</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong>sex is good, lust is bad.... those are the labels we use to categorize sexual focus. Porn is about lust, it is a celebration of sex for sex alone. Healthy sex is only manifested in actual procreation acts (which unfortuneately does make prostitution and promiscuity normal sort of), or in the context of a relationship...porn meets neither of these standards, and is therefore harmful. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, if lust is for your spouse, since that's in the context of a relationship, that kind of lust is okay? If you are looking at nude photos of your wife and getting aroused, is that still porn?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, if lust is for your spouse, since that's in the context of a relationship, that kind of lust is okay? If you are looking at nude photos of your wife and getting aroused, is that still porn?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you saying that if you looked at nude pictures of your H that there would be no emotional connection there?
Let's say your H is away on a business trip for a month. He took nude pictures of you before leaving so he could masturbate to them in your absence. Do you think he'd feel the same way masturbating to those pictures as he would to published pornographic materials?
I think there is a distinct difference there because of the association and emotional connection to the person.
We could really mess up this conversation if the H looked at his W's nude pictures INSTEAD of having sex with her when the opportunity was there. That'd be weird...but it'd probably also fall in the category of a sexual addiction that was detrimental to the marriage...so, different topic.

Smile

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KS41:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong>sex is good, lust is bad.... those are the labels we use to categorize sexual focus. Porn is about lust, it is a celebration of sex for sex alone. Healthy sex is only manifested in actual procreation acts (which unfortuneately does make prostitution and promiscuity normal sort of), or in the context of a relationship...porn meets neither of these standards, and is therefore harmful. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, if lust is for your spouse, since that's in the context of a relationship, that kind of lust is okay? If you are looking at nude photos of your wife and getting aroused, is that still porn? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb....could be. Lust is a label that defines inappropriate sexual focus. That is why we have the word, so by definition all lust is bad....but when is something lust can be discussed. The standard is "appropriate" and appropriate means emotionally, psychologically, physically, spiritually, socially....healthy. We have come to use lust in place of passion when referring to spouses, that is sloppy use of language. Thinking of ones spouse in a sexual manner is passion, likewise admiring her intelligence, her compassion, her leadership, her cooking, or whatever can all reflect a "passion" for ones spouse, and marriage. That would certainly include nude picture/painting, could include an erotic audio tape, or anything else that is reminiscent of the sexual bond....however, if one thinks of their spouse as a possesion for their sexual gratification, and spends an excessive focus on such, then one is lusting...and it is wrong, and materials used could be called porn.

This is really no different than asking can a spouse be raped by their mate....some would say no, the spouses body is theirs, and permission is not needed...and that in fact was the "rule" for 1000's of years. We now recognize permission is an important part of healthy sex, and call forced spousal sex what it is...rape. Likewise beyond healthy marital passion, lies unhealthy marital lust....the point being, lust is not dependent on the status of the lust object...it is a determination made about the psychological condition of the lust"er".

There are additonal possibilities as well, if one showed such pictures to another, that would be pornographic usage. If one secretly used such materials for masturbation, that would be a pornographic usage.

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Dilbert:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>Sexuality is the ultimate PERSONAL issue. It's where insecurity lies with it's deepest roots. Adequacy is not just a male issue, ok?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, I'll take a shot at it. You won't even have to triple-dog-dare me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy some pages back:
<strong>Wives want sexual fulfillment without worrrying about doing something wrong, without the worry of trying to please him, without the same old same old.....

Most of all, wives want to feel desired and wanted by their husbands.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Indeed, it is a direct flip in the sense that you've swapped the gender-specific pronouns.

But, are you submitting that women really feel the same way about sex as men do? I challenge the basic premise that we can simply plug in pronouns representing either gender into any statement and deal accurately with how men or women feel about any topic.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do submit that women feel inadequate sexually when their husbands are hypnotically attracted to airbrushed phony perfection. Men are given a false sense of what womanhood is, as well as what SF is all about and a woman senses when she doesn't measure up. Thus, my switching pronouns in Scrum's representation is totally appropriate. When a woman vehemently cannot POJA her husband's porn penchant, typically she feels exactly that she will not measure up in creativity, pleasing him, etc. etc. etc. - go back to the quote again - everything in that quote is EXACTLY what a woman feels about sexual performance when porn is competing for her husband's attention.

