormal, and need to stop.
Does that make my position more clear? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I disagree. If one in a hundred men does not use porn, that one who doesn't is the outlier, the abnormal one. Abnormal in this case is not bad, but it does mean that the issue has to be addressed in a different way. Calling the porn users all psychologically deranged won't get you nearly as far because you are alienating the majority. I think you make some very good arguments about the negative effects that porn can have on people lacking in self control and morals. I think you make some very good general comments on the potential for harm (thus abstinence from porn is the safest path). However, I think the approach you are taking that claims all porn users are psychologically unhealthy, unstable, or in some other way diseased will keep you from getting your positive message to the larger population...because porn use is a norm, albeit a sad and pathetic one in this society.

Smile

porn has been around since man (or woman) learned how to make dung into watercolor and painted it on cave walls-

get over it-

by today's standards, most of what was painted on those walls-plus, their ceramic artifacts- would be considered porn. and yes, it was to excite sexual urges: in order to reproduce. people used to think that was a good thing, at one time in history.

ya know what?

the human species is thus far not extinct. so, it can't be that destructive.

people just think that everyone has to have the same ideas and values as they do- and anything that differs is wrong... these people are arrogant.

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: misscallaneous ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SmileADay:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Even if just one individual in a group of hundreds is not using porn, he is normal, the rest are abnormal, and need to stop.
Does that make my position more clear? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I disagree. If one in a hundred men does not use porn, that one who doesn't is the outlier, the abnormal one. Abnormal in this case is not bad, but it does mean that the issue has to be addressed in a different way.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I usually don't post on the porn threads because quite honestly the fixation of it on the EN forum makes my skin crawl. I just couldn't let that comment go by without a few of my own. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

A definition of abnormal is deviant ..I wouldn't think that a person who does NOT look at porn is a deviant...no matter how MANY others are doing it. That just isn't a good argument.

It is like I have told my kids... Just because EVERYONE else is doing it...and you choose to NOT do it...it doesn't make you ABNORMAL.

That analogy just doesn't set right with me.

Throw 100 criminals together...99 continue in criminal activity...and 1 chooses not to...and the one that isn't ...is the ABNORMAL (deviant) one??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

You would be better served to have used the word DIFFERENT. The use of the word abnormal isn't fitting.

JMHO
committed

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Throw 100 criminals together...99 continue in criminal activity...and 1 chooses not to...and the one that isn't ...is the ABNORMAL (deviant) one???
You would be better served to have used the word DIFFERENT. The use of the word abnormal isn't fitting.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I chose the word ABNORMAL because that is the word being used in the discussion. I'm sorry you don't like it. ABNORMALor deviant is not defined by being wrong, bad, negative, etc. Many people choose to make that association.
All of my friends could smoke pot, but if I don't, I deviate from that pattern or norm within the crowd. If you want to get scientific about it, when you define normal, you should also define your population that you're describing because what is normal depends on who and what you are referring to.
Abnormal = not the norm.
Definition of normal:
SYLLABICATION: nor·mal
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: nôrml     KEY
ADJECTIVE: 1. Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard, pattern, level, or type; typical: normal room temperature; one's normal weight; normal diplomatic relations.

This is the definition of normal I'm using. I understand if people are using a different definition and I was simply stating that I think "normal" is being misused in my opinion. That doesn't mean I'm right, but my perspective may be valuable to some who wish to be more effective at getting across to others who share my opinion.

If you put 100 people on a secluded island and 99 of them eat grass and leaves while 1 eats the scrumptious pork feasts running around on four legs, does that mean that the carnivore is deviant, wrong, diseased, etc.? No, but he is abnormal because the pattern, trend, norm, predictable behavior is to not eat meat and the grass-eaters are going to find him abnormal and likely disgusting. But, in our society, vegetarians are still a minority, though one that is growing and becoming more and more of a norm. I find them strange for not enjoying the juicy, delectable cows and pigs. But, if I approach vegetarians and call them all weird, abnormal, or deviant, no one is going to listen to me because it has become a norm...normal.

