Good lord that's a good post. I'm in this period of establishing my boundaries and questioning how hard I enforce them, and exactly how TO enforce them.

In this most recent recovery attempt, my wife finally started saying all the right things. Stopped blaming the marriage for the affair. Took 100% blame for her actions. Told me it was her issues with happiness and coping, not issues with me. Now this got her back in the door, even though I had reached the end of my rope. Since then there has been some sliding back into the fog. When I reinforce boundaries, she treats them as LBs. I think I can come up with better ways to reinforce the boundaries, because it usually consists of me saying, "I'm still ready to end this." It's a threat, which hurts her because at this point (one week in) she feels that just being here and remaining somewhat cheerful are the extent of the efforts she can muster. With some probing she will say that all the things she said last week were still true. She's just not living it very well.

In 'Surviving the Affair' and on many of these forums, it is stated that we should not expect much from the WS in these early weeks of withdrawal. Dr. Harley says we should not expect an apology. That seems a little at odds with some of the hard and fast requirements for penitence I read in this thread. In the process of recovery, especially those who are still going strong, did you find that the WS seemed to withdraw from those initial feelings of remorse? I would assume this is pretty normal. I'm just a little unclear as to the enforcement of my boundaries. For instance I said she would have to commit to working with MB concepts. She agreed, but of course has not lifted a finger. Do I wait until we're through withdrawal to bring it up again? Do I let her make that decision on her own - then enforce my boundary if she doesn’t? Do I remind her every day of her commitment to do this? Hope this is an appropriate post here. I feel like these questions are repeated a million times here!

Well of course WS's treat boundaries as LBers, especially when they are IB experts and are used to running roughshod all over you.

Boundaries feel controlling to them and they often become angry and agitated. Totally normal. They act like teenagers who want to do what they want without anyone stopping them. They can act very selfishly.

They are not used to the "new BS"...the one who won't be a doormat any longer and this frustrates them.

...

You are right this, is a threat and not a boundary.

A boundary would be:

"I am not willing to stay in a M in which ___________ occurs, or continues to occur."

In SAA, Dr. H is talking about affairs in general. He not addressing FRs.

This thread is focused solely on recovering....after you thought you were recovering.

Some here have gone as far as to renew their vows, only to find out later it was all a FR.

The rules must change, IMO as a BS, because this damage has been so great.

In my own situation, I did an excellent Plan A and was more than willing to deal with his withdrawal...the first time, and even the second time. But the third time? NO, I was done. It was MY way or the D-way.

I had nothing left. I believe another FR could have very well killed me, or at least put me in the hospital. At that point, I could not have coped with any more lies, any more half-measures, any more withdrawal, any more anything, other than "whatever you need honey".

So...

the rules had to change.





During the FR, yes.

During the real recovery, no. His remorse only grew.

I would be very suspicious of a "F"WS whose remorse waned even a little.

I can honestly say, looking back, I have NO idea how I even kept putting one foot in front of the other, but the FR's really knocked me down.

I was my own worst enemy. I took him back too soon, TWICE. After finding MB, I followed the plans, but found myself weakening my boundaries or moving them altogether, just for the CHANCE at recovery with my WH. It was a PAINFUL three years.

For me, I have learned that I would rather be alone, divorced and dealing with THAT reality, than giving a wayward spouse the 'benefit of the doubt'. I truly believe that the WS SHOULD show remorse, be contrite and have hit bottom, so that they are willing to change their behaviors, just as we BS's have chosen to change ours (Plan A). If they don't come back, then you are better off, IMHO.

Mark's post resonated with me, as well as SMB's. I am still dealing with the emotional and physical trauma from all of the hell I've trudged thru.

I never felt at ease, never felt even the slightest bit safe or cared for. I knew, deep down, I did not matter in his life. Only he mattered, his pain. Hindsight is 20/20, but I KNEW in the moment that I was on thin ice. If I had it to do over again, I would have gone Plan B the second time I asked him to leave (after finding MB), no light in sight, darkness, and not acknowledged his existence, if/until he was carrying the load.

I had already shown my willingness to do the work necessary to recover.