Bridge - or any other RC activity needs to be POJA'd. If husband is not enthusiastic about Bridge, his wife, who loves and cares about her husband and her marriage, will find another activity that she can do happily with her husband, or work with her husband on some point that makes him enthusiastic about Bridge. If she wants a good marriage, she will work with it, just as he will if he wants a good marriage.

I guess that's the bottom line of this whole discussion. We're not talking about healthy marriages with these kind of conflicts, whether it be a lack of RC or SF.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>How does porn jive with the "sexual exclusivity" that should govern a marital relationship?</strong> On this point we'll have to agree to disagree. If my W and I decide to watch something risqué or even pornographic (and the distinction there is quite the slippery slope), it's between us (exclusively between us I might say) and perfectly acceptable.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We're not talking about viewing "together" activities in the sense of the conflict here, are we? The scenario you bring up as a disagreement is a POJA - you both decide. It's still mutually exclusive because it's with each other in the sense of POJA.

Your point that two wrongs don't make a right is spot-on! And the chicken-egg analogy works in what caused the problem in the first place - the woman not liking sex because she has to risk being vulnerable in a competition-with-porn sense, or the porn showing up because the woman withholds. Again, neither of these are marriage-building activities.

I,m really lost on why men won't answer Kayla's questions??

why do you think it is different when a woman wants SF w/o the worries of doing something wrong or not living up to some expectation...or w/o worrying if she is pleasing him???

i can honestly say that the biggest turn on for me is feeling wanted and desired by my husband.

so, what is so different here?

Dilbert,
you mentioned that women and men think of sex differently, so how can we just change the pronowns?

....i don't see where it makes any difference....do you believe that women want to feel this way too??

i'm not so sure about the comment that men turn to porn when the wife refuses them.......
we see over and over again where that is not the issue.

i think H's would do themselves a big favor to REALLY THINK about why it is they really turn to porn.....what are they getting out of it?
besides an orgasm,
which might very well be better spent on thier wifes....even if it does take a little more effort and communication.

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

As I have said several times recently, I think the dynamic here is far more complicated. And goes far beyond sex.

To me, one of the typical scenarios goes like this. Husband wakes up. Smells funny smell and house seems chilly. Investigates and finds the furnace is broken. Goes to work. Boss yells at him. Furnace guy calls: heater exchanger is dead, warranty expired at it will cost $2000 to get a new one. Phone rings, biggest customer calling to cancel a large order.

Guy comes home. Feels like crap. Wants to medicate his "bad day". At this point, some guys go to the gym and work out. Some turn to alcohol or drugs. And some ask their wife for sex. Sex is a VERY powerful transquilizer, especially for men.

Turns out his wife is not in the mood because he was angry, upset or otherwise off-putting when he got home. Or he appears weak and needy and hence unattractive. Or she correctly intuits that husband wants the sex as medication, not out of feelings of love.

Now, for the guy whose "drug of choice" is sex, he still needs his fix. After all, he is still upset about the furnace, boss, customer, etc. His wife has turned him down. So he turns to his second choice. Porn and masturbation. As access to porn becomes easier, more and more men find this to be their preferred form of anesthesia.

But realize that his desire for porn isn't about sex. It is about medicating his anxiety. Here is where the wife can be a big help. She can help him explore other more productive methods for dealing with stress.

However, this is a difficult path to navigate. For the couple to work on this together, the husband has to admit his weaknesses. His anxiety. His fear. And as we all know, those are not attractive traits to women. So the guy is going to be reluctant to admit them to his wife, unless she makes it very safe for him to be Radically Honest with her.

And as I have said before, providing lots of sex isn't likely to solve the problem. It might. It provides short term pain relief and ego boost. If the couple is lucky, the issues that are causing anxiety get solved quickly. So it APPEARS that the sex was the issue and the solution.