Growing up, I was more mature than my classmates. I didn't experiment with smoking or drugs. I didn't wear gobs of make-up or go to the bathroom in groups. I became a prodigy saxophonist because I practiced a lot while no one else around me did. I was very abnormal, but I don't see that as a bad thing. I had the opportunity to become more successful than those who cared only about their appearance and popularity.

So, the reason I've taken this approach is because your arguments against porn will be better received by a larger population if you take an approach that doesn't alienate the users and acceptors.
Does this make sense?
I'm not discussing the legitimacy of porn so much as a better way to communicate your views so as to get your point across without sounding arrogant, stubborn, or...abnormal.

Smile

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

smile... I don't determine what is normal and neither do all of the anti-porn people...society determines what is a norm.

sufdb...Society plays a role in cultural norms, but has nothing to say about well-being, those are scientific norms, and immutable.

smile... In our society, the media plays an incredible role in what it is a norm.
So, when I say something is normal, I'm not saying it's good or that I like it, but rather that we must understand that as long as our society presents porn as a norm (for crying out loud, porn is sold in convenience stores and book stores! That's horrible, but it is a norm), we will have to address it as a norm...something that is everywhere, commonplace, a plague if you must.

sufdb....Not sure what describing norm that way means in action...the message is still the same, don't do it. But if your point is people will resist the message by saying see, everyone does it, must be ok....then I agree that happens, and presents a certain political reality in combatting norm...but in that case, all the more reason to talk about porn as the scourge it is, and not pussyfoot around about it...as we do here sometimes. In the end the test (of anything) is whether an individual will make healthy choices, if they don't, there are consequences, one of which (in this case) is diminishing your relationships, and quite possibly losing your spouse. In such a case, the leaveing spouse can seek out a healthier individual, and enjoy that consequence....while the porn user can enjoy their porn, somehow I don't think they will be all that happy...ya know?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Healthy males DO NOT use porn, do not need porn, and recognize the usage of porn for the psychological dysfunction it is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">smile...So, because it is a norm, this statement doesn't settle well with me...except the part about "needing" porn. By using the word "need", this conversation turns to one about addiction, and that is not the same as most men who just get their kicks from porn on occasion, but could go without it the same way I can go without MB.

sufdb...I differ. If you can't stop it is an addiction type behavior....if you won't stop (but could) then you are an unworthy marital partner (because you are unsafe, and obviously an idiot)...black and white smile, no gray here....zero tolerance issue.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Needing" porn, or recreational use of porn, is identical to trying to normalize using drugs </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">smile...Agreed...NEEDING anything can be unhealthy. Most men do not NEED porn, they enjoy it.

sufdb...I disagree, it is an addiction most often. I suppose psychopaths enjoy murdering people (some say they do), they aren't addicted, but it still is not ok, and they are not safe people. Porn users are not physically dangerous, but they are psychologically dysfunctional, and that makes them unsafe in relationships...and undesireable as friends either IMO.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">. No one "needs" any of this stuff, and it all diminishes/injures the user.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sad...I think you are misusing the word NEED. I'm a happier person when I get to endulge myself in certain hobbies. I don't NEED them, but I enjoy them even if at other people's expense. By expense, I mean that literally. Because I enjoy photography, I spend money on cameras, printers, software, memory cards and other accessories, printer paper, ink, etc. I could choose a less costly hobby, but that one makes me happy. I don't NEED it to be happy and healthy, but it does make me happy and thereby healthier.

sufdb...If you pursue your hobby obsessively, or in lieu of other more important uses of your finite resources (fianncial, or psychological), you indeed have issues needing resolution. However, the mere choice of activities which express your creativity and such is a good thing, it enhances you....porn is a passive activity with no redeeming value at all. You are mixing up obsessive behavior (whcih is always undesireable despite the obsession) with activities that are inherently unhealthy. Photography is not inherently unhealty, porn is.


smile... Neither, has his porn use detracted from my ENs. Because my ENs are all met to the Nth degree, he could be carrying on looking at porn without me ever knowing because it isn't hurting our relationship (then I'd take issue with H&O)...and I think that happens in a lot of relationships.