This is my first time posting, as I have been a lurker for about 1 year. I believe I have been in recovery for the past 11 months. My first D-day (my husband confessed) was april 2006. My husband had a 2 month affair with a married co-worker that lasted 2 months. He agreed to end the affair and do anything to regain my trust and the marriage back. We went to marriage counseling for 1 year which in hindsight we were given terrible advice. I did not know of MB... We were advised that our marriage could be recovered even if he continued to work with her. So stupidly I listened to the advice and did not require my husband to leave his job. Fast forward 1+ year..I thought that we had made it through 1 year. I knew that our marriage was not perfect but we were doing okay. Talked about having our second baby. He was in full agreement to come off birth control. Got pregnant. Found out that the affair never ended when I was 9 weeks pregnant. Ouch!!!! I was blown away to say the least. Felt completely trapped! My husband left me in an awful position. Again at this point I did not have the advantage of knowing the MB principles. I kicked him out of the house and saw a divorce lawyer. She advised me that I was really in a precarious position financially and emotionally. I was 6 months away from having a baby, without the help of my husband, no local family, unable to work for a while, financially strapped etc... My lawyer and financial adviser both encouraged me to try and work things out...Long story/short he returned home. Put his hand on the bible and told me that he ended things for sure this time and swore to having no further contact with her. (At this point she had left his workplace) Of course these were lies. He continued to have his cake.
Finally I was 2 months from my due date. I was at a complete breaking point. I was in shock that I was about to have a baby and my husband was still actively involved in his affair. It was amazing to me that he could give up our marriage and risk bonding with our new baby. I guess he reached rock bottom too when he realized this and finally really ended the affair on the phone in my presence. He left his job. We relocated out of state. He did individual counseling. I have found MB and we have been doing the home study course.

So in hindsight...I wish that I had found MB earlier and learned about Plan A and Plan B. I forgave him too quickly, never required him to leave his job. He convinced me that it would be the demise of his career. Did not realize that it would be the demise of our marriage. I gave him the benefit of the doubt way too many times. I believed he could not possibly be having an affair while I was pregnant. Even when I knew things did not seem right I did not press him enough or snoop enough. He was often vague about details of his day. Got annoyed when I asked too many questions. All big red flags. Also, I did not expose enough. I was afraid of his anger. Looking back I cannot believe how naive I was. I was always the one talking in marriage counseling. He would agree most of the time that I was right and he would try to do better in the future but would never change his actions. He would talk a good game but no real commitment. No vulnerability with regards to his emotions.

So in about 2 weeks we will hit our 1 year mark with NC (as far as I know). As I have said we moved out of sate but prior to our move she attempted contact through phone calls to his work phone. He would allow me to listen to the messages. That lasted for the first month after his NC phone call. Our baby is now 9.5 months and he can't imagine what life would have been like if he continued in the affair. He would have missed the birth and many special bonding moments that only a live-in father would have. He says that it makes him sick. I think he is sincere and my gut tells me that this is a real recovery but there is always a lingering thought of WHAT IF.... What if I am still an idiot? I don't think so but I hope that feeling goes away some day.
Sorry if my story is not very organized but I am trying to summarize a period of about 3 years.

(me) BW-36
WH-35
3 yo and 9 month old
1st dday 4/19/06
2nd dday 10/12/07
3rd dday 2/4/08
NC 3/4/08
In recovery

The following was written by TogetherAlone.
It's an accurate account of how most marriage recovery starts.... just beautifully stated!


(from the notable posts thread)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"I think an awful lot of things about recovering from infidelity are almost impossibly hard to do. It takes a huge amount of personal growth on the part of both spouses, but if both of you can manage it, the recovered marriage is not the real reward - the true prize is the strength, stamina and maturity you've had to acquire to get there.

If there are young children involved, then making the supreme effort to build up the muscle and climb the mountain is well worth the trying.

The trouble is that, in most cases, only one of you is motivated to start the climb IN THE BEGINNING. The BS has to set out on his/her own, in the hope that the WS will wake up and start putting in the effort at some point. You're working on yourself while the WS is sulking, whining, feeling sorry for themselves and acting like a martyr. That's a really tough time.

You know, I think that's the turning point in most marriages here that get through - when the BS sets out on the journey on their own. Setting boundaries, refusing to be gaslighted, being clear about what they want, taking their own audit of personal weaknesses and dependencies, becoming a strong, clear-thinking person. When the WS 'gets' that this is happening, they either start shaping up, or they run away.