But it wasn't. It was just medicine for the symptoms. Many times, the underlying causes of the husband's anxiety continue long after the "boost" from sex wears off. In that case, the guy is still going to be drawn to porn so he can spend some time in a fantasy world where he is secure, powerful and in control. Not saying this is mature, but it is often the dynamic that must be addressed.

And the wife who has diligently applied lots of sex, only to find that her husband isn't happier and still wants porn, is going to be LESS interested in helping him deal with his fear and anxiety.

That is why I keep saying to women, if your husband has a porn problem despite your providing sex, stop thinking of it as a sex problem. Think of it as a fear and anxiety problem. And give your husband a safe place to come to you with his fears. If all you do is yell at him about the porn, he is going to feel even worse about himself and even less likely to share his true feelings with you.

Not trying to excuse porn. It stinks. I find myself using less and less of it these days. Even though our sex life still isn't anything close to what I wish it would be. But that is a whole 'nother rant. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: holdingontoit ]</small>

But Hold,
what makes you think it's so different for women.

that is exactly the same way i feel when my sexual advances get turned down or put off.

i don't know where you get that women are turned off by men who admit their insecurities and fears and will be vulnerable w/ her.
i find that one of the biggest turn ons.
that and when he will explore mine w/ me.

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

Interesting holding, and well presented. I would need to see supporting evidence to believe this is a common porn scenario though.

Lets substitute heroin, or alcohol, for porn....no question that regardless of issues, the medication is not ok, no matter whether the user is "understood" or not. That is the argument (at least mine), porn is a choice, and individual choice, and you don't choose it...ever....for any reason....and it is not anyones (including spouse) obligation in the slightest to "help" you resist, or give it up. Nor do I believe anyone can even actively drive another to self-medicate in an inappropriate way. The most fridgid, hateful, sexually absent, meanspirited, insensitive, and uncaring woman in the world has not a smidgen, not even a teensy weensy bit of responsibility for her H using porn.

Porn is NOT sex, it is a perversion of sex. Males do not need sex, otherwise celibacy would not exist as a mainstream life choice. Clearly males have the ability to go long periods without sex....or even if they masturbate as a hormonal release, they certainly have no need for porn, or fantasy to do so. This issue is about porn, not masturbation....although oft-times there are efforts to link the two, cause masturbation is a normal sexual behavior.

In any event, a female who would not be receptive to sex because her H is down, and wants comforting probably has other more important issues. My take on women is they are ready willing and able to give sex as a comfort to their mates....provided their mates make a modicum of effort to communicate what their emotional state is. I suppose a man who comes home and vents displaced anger on his unwitting wife should pretty much expect that to put a damper on receiveing consoling sex. Being a wife and understanding does not mean she should just become an object to be used for sexual release (even if she "understands")...the male should be making some kind of reciprocal effort to meet her foreplay needs.

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

sufdb,

yes....that last paragraph. yes.

if my husband would have communicated that need or desire to me..... i would have found it a huge leap at intimacy and a real turn on.

instead he would 'go to his cave" and distance me..where i got confused and then resentful.....

i think men should try to understand this.

on the hand, i admit....when i want him to 'medicate' me w/ sex after a bad day....it can be very difficult to be vulnerable w/ him if he is not receptive to me.

i don't think men and women are as different as we think here....i think we need to reach out to eachother....take a chance.

Because, Nelly, many wives (not all!) are not emotionally prepared or mature to the point that you are. I love my W deeply and hope for reconciliation. But there is no way, in her emotional state through the years, I could bring an issue like this to her. She fell apart at the slightest, and I mean SLIGHTEST, hint of conflict or anything out of her realm of "normal". She, like many women and men both, has EXTREME self-image concerns. She would never be a candidate for POJA, unless she has changed drastically in the 9 months since she left me. Nelly, in a perfect world your method would work, and should work. But there are many of us out here that choose to clam up because we don't want to start an international incident. I commend you highly, again, for your rational approach to this. Some of us wish we had that option, believe me! Some of us just don't feel like it's worth the fallout. Nelly, you are preaching to the choir here. The one's who need to hear your message will likely not be here as this subject, or any "touchy" issue, is VERY intimidating to them.

But, I am open to workable solutions!