sufdb...And he could be smoking pot, or torturing small dogs without your knowledge while meeting your EN's....so what? He would still be screwed up, and sooner or later a price will be paid....and extremely high price. Your standard of how you feel is irrelevant to his unhealthy behavior, my arguments are about the damage to the user, not how well they can carry there booze in your eyes...do you see? True, he is holding his booze better than some, assuming you are a normal female and happy...as well as assuming you are not in denial...but that really means nothing except you can justify (to yourself) being more tolerant...but in fact you are simply enabling his unhealthy behavior...why would you do that?

smile...However, if he started abusing that "hobby", thereby taking time away from meeting my needs, spending too much money, or in this case negatively influencing our future children, then we'd have an issue and we'd discuss it.

sufdb...Because then it affects you directly, that is selfish response. Let's look at smoking, say for the moment somehow the smoke is able to do so without directly impacting you....would you be ok with that? Or would you risk conflict by trying to make him quit? Myself, I would risk conflict, up to and including divorcing a spouse who would not quit smoking, for their benefit. Make the cost high enough, and most will change unhealthy behavior (witness the many spouses who suddenly find out they can lose weight afterall, when the consequence is losing their spouse if they don't). True, a spouse may not change an unhealthy behavior, but IMO that says all one needs to know about their safety and worthiness as a marital partner...

smile...Porn, alcohol, caffeine, sports, and all other hobbies all have the same potential to be huge problems in a relationship if both spouse's needs are not being met.

sufdb...Smile you are attmepting to turn this into a porn is ok if used properly thread. I understand your motivation. If you become convinced porn use is always bad in and of itself, you are confronted with a serious moral dilemma re your marriage, and your how you interct with your spouse. My position is porn usage is always bad, and harms the person using it in a myriad of ways, as well as possible collateral damage. I have explained why that is so, you will believe me or not, and reap the consequences therein (good or bad depending on whether porn usage is bad or not). Be sure you are not letting too much bias influence your analytical efforts.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do not accept porn in your life....if you feel a need to settle (as do those who continue to remain with alcoholics) then understand your marriage will never amount to much (in a relationship sense, your partner is a psychological cripple, and can't hold up their end). Otherwise IMO porn, is one of dealbreakers....as is drugs, alcohol, gambling, abuse, an neglect. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">smile...That's a rather huge statement.

sufdb...Yes it is, it was supposed to be.

smile...You're saying that all marriages that accept porn (even if both couples are privy to it and enjoy it) will fail?

sufdb...I din't say fail (as in divorce, I presume), I said not amount to much... meaning their will be very little real intimacy, porn usage is huge impediment to intimacy. But I understand marriages vary widely, and can be satisfactory enough at shallow levels of intimacy...or that even depth is not wanted anyways, just the convienience of marital lifestyle, and procreation. Perhaps the best word is diminish, to simply observe porn usage diminishes relatioships, there is no exceptions.

smile...I have no problem with porn being a dealbreaker in a marriage (hopefully, that is determined and discussed before the vows), but that is a personal choice and does not determine a marriage's success in any definitive way.

sufdb...Everything both parties do affects marriage, some things more some less...porn usage is huge....It is indeed a personal choice (even if both choose), much like taking drugs is a personal choice, or consuming alcohol....it has nothing to do with enhancing a couple or a marriage, it is a personal selfish orientation.

smile...I think you have every right to create boundaries in your life, but just because you have a boundary that works in your marriage, doesn't mean that it is a necessary boundary in all marriages.

sufdb...Psychological principles cannot be picked and chosen smile, they affect everyone without exception, and one ignores these principles at their own peril. Porn is not a boundary issue, it is a mental health issue. How one reacts to porn usuage in a marriage is a boundary issue...and IMO that boundar is don't let the door hit you in the butt.

Hope that clarify's some more my position on porn.

I think sufdb's point is not far off target. But needs to be put in perspective.