Either way, the BS emerges a bigger human being.

Not one of us would have asked to be hit by infidelity, any more than we want cancer or the death of a child. But the big crises that hit us are the best opportunities we have to grow in character and integrity."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This particular paragraph is very relevant to this thread:

You know, I think that's the turning point in most marriages here that get through - when the BS sets out on the journey on their own. Setting boundaries, refusing to be gaslighted, being clear about what they want, taking their own audit of personal weaknesses and dependencies, becoming a strong, clear-thinking person. When the WS 'gets' that this is happening, they either start shaping up, or they run away.


Taking audit of personal weaknesses and dependencies --- this is the basis of personal integrity. .... and, as it turns out, the basis of recovery, both personal and marital (if the WS does his/her own personal audit as well).

Taking a WS back in absence both spouses being willing to take an honest personal inventory, is the basis for FR.

(I know this seems obvious, but it is a recently discovered truth for me)

I agree with this...the tricky part for the BS is RECOGNIZING what is needed.

It's so very hard when you are in the thick of it and you cannot see the forest for the trees.

I believe it TOOK Plan B for me to be able to see this clearly...I needed to get out from under the SPELL FWH was putting over me with the gaslighting and manipulating.

In hindsight, I almost wish my PB was longer. 6 weeks isn't long enough.

I have a few books that I HIGHLY, HIGHLY recommend that the BS read during PB, in preparation for possibly getting into recovery:

"Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend
"Love Must Be Tough" by Dobson

These are the highest priority. A few others that were helpful to me are:

"My Husband's Affair Became the Best Thing That Ever Happened to Me" by Anne Bercht <

<I HATE the title of this book and it was hard for me to even get passed it to begin reading it. However, it is a great personal account of what one can expect in recovery. I also gave it to my mom to read so that she could know and understand a little better about what I was going through, and that was helpful.

This book is how I found MB...there is a list in the back of helpful websites, so I am ever grateful for this book>

"Co-Dependent No More" This was helpful to ME, in order to be able to stick to my boundaries. It can be a bit tricky to NOT use the principles in regards to POJA and some other MB principles, but overall it was helpful to me.

***Note: this list is assuming the books by Dr. Harley have been read***

It sure has been a while...and enough time has passed where I can honestly see clearly.

The biggest advice I can give is to ignore the words and pay attention to the actions. Talk is cheap, and the WS is a master of deception. I believed things that I can not even fathom right now, I was hurt and I wanted to believe what I was being told.

My first FR lasted almost an entire summer. I knew he was still in contact, but since he was living back at home again, I allowed myself to be fooled into thinking that they were dying out. He said all the "right" things to soothe me into thinking we were on the recovery track. His actions lacked...and therefore recovery never had a chance.

My second piece of advice is NO CONTACT IS A DEAL-BREAKER!! YOU WILL NOT RECOVER AS LONG AS THEY HAVE ANY CONTACT.

When our final and "real" recovery started there was honesty and accountability. Trust but verify. I was able to address triggers without throwing the A in his face, he would talk with me in a caring manor and help me deal with it and answer whatever questions I had.

Following the MB plan and listening to advice here, helped me deal with the A in a very rational and adult way (I am not saying that I wasn't an emotional wreck, but I didn't let THEM see it). I do not condone my FWS actions, but I understand our role in getting to that place. I refuse to let it define him as a person. We have a wonderful relationship now; we meet each others ENs. It makes my heart smile to know he has the utmost respect and admiration for me.

I hope I didn't veer off task too much

It seems like the BS's who don't want their WS's back at all, after discovering an affair, have the best chance of no false recoveries. Probably because the WS gets immediately what he has done. He made a choice that just cost him everything. And there is nothing like a cold hard dose of "I just made the most costly error of my life and have lost everything" to wake a WS up.

But most BS's are rendered scared, due to their own insecurities, to walk away upon DD. Most, as Faith said, are guided by their own guilt at not being a very good spouse and allow this to add further to their insecurities.

A WS, upon discovery, finds out pretty quickly if they can fence sit, or if they have just entered into the fight of their life to keep the BS from walking away and never looking back.