Hurting and Hold,

i know your situations are extreme.

but, honestly..for years my husband would have reacted the same way. he hid himself from me because he thought he knew how i would react.
he thought he knew how i truly felt about porn.
he thought i would look at him as week and unmanly. and he didn't even want to face those feelings in himself, let alone let me seem him like that.....

but, i am trying to say.....i have those feelings too.....we all do.
we should trust and respect our spouses enough to share them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nelly:
<strong>that is exactly the same way i feel when my sexual advances get turned down or put off.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is an important distinction... I don't think I've turned down any sexual advances by my W. When you're the spouse that's getting shot down (and frequently), this is how you end up feeling. You, Nelly, understand this. Not all women get it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nelly:
<strong>
Dilbert,
you mentioned that women and men think of sex differently, so how can we just change the pronowns?

....i don't see where it makes any difference....do you believe that women want to feel this way too??</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think there's a much finer shade of meaning in there somewhere. Generally, I think that men and woman do think differently about sex. Even if all that means is that women recognnize that it's all about intimacy and men don't really think of it so emotionally even though it really is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nelly:
<strong>i'm not so sure about the comment that men turn to porn when the wife refuses them.......
we see over and over again where that is not the issue.

i think H's would do themselves a big favor to REALLY THINK about why it is they really turn to porn.....what are they getting out of it?
besides an orgasm,
which might very well be better spent on thier wifes....even if it does take a little more effort and communication.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How much effort are you suggesting I need to put forth with an unconcious spouse?

It's ultimately a bad decision on the H's part, but I think some Ws make it an easy thing to do.

When my W announces she's going to bed at 9:00 and I say that I'm coming to bed too despite the fact that 9:00 is way earlier than I need to go to bed and she tells me that I shouldn't come to bed unless I'm planning on going to sleep... well there I am. I'm up. I'm alone. It's been weeks since we had sex. If I was hoping for sex and been shut out again it's easy to decide to surf for porn. What do I get out of it? It's a diversion and it's entertaining. To some degree it's getting back at my W for shutting me out. And for the record, I've had more orgasms fantasizing about my W than I've had either having sex with my W or fantasizing about anyone else (from porn or otherwise). And those fantasies about my W, well, they're not my W's face overlaid on some scene from a porno. Most of the time, I fantasize about previous good sex I've had with my W. Sorry if that's TMI.

We don't disagree with you but we don't have the freedom to approach the subject, or any subject like this, not necessarily porn. I don't have the porn problem personally but it wouldn't make any difference what the issue was - she can't handle it. I understand why now, really. I didn't understand why when she was still at home because she withheld critical info about her past from me. Nelly, really - we're with you on this.

that's not TMI Dilbert.....i liked hearing that.
maybe your wife would too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Honestly, i can't imagine a wife who wouldn't want to know that she was the object of her husbands fantasies and not some porn queen.

i,m sorry if i don't get this. maybe,i really don't....
but, there was a time that i wasn't as interested in sex w/ my H and if i go back there.....
this is what i remember.

i didn't feel sexy when i was w/ him.
when we had sex,i felt rushed, so i hardly orgasmed.

when i feel sexy, i make sure he doesn't rush me.....and i always orgasm and i always want more.

and....knowing he's looking at porn stars and thinking he prefers them......doesn't make me feel very sexy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but, i am trying to say.....i have those feelings too.....we all do.
we should trust and respect our spouses enough to share them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nelly, you need to understand that you are a remarkable woman. Your husband is a lucky man. Believe it. Not all women are like you. There are so many women who absolutely fly off the handle with things much less sensitive than sex and pornography. There are women who make their husbands wish they were never born thus making those men never want to risk another outburst like it...thus, cannot trust them to handle certain topics. That all goes against the idea that not trusting your spouse with the truth is a disrespectful judgement...but when the spouse goes berzerko, that's not really following MB "rules", either.
My stepmom was like this...absolutely neurotic. Her friends were like that, too.
It's so very sad...but it happens all the time.