Porn, at its core, is not the most noble or admirable activity. It is clearly a vice. Like smoking and drinking and gambling and "recreational" drug use and extra-marital sex.

Each person has to make a decision about whether and the extent to which they will indulge in these vices. And each person has to decide whether they will enter into and maintain relationships with people who do so. Different people will come to different conclusions.

I think most of us can agree these behaviors shouldn't be encouraged. And use of them "to excess" should be actively discouraged. Even if we cannot agree on what "to excess" means with respect to each activity.

Prohibition of any or all of these has been tried on a society-wide level at various times. Prohibition tends to fail. People find ways to obtain access to their vice(s) of choice. And many of these attempts at prohibition create negative impact on third parties that are arguably worse than the activity being prohibited.

Telling someone else that they absolutely positively shouldn't engage in any of these vices, or maintain relationships with anyone who does, strikes me as being along the lines of prohibition. It MAY work to prevent contact with that particular vice. But it does have other impact.

That doesn't mean that there isn't risk involved when one indulges in these vices. Or maintains a relationship with someone who does. But it means there is clearly a cost involved in cuttign off all contact with anyone involved with that vice.

Not everyone who smoked dies early of cancer or stroke or heart diease. Not everyone who gambles recreationally destroys their family's finances. Not everyone who drinks "socially" drives drunk or becomes an alcoholic. So, just as there is a risk that marrying someone who gambles will turn out to be a mistake, so there is a risk that refusing to date someone who gambles will turn out to be overly cautious.

It is hard to find a partner with a good "fit". To refuse relationships with anyone who indulges in any vice will severely limit one's pool of potential mates. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that someone who doesn't smoke or drink or gamble won't someday take up one of those nasty habits. Perhaps it is less risky to marry someone who has a good track record of keeping their vices under control than to take a chance that a "vice virgin" will be able to resist temptation forever?

So I return (I know, I know, like a broken record - and what phrase are we going to use when there isn't anyone left who remembers what a broken record sounds like? - but I digress) to the point I have made previously.

As Smileaday points out, porn use is rampant in our society. So there are gong to be women who discover that their husband is using porn. What should they do?

Well, my advice would be, react as you would if you caught your husband smoking or drinking or gambling after he promised he wouldn't. You may be angry or hurt or disappointed. It may destroy your trust in him. But you probably wouldn't take it personally quite as personally as when the vice you discover is porn. No? Am I wrong about that?

If someone caught her husband smoking, would she suddenly feel fat or ugly or less sexually attractive? Would she think it was somehow her fault that he chose to smoke? Probably not.

I am not saying it is a GOOD thing that a husband uses porn. I am just trying to help people think about it in a way that makes it easier to validate and deal with it constructively rather than get into a vicious cycle of blame and guilt and resentment and disconnect.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Hope that clarify's some more my position on porn. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, that does help. There were some things in there I misinterpreted. Especially the comment about whether porn use will always result in failure in marriage. I agree that it could consistently result in lower intimacy, thus diminishing the quality of the marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb....Not sure what describing norm that way means in action...the message is still the same, don't do it. But if your point is people will resist the message by saying see, everyone does it, must be ok....then I agree that happens, and presents a certain political reality in combatting norm...but in that case, all the more reason to talk about porn as the scourge it is, and not pussyfoot around about it...as we do here sometimes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was exactly what I was getting at and I think the aggressive approach will reach out to some people while alienating others. I'm not suggesting you should pussyfoot around the issue. All of your strong statments about the negative impact of porn are well-thought out and well presented up until you label people as damaged goods for looking at porn. If your intent is to convince wives that their porn-using husbands need to change, you're doing a decent job. But, if your intent is to reach out to porn users and say, "hey, check this info out...you might want to reconsider your behavior," then calling them sickly individuals won't do much. I think you should keep your focus on the porn itself rather than labeling and condemning the users so much.