If you have decided to do a Plan A, because your marriage was not so good, then like a Plan A where you EXPECT continued contact and EXCEPT that an affair is going on, and will continue to go on during this Plan A, you should also expect that there will be false recoveries. Maybe false recoveries are part of the growth phase of recovery and of a BS becoming strong.

Even after going into a dark PLAN B, a BS who has grown accustomed to weakness on your part and the allowance of fence sitting, probably won't be truly "there" yet.

For me, in the R I was in, if I had not been acting from a place of extreme need and insecurity, I would have seen clearly that he was still lying and playing me. It was pretty obvious, looking back, that he was in it to get the most for himself that he could.

People need to be strong, both men and women, in order to come from a place of real and productive love.

This was the biggest falacy of my life, thinking women didn't need to be strong. That it wasn't attractive, or sexy, or desirable.

I am now both strong and loving. But it's taken a whole lifetime of kicks to wake up and finally get it.

WoW

good one my friend

Hi

A late comer to this thread and not as experienced as many...

but where I KNOW I went wrong had less to do with how tuned in I was to my FWH's state of mind or intentions, than how aware I was of my own desperation and vulnerability. Looking back, I KNEW I was believing him because I was still desperately wanting what he said to be true. I SAW him breaking small boundaries and conditions and let it happen because I wanted him back more than he (really)wanted to be back. I set a time line and conditions and rushed them all. He deceived me but I let it happen despite my valid gut feelings and doubts because I wanted to believe the nightmare was over.

An IC I saw gave me some good advice, which was to think of what I would advise my daughter to do in the same situation, before each subsequent decision I made, and I kind of applied this the second time around. I realised that what I had accepted as good enough for me I would NEVER have considered good enough for her. I managed to remember that what I KNEW about him from experience was that he was capable of cheating and lying, and he had to PROVE to me that there was no cheating and lying at every step of the way. And still does. And I got better at examining my first reactions and identifying when I was believing something based on the evidence and when I was believing something because I was desperate to believe it.

Bit of a ramble, but the gist of it is that staying alert to the possibility that you are vulnerable and could allow yourself to be deceived is maybe as important as staying alert to the possiblity that your WS is still in deceitful mode.

A clear head and strength to all of us!!!

Aprill

Aprill, great post. This is what we usually encounter when newly betrayed spouses arrive on the scene. They believe what they WANT TO BELIEVE rather than what is TRUE. They are in SHOCK and do not want to believe what is right before their faces. So when we tell them the truth, at first they are often ANGRY as hell and accuse us of being "bitter" or "in pain."

It would be so much easier to just go along with them, but those of us who have been through this, all know that denial will only work against them. Facing the facts and acting on their behalf is the only solution.


This is hard to do for a person who is wracked with grief and terror but you have hit the nail on the head. The ones who make it are the ones who PUT ASIDE their emotions and instead follow INSTINCTS and LOGIC. Instincts are usually RIGHT. Emotions send us off on in the wrong direction because they are concerned with what we WANT instead of what is TRUE.


Agree absolutely! I think the forum can help in this regard. All the "bitter," "pain wracked," "suspicious"... "jealous" posters can point out the deceit.

Great post, April!

Thanks Mel!! As a long time lurker and not-often-poster (I tend to find the answers in someone-else's post cos we really ARE following the same script!!!(and I live across the world in the wrong timezone)) I have to say you are right and the forum does help see through the fog. And the counsel of wise women and men like yourself, Pep, tst, schoolbus and SO many others was a real lifeline in my darkest hours for which I will always be grateful. And I agree, sometimes the advice seems harsh at first, but its not as harsh as realising that the one person in the world you trusted to love and cherish you would willing deceive you AGAIN, because he saw that he could get away with it.

But I think it's not only in the horrible pain of the 'newly betrayed' state that judgement can be impaired - I think when I felt like I was 'coping' and was feeling strong in plan B, I was hiding from myself the fact that I was following the plan, appearing strong and determined, as a kind of desperate 'bargaining', that if I did it all right he WOULD come back, and so was all too happy to believe it when he seemed to be doing that. Kind of like the bargaining stage in grief - if I get this right he WILL come back and I've done it all right so this MUST be true, he MUST be coming back. So the willingness to believe what was not true continued well past the initial shock for me, and the fact that I seemed to be coping and feeling strong in Plan B before our FR was really part of the denial that this COULD be the end of my marriage and he would maybe never come back.