Smile

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The most fridgid, hateful, sexually absent, meanspirited, insensitive, and uncaring woman in the world has not a smidgen, not even a teensy weensy bit of responsibility for her H using porn.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe not, but she does have a responsibility to meet his most important emotional needs.
I personally think that a husband who is consistently refused sex, with his wife withholding for long periods of time, should receive a free pass to pornville. The smart and MB thing to do, of course, is get to the root of the problem together and discover why she is withholding. If like some people I know, she's doing it to be a b**** and control him, then I don't see why porn is so out of the question.

Smile

thank you for saying that, smile.
and i think you you know how much i respect your courage and perseverence too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
and your heart, i can tell you have a great heart.

honestly though, i flew off the handle for years, about lots of things. not because i am selfish and demanding, but because i didn't understand, and i wanted to.....and i wanted him to talk to me......i wanted to understand him so i could love him better......and i hear many women hear complain about the porn the same way.

i think men might be able to love thier women better if they understood them. or atleast let them see that they are puting forth the effort to try.
what goes around, comes around.

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nelly:
<strong>he thought i would look at him as week and unmanly. and he didn't even want to face those feelings in himself, let alone let me seem him like that .....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. Exactly. And you, being an extraordinary person, finally found a way to make it safe for him to open up to you. To you, the trust and intimacy he displayed by opening up to you more outweighed any negative implications from the message he communicated. Not every spouse reacts with so much compassion to a negative message.

Not all of us make it safe for our spouses to be honest. Mrs. Hold told me today that I didn't make it safe for her, so that is something I will have to work on. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

And not all of our spouses make it safe for us to be honest with them.

That is why I am trying to give some women another way to look at porn. To make it easier for her to reach out to her husband with compassion. Not because porn is acceptable or justified. But because fear and weakness are so hard for a man to admit.

And (please correct me if I am wrong about this) much easier for a woman to accept than negative messages about AS or SF. Am I wrong? I mean, it isn't easy to accept that your husband is an alcoholic or drug addict either. But isn't it easier to not become defensive or spiteful when the issue is your husband's fear and weakness? Rather than any imagined shortcomings in the AS or SF area?

That is all I am trying to communicate. That if you thought about porn as a bad means of self-medication. Like drugs or alcohol. Then it is easier not to take it personally. If it isn't about sex. Isn't about his wanting other women. Or finding them more attractive than you. Doesn't that make it easier for you to offer help?

Whereas if the guy really is using porn because he doesn't enjoy or desire sex with you. Finds other women more attractive. And isn't willing to commit to being monogamous in spirit. I would think that would be much harder to forgive. No?

Perhaps to you the content of the message doesn't matter much. If so, I admire you. But I think for most spouses (men and women) it does. I think that there are lots of spouses who would find it MUCH easier to say "thank you for sharing" if the message is "things are going poorly at work and I don't know how we will find the money to pay for the new furnace" as opposed to "you are fat, ugly and lousy in bed".

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: holdingontoit ]</small>

"you are fat, ugly and lousy in bed!"???

well, if that were the truth and my husband really felt that way.....yes, i'd want to know that and i sure would wonder why he was staying married to me and trying to have sex with me.
because i sure wouldn't want to have sex w/ him if he talked to me like that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
would you still want to have sex w/ someone who told you that?


now, he did say some other things that were not very nice to me when he was trying to blame me for why he didn't want to talk about sneeking porn. and i'm sure some were based on the his ideas of the truth.
and i took them as truth and it hurt and i had to deal with that......and still do.


guess your last paragraph threw me......in answer to your first question.....yes, i found it much easier to understand and relate to the fact that he was human and had concearns and insecurities around his sexuality.......same as i did.
and i know i have thanked you in the past for posting about that....it helped me feel less offended and it made it easier for me to approach him in a non defensive way.

and i am only trying to give some men some insight into why your wifes may not feel like having sex w/ you.
she wants to feel desired.
and, if you can't make her feel that....then there is a problem.
because maybe that is where men and women are different when it comes to sex.
most woman do not want to just "have sex" w/ a H who doesn't desire her....just for the sake of having sex.
the only way i could do that was if i really disliked the guy and just wanted to use him for an orgasm.
and if i disliked him that much, i wouldn't want to be married to him.
make sense?

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>