I'm with you on the whole smoking issue. And I'm learning more about how I should approach that issue through this conversation than I expected. I think smokers are disgusting. How can they actually choose to destroy their health, diminish their quality of life, and put me and those I love at risk while stinking up the joint? I immediately judge smokers as bad people for making that choice. I could never live with someone who chooses to do that to their bodies. And I see the correlation you are making to porn use.
But, smoking is a norm...a pattern, trend, etc. Smokers are not deviants. My statement that smokers are disgusting won't be well received by the wonderful MBers here who smoke. They'll immediately see me as rude, arrogant, and controlling. They see themselves as good people, good parents, husbands, wives, sons, daughters, workers, etc...and they probably are. But, they won't give a darn about the things I have to say about smoking because I've alienated myself. Now, if I could get enough people to jump on my bandwagon and run around smoker-bashing to the extreme, there might be a positive effect (positive through my eyes), but chances are even that would cause the smokers to become more annoyed and withdraw. I have a better chance at making my point by rehashing the dangers of smoking than belittling the smokers. That way, I can stick to the facts and not be wrongly judged for my own personal views.
Do you see what I'm getting at?

Smile

all vices are not created equal... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Nice effort holding, and make some valid points about reactions and such...there are different aspects to consider in this issue. Myself, I have been mostly addressing the porn is really ok, just misunderstood, and wifey should just accept/adapt part of the issue...hence the heavy handed approach....anything less suggests this is not as serious as it really is....sodom and gommorah come to mind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


I guess the issue is where does one draw the zero tolerance line. Would we be advising the spouse of a heroin user to find a way to live with it? Probably not. But we may find ourselves advising someone who drinks to excess on occassion, to adapt and live with it...recreational gambling, hmm.... the occasional trip to the slots seems fairly bengign...that's the point holding, all vices are not equal....IMO zero tolerance re porn usage is the way to go....there are not enough potential "good" things about someone to offset porn use....so I "preach" zero tolerance, I think the consequences or associateing with a porn user are not much different than a heroin user, or chronic alcoholic.

interesting point, Holding.

i felt just as disconected and hurt when my husband lied to me about drinking and smoking and other independant behaviour......and, actually, yes...it did make me question my sex-appeal...or atleast HIS attraction to me.... and commitment to our relationship.

somehow, when i found out about him sneeking porn.........it just felt more like a slap in the face. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

just some info if any guys out there are wondering about what your wife feels...instead of justifying it all away as "her problem".

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong>Myself, I have been mostly addressing the porn is really ok, just misunderstood, and wifey should just accept/adapt part of the issue ...

IMO zero tolerance re porn usage is the way to go .... there are not enough potential "good" things about someone to offset porn use .... so I "preach" zero tolerance, I think the consequences or associateing with a porn user are not much different than a heroin user, or chronic alcoholic. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess where I have problems is in thinking that there isn't anything "helpful" about porn use. I don't like porn. I agree there are many bad things about it. And porn does harm to both the user and those around him. It is like a drug that has harmful side effects. But I don't want anyone suffering from this to ignore the "effective" aspect of porn.

If your husband is using porn to self-medicate. As a crutch. To deal with an unpleasant reality. Or to hide from it. The porn may well be accomplishing its task. Asking him to dump the porn cold turkey has a significant risk of failure. Because it does nothing to address the underlying anxiety that is triggering the porn use.

So porn may well be a BAD coping strategy. But the solution isn't to leave your husband with NO coping strategy. If you want him to be enthusiastic about changing his behavior, you would be wise to help him find a BETTER coping strategy.

What that will be depends on each person's situation. And what is causing their anxiety.

Which is where I get back to Smileaday's point. Calling your husband sick and deviant and sinful is unlikely to help him cope with whatever is driving him to use porn. More likely it will make him feel even worse about himself and more in need of a crutch. Making even harder the wife's job of helping him implement a new coping strategy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb....Not sure what describing norm that way means in action...the message is still the same, don't do it. But if your point is people will resist the message by saying see, everyone does it, must be ok....then I agree that happens, and presents a certain political reality in combatting norm...but in that case, all the more reason to talk about porn as the scourge it is, and not pussyfoot around about it...as we do here sometimes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">smile...This was exactly what I was getting at and I think the aggressive approach will reach out to some people while alienating others. I'm not suggesting you should pussyfoot around the issue. All of your strong statments about the negative impact of porn are well-thought out and well presented up until you label people as damaged goods for looking at porn. If your intent is to convince wives that their porn-using husbands need to change, you're doing a decent job.