So I think there are maybe 2 'danger' times for FR; in the initial pain of the newly betrayed, and in those who convince themselves they are doing a 'dark' plan B when they're desperately clinging to the belief that if they just 'do this right', their WS's will come back...all the while peering anxiously out from behind closed curtains trying to see their BS's every move. Which is what I was doing.



Aprill

I went back and read my posts from a year ago. It is amazing to look back with 20/20 hindsight and examine my thoughts and feelings.

Some red flags of false recovery that I ignored at the time:

- I made wholesale changes in the way I treated my WW...and she went about things business as usual
- Got her flowers, card and gift for Valentine's day...she got me nothing
- She read a little from book that IC gave her, but only day before their next appointment. Never picked up SAA although i left it around the house
- Never brought up subject of the Affair to me...I was always one initiating conversation on this topic
- I hinted that I needed the nitty-gritty details of the hookup, but she never brought up the subject...(she eventually did...)
- I felt like she was just existing, waiting for this to fade in to the past.
- Said "I need to be a better wife" but did little to show me. Lots of talk, very little action.
- Filled out ENQ and I peeked at hers (I'm meeting those top ENs), but she didn't ask to see mine (months later she did)


The very good peeps here kept telling me something was not right, something smelled rotten in Denmark...but I would not listen. Thankfully I snooped...and ultimately discovered OM#4...it was Plan D from there. LG, out

I was totally honest with her and explained how I found out things (I admitted to the keylogger, voice recorder). Now she knew how to defeat that.

I didnt try really hard to get her into counseling with the Harleys - she said she wanted to do her plan - I know, it was stupid, it was no plan

I didn't put anything on her cell phone to track web use/messaging.

I didn't continue to snoop as much.

She did not want to divulge details of affair - said it was a love buster b/c it made her feel ashamed - not too ashamed that she did it with someone else

I brought up the affair - and subsequent arguments - too much - but I was nearly perfect in every other way - she was just not committed

She told people that you shouldn't have to try, shouldn't have to work at being in love with your husband. It should just be there. She took the easy road out by getting infatuated with a high school friend on Facebook during our recovery and quit.

1. I wish I would have started snooping right away. I wish I would have installed the key logger months ago. I wish I woud have not talked about the OW so much, reason being is that I think I kept her alive.

2. I don't think I missed cluses that he wasn't ready, I think we were healing the wrong way. I nagged day in and day out which in turn made our relationship seem like more work then it was worth. When I tell you I had him up until like 3 or 4 in the morning yelling and discussing the OW, that is not an exaggeration.

3. If you want something to die, you have to starve it. In the beginning get all of your questions out, yell and scream if you have to. But once you decide to take you WS back, at some point you have to let it go. Don't mess up a new day with the mistakes from yesterday.

My husband went back to the OW only in the since of conversating over the phone. She listened to him complain about me, she was a shoulder for him to lean on, at the time I wasn't. I kept her alive, but she is now dead to us because I no longer discuss her, thus allowing him to get over their emotional attachment. She's out of his site, out of his mind. If I could take it back, I would have not talked about her everyday for 4 months, yes literally I talked about her every day for 4 months.

1. WHAT did you do that you wish you'd done differently?

I wish I had found MB sooner. I wish I would have asked him to change jobs immediately. I wish I had listened to my gut. I wish I had kicked him out sooner and remained silent longer. I wish I had not allowed him into our home to see the kids...completely dark. I wish I had not told him how I knew information...that just made him sneakier.

2. WHAT clues did you miss (or ignore) that your WS was not ready for recovery?

He did not change. He didn't initiate change. He did not seem present. He continued to get blocked calls (told me they were from police officers) He got emailed texts. He continued to delete messages.

3. WHAT lessons did you learn that you'd like to pay forward to others, so that they might avoid a FR?

If it is a co-worker WS MUST CHANGE JOBS. No matter how much you need the $, no matter if they say they can avoid each other...no matter what. Do not trust too soon. I did not snoop deeply enough. Expose to WS family members.

My FWH used an email I did not know he had ONLY on his work computer so I could not track it. She called him through the general work line and had them transfer her so it could not be traced on her phone. WS are so good as deception.