sufdb...I am with you, and I am aware of the points you make. Indeed I adjust my message as needed re my immediate goal and audience. For the moment my goal is not to reach any porn users (who are certainly lurking), but to enable/encourage women to take a tough stand. I have status to do that because I am male, the message is much less compelling from a female. I probably have gone a bit over the top in defining porn users as low-life losers without redepmtion. I suppose some can maintain a semblance of worthiness (as is your H apparently)....My outrage is of two minds...the first is how can people be so incredibly ingnorant not to realize they are killing themself, and those in their lives with this porn usage (much like alcohol abusers), the other is an aggressive (male behavior <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) to any male who thinks they can defend their usage as a good healthy activity that enhances themselves and their relationships...(as opposed to those who understand it is a vice, and they really should stop, but just can't seem too). I have a special place of contempt and anger towards those who promote activities that demean and diminish human beings (you should see me go off on racists, or misogynists). I suppose I should be more temperate, but hey, I'm not, I have my hot buttons...and porn is one of them.

smile...But, if your intent is to reach out to porn users and say, "hey, check this info out...you might want to reconsider your behavior," then calling them sickly individuals won't do much. I think you should keep your focus on the porn itself rather than labeling and condemning the users so much.

sufdb...I agree, chastisment accepted. Indeed were I actually addressing an audience of porn users I would be using a very different approach.

smile...I'm with you on the whole smoking issue. And I'm learning more about how I should approach that issue through this conversation than I expected. I think smokers are disgusting. How can they actually choose to destroy their health, diminish their quality of life, and put me and those I love at risk while stinking up the joint?

sufdb...Preaching to the choir. But ya know, most of the smokers I know are well aware of this, properly remorseful (just addicted), try to accomodate, wish they could quit..etc.

smile...I immediately judge smokers as bad people for making that choice.

sufdb...I do too, sort of...but first wait to see if they are obnoxious about "their" choice. If they are just addicted, I guess I am willing to be understanding, but they need to be trying to quit...ya know?

smile...But, smoking is a norm...a pattern, trend, etc. Smokers are not deviants.

sufdb...I am not sure where deviant came in. I don't think porn usage is deviant per se (but it may be, and often is), I just think porn users are psychologically crippled and make unsafe relationship partners, and promote zero tolerance from everyone who has contact with them.

smile...My statement that smokers are disgusting won't be well received by the wonderful MBers here who smoke.

sufdb...I dunno, this is a bright bunch, and I am sure most of the smokers know they are disgusting (in this regard). Doesn't make them bad people though. Nor is a porn user a bad person (although they might be, and more chance they are than one who is not IMO).

smile...They'll immediately see me as rude, arrogant, and controlling. They see themselves as good people, good parents, husbands, wives, sons, daughters, workers, etc...and they probably are. But, they won't give a darn about the things I have to say about smoking because I've alienated myself.

sufdb...well smile, maybe maybe not. But then again everything that needs to be said about smoking has already been said, so reaction is probably more along the lines of ho hum. But yeah, run about getting in all the smokers faces, and someone will run out of patience and their decorum slip.

smile...Now, if I could get enough people to jump on my bandwagon and run around smoker-bashing to the extreme, there might be a positive effect (positive through my eyes), but chances are even that would cause the smokers to become more annoyed and withdraw. I have a better chance at making my point by rehashing the dangers of smoking than belittling the smokers.

sufdb...yep. But don't underestimate the judicious usage of outrage as a modification technique. Especially when you observe small children bathed in smoke...and you point out vigorously to the smoker they are killing them.

smile...Do you see what I'm getting at?

sufdb...yes smile, I got your point, nicely done.

agreed again holding, you are doing a fine job of illustrating how to go about dealing with the revelation of porn usage. Lest their be some misunderstanding, I am not advocateing you file for divorce the moment you become aware of a spouse's porn usage...I would be in a agreement with holdings point that one needs to find out why...but the goal should be absolutely clear, the porn must stop, or (IMO) the marriage will end.