For me -- We just stepped into FR on Friday --

I wish I had exposed from the very beginning.(unfortunately,there were underlying conditions keeping me from fully exposing)

I wish I had listened to the wonderful people on here when so many of them said that everything I was saying sounded like his A was still going on. I tried to justify the reasons that I thought it was over.

What clues did I miss? His resistance to talk about the A. If he saw I was upset, he'd get so mad and say "can't you just drop it?" or things like that. He was very defensive if I'd question his whereabouts. He was deleting calls from her.

What lessons did I learn? Unfortunately, I am still learning them. It's NOT my fault. I shouldn't feel bad exposing because this was HIS choice. WH can tell lie after lie and not blink an eye over it. Don't be too quick to believe WS is telling you the truth.

My false recovery was last year. I am now divorced. We had a 4 month false recovery that I led. My ex went along with my plan. It was never his plan. He never volunteered information. I always did the discovering to obtain the truth. I did the exposure - which he detested. I did plan A but I could have been better at eliminating LBs. I never thought I needed Plan B because my husband had agreed to NC and I thought we were recovering. He would also get mad if I acted hurt or had questions about the affair. He apologized often but was grudging in setting up EPs. He was never completely honest. He broke NC four months into our false recovery and filed for divorce shortly after that. A BS can lead a marriage into recovery if the WS joins them and participates. It cannot be successful if the BS is doing all the work.

Well, I guess I can finally answer the questions on this thread. Thanks for bumping it for me last November. It was very helpful then. Here is my experience:

After 15 months of NC, my H contacted the W via email and telephone for about 10 days. He then lied about the contact for 3 more months. I do think we are in recovery now. It has been very difficult and the false recovery made it that much harder.

1. WHAT did you do that you wish you'd done differently?

I wish that we had attended an MB weekend earlier. We had been working on the home study course. But we did not have any accountability for the lessons and no one to discuss issues that arose during the lessons. When H refused to commit to openness and honesty, I wish I had realized that meant he was still lying.


2. WHAT clues did you miss (or ignore) that your WS was not ready for recovery?

H was very depressed. He had a long withdrawal period. This was exacerbated by discussion of the A. I would uncover lies, have an AO, H would be depressed. It was a viscious cycle.

The comments about attitude are huge. I was pushing and pulling recovery and H was along for the ride - not totally committed. After the false recovery, I stepped back and H took the lead. He became the one to schedule our planning time for UA, get out our MB books, etc.

3. WHAT lessons did you learn that you'd like to pay forward to others, so that they might avoid a FR?

I learned to not be afraid. During the FR, both OWH and I said something like, "Well, if you want to be together, go do it." I wrote a Plan Bish letter and told H that I never wanted to see him again. I laid out my bottom line requirements to return home (he was visiting his mother when he broke contact). For a period of time, he did them half-heartedly. I then told H tha if he wasn't all in, he would be all out. Overcoming my fear was my bigest step. If I had done that earlier, I would have presented my boundries better and perhaps avoided nearly 2 years of wasted time.

UA time for recovery and a good marriage is critical. If a couple is not spending at least 15-20 hours per week meeting the four critical ENs, I think recovery is hampered, maybe impossible.

My story is on my thread, recovery - take two, in the recovery forum.

AM

Intears .... reread this.

This was written by poster Star*fish - I keep it on my notable posts thread. I think this thread can use it's own copy. Here it is:

If you are a BS who had a FALSE RECOVERY
I am requesting you share about your FR

1. WHAT did you do that you wish you'd done differently?

2. WHAT clues did you miss (or ignore) that your WS was not ready for recovery?

3. WHAT lessons did you learn that you'd like to pay forward to others, so that they might avoid a FR?

It sounds to me like you are thinking that the way through this is to talk about how horrible what you did is, emphasize it, show that you agree that what you did was wrong and feel horrible for it, etc.

It is true that what you did was horrible. But simply beating yourself up verbally will never make your wife feel better. Instead of expressing dramatic guilt and talking about how horrible you are, let your feelings of REMORSE and COMPASSION FOR YOUR VICTIM motivate you to express care for your victim. Others are describing specific things you need to DO. Focus on what you can DO to make this better, not what you can SAY, because you can never make this better by mere words alone.

Hope this helps...