Re your plug for porn as a "drug" albeit a dangerous drug having some therapeutic effect. Sure, I agree, but such things are administered under very controlled conditons and monitored by trained personel....heck morphine is nothing but heroin, and I concur with the therapeutic use of marijuana. I am not in agreement with self-medicateing with porn, the porn user should be seeking professional help.

holding....Which is where I get back to Smileaday's point. Calling your husband sick and deviant and sinful is unlikely to help him cope with whatever is driving him to use porn. More likely it will make him feel even worse about himself and more in need of a crutch. Making even harder the wife's job of helping him implement a new coping strategy.

sufdb...another clarification. I am rarely in favor of directly making such statements to an individual. But I do believe in tough love, even if you are telling them to leave, do so with firmness, and truth, but also compassion and goodwill.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For the moment my goal is not to reach any porn users (who are certainly lurking), but to enable/encourage women to take a tough stand.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is how I interpreted your intent and I think that's why I've hung in here on this thread. I don't think that encouraging women to be unrelenting and demanding in their marriage (i.e.black/white, zero tolerance controlling behavior) is a safe approach. Lots of women take a tough stand on porn and what I've found is that the women who do that sacrifice honesty in their relationship because the men begin to be secretive.
I don't think black and white, zero tolerance is the most effective approach. Educating yourself on the potential addiction and harms that porn can cause, educating yourself on the reasons men tend to turn to porn, and educating yourself on effective spousal communication seems the better approach to me. If you take too tough of a stand, honesty and openness inevitably go out the window, and you will most likely have a more difficult time addressing the root of the problem which is resulting in porn use.
I disagree with your approach, not your morals and ideals.

Smile

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SmileADay:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For the moment my goal is not to reach any porn users (who are certainly lurking), but to enable/encourage women to take a tough stand.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is how I interpreted your intent and I think that's why I've hung in here on this thread. I don't think that encouraging women to be unrelenting and demanding in their marriage (i.e.black/white, zero tolerance controlling behavior) is a safe approach. Lots of women take a tough stand on porn and what I've found is that the women who do that sacrifice honesty in their relationship because the men begin to be secretive.
I don't think black and white, zero tolerance is the most effective approach. Educating yourself on the potential addiction and harms that porn can cause, educating yourself on the reasons men tend to turn to porn, and educating yourself on effective spousal communication seems the better approach to me. If you take too tough of a stand, honesty and openness inevitably go out the window, and you will most likely have a more difficult time addressing the root of the problem which is resulting in porn use.
I disagree with your approach, not your morals and ideals.

Smile </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok, more later...but what do you do when the softer approach fails and the male blows you off, and continues to do what he wants?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok, more later...but what do you do when the softer approach fails and the male blows you off, and continues to do what he wants? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The person who blows you off with a softer approach is the same person who is likely to lie in order to keep you quiet or avoid divorce. How do you define "softer approach"? Can you give me an example of a soft approach?
The way I was interpreting soft approach was to equate it to being less aggressive and more understanding. If one's goal is to eliminate porn because s/he believes it is inherently evil and wrong, then I think the goal is off and the result will be undesirable because either the user won't stop or the user will stop and likely hold resentment. The goal should be to discover what has led the spouse to use porn, what is causing the spouse to continue using porn, and why the non-user really wants the porn to go away. Zero tolerance, B/W does not address these things explicitly. Zero tolerance, B/W is controlling and close-minded. While being aggressive may work for some people, I don't think it makes for a safe general statement about porn use. There is simply too great a risk of sacrificing honesty.

Smile

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SmileADay:
<strong>The way I was interpreting soft approach was to equate it to being less aggressive and more understanding. The goal should be to discover what has led the spouse to use porn, what is causing the spouse to continue using porn, and why the non-user really wants the porn to go away.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, exactly.

That is why I am trying to help women see porn a little differently. So it is slightly easier for her to be supportive. Hard to be understanding when you assume his porn use is triggered by his dissatisfaction with your body or your shared sex life. Much easier to be understanding if you assume his porn use is triggered by fear and anxiety over his job, his receding hairline, penis size, lack of ejaculatory control, etc.

That doesn't mean porn is ALWAYS about something else. Sometimes the guy IS a selfish pig. And his porn use is about objectifying women and having unlimited access to emotionalally empty sexual gratification. So I'm not saying that NEVER happens.

Just saying that while you are exploring his reasons for using porn. And realizing that initially even he might not know why he does. Or be sufficiently honest to admit it (even to himself). Better to start with giving him the benefit of the doubt rather than jumping to unflattering conclusions.

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: holdingontoit ]</small>

Hmmm...this is morphing into how does one deal with the porn user rather than is porn normal, and ok, and should be allowed....is that correct?

So we (who are still talking) are in agreement porn is not ok, must be stopped? I can comment on this. I have contemplated smiles suggestions and make the observation that is how a woman deals with stuff....it is not how a man does, and therein may lie some of the difference in how I am being perceived.

Also holding, we are drifting off into statistics now, and I guess I have no idea really...but in my travels my sense of porn use is there are a lot of male porn users who are not safe marital partners, and never will be....some are out an out pigs for sure....but more likely they are just males who respond poorly to domestication.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm...this is morphing into how does one deal with the porn user rather than is porn normal, and ok, and should be allowed....is that correct?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, with 7 pages of any topic, I think you should expect some degree of morphing. I think very little of this thread has talked about the whether porn is good or bad.
What do you mean by whether it should be allowed? Do you mean whether a wife should allow her husband to look at porn?
That sounds strange to me thus far in my relationship. My guy doesn't stop doing things because I do not allow him to, he stops because I have convinced him that whatever he's doing isn't worth the money, effort, pain, time, whatever...either to me and/or him. I don't control him...I do influence him and have expectations, but I do not control him (allow him to look at porn or not).

Smile

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SmileADay:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm...this is morphing into how does one deal with the porn user rather than is porn normal, and ok, and should be allowed....is that correct?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, with 7 pages of any topic, I think you should expect some degree of morphing. I think very little of this thread has talked about the whether porn is good or bad.
What do you mean by whether it should be allowed? Do you mean whether a wife should allow her husband to look at porn?
That sounds strange to me thus far in my relationship. My guy doesn't stop doing things because I do not allow him to, he stops because I have convinced him that whatever he's doing isn't worth the money, effort, pain, time, whatever...either to me and/or him. I don't control him...I do influence him and have expectations, but I do not control him (allow him to look at porn or not).

Smile </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you are killing me with this semantic stuff, I am linguistically challenged in some senses...sigh. I figure we all know no one can make anyone do anything at all, is a given....sooooooooooo when I say allow, I mean in the sense of condone, accept, agree with, and visit no consequences upon the porn user. I agree with your description about marital dynamics.

btw, wasn't complaining about the morphing, just observing.

Do you want/expect your H to use porn? If so then you are "allowing" it....so are you?

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you want/expect your H to use porn? If so then you are "allowing" it....so are you?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He knows I'd prefer if he didn't use it. He discusses it openly with me and is completely honest. I know he doesn't want to stop using it (about once a week) and we have agreed upon boundaries. It's an open issue...I can bring it up anytime I want and express any concerns I have.
I have told him that his porn use makes me feel a little insecure about my body, but I have not asked him to stop using it and I don't plan on ever doing that unless one of the determined boundaries is crossed. Those boundaries are 1) he doesn't spend money on it, 2) I don't feel like my SF needs are going unmet, 3) it doesn't open him up to an affair. We've also agreed that those boundaries can be expanded upon.

So, no I don't want/expect him to use porn, but I am "allowing" it by not asking him to stop.
Something I should say is that since I made the decision to "allow" it, he uses it less and I'm less bothered by it and don't feel the same sense of insecurity.

Smile