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Originally Posted by Pepperband
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" I like you very much "

The fact is, you DO NOT "like" her at all.
Let alone, "very much".

You were being dishonest. Again.

Even a casual observer recognizes that you are still comfortable with dishonesty.

Honesty is not one honest act.
Honesty is also a quality as well as a personal value.

Dishonesty is not one dishonest act.
Dishonesty is also a quality as well as a personal value.

You STILL value dishonesty when you want to avoid something that is tough for you to do.

A person with the quality of, and who values honesty, will not (so effortlessly) lie to anyone.

You seem to focus on each misstep you make as if they were isolated events.
They are not.

You "get it" that this upset your wife.
What you fail to fully comprehend is that even small lies TO OTHER PEOPLE puts your character flaws in a bright spot light.

Let me ask you a question.
Were you ever dishonest making your medical reports?
Why or why not?

Let's pretend you did lie professionally.

Let's say you lied on a coroner report (not just an error) and got found out.
What do you think would have happened to your professional reputation?
Would you explain that you were just trying to spare someone's feelings by the lie?
Would you claim to have been "suckered" or "manipulated" by an outside influence to make a dishonest report?


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it is extremely dangerous for me to fall for this kind of thing

You did not "fall".
You were dishonest, because that is what you do.


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learned a lot about women and how they manipulate men

You were not "manipulated".
You lied.

I STRONGLY urge you to re-think these comments you made.
Can you see the ultimate purpose of your comments?

Both quoted comments were you excusing yourself for being dishonest.

Think about this.

If I see or hear my CURRENT husband (after 14.5 years of M recovery) being dishonest to ANYONE .... it is a redflag

I do not want a dishonest spouse.
I do not want a scapegoating spouse.
Neither does your wife.

I talked with DWG about this, and you are right. Though I was taught that dishonesty is sometimes OK, if it is done to avoid hurting other people's feelings, it certainly is, and has been, a pattern with me that has infused my entire married life, and it is one that must be completely eliminated in our marriage, and it has. In my professional life, my cases and reports were scientific. There was nothing social about them, so there was never any motivation or reason to be at all dishonest. The reports went to other doctors, not to patients, since I was a pathologist, though sometimes the primary doctors shared those reports with patients word for word. No. My policy in my career was to seek and report absolute truth or be as precise as possible in expressing the degree of uncertainty I had. I was good at it and was never sued in 24 years. So, that was not an issue there.

I need to ask you a question. If an acquaintance has a severe deformity they are self-conscious about, and they ask you if they look "ugly", are you perfectly honest with them, or do you tell them "I think you are a beautiful person, and people judge you on that, not on your appearance", even though you know that to the vast majority of people who sees her, that person is revolting or disgusting? I know that is an extreme example, but there are many other examples in social interactions, where "white lies" are merely something that people do when they are caring and humane. I know that you know that. Is such a thing unacceptable from the standpoint of MB radical honesty? I don't think it is, unless it involves marital relationships. And in my case, trying to be kind to someone who expressed hurt was not recognized by me as manipulation, because when thinking about it more, it was manipulation, and it was a threat. I believe that as long as I am radically and obsessively careful about any such expressions of feelings coming from a member of the opposite sex, such as "hurt" or "offended" or something positive for that matter, then I will be protecting myself from my weaknesses. Radical honesty to such a person is not only a good idea, but necessary. This episode was a good point of learning for me, and a lesson in reinforcing and improving my precautions. But it was no more than that, Pepperband. If you see my explanation as mere excuse for something unacceptable and something that has global consequences for our recovery, I understand that. But you would be wrong. I fully understand that my attempt to not hurt someone's feelings was dangerous, and I can no longer be concerned about the feelings of any woman who might be manipulating me. Lesson learned. As far as I am concerned, that is a good thing. Now, can you answer my question about white lies in social interactions?

Last edited by GreenMile; 08/17/10 11:03 AM.

FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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I am not a fan of M. Scott Peck, he was a philanderer. Not a worthy person to emulate, imvho.


I'm the FWW EA 2/06-3/06 NC 3/06 BH still not sure
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Originally Posted by GreenMile
I need to ask you a question. If an acquaintance has a severe deformity they are self-conscious about, and they ask you if they look "ugly", are you perfectly honest with them, or do you tell them "I think you are a beautiful person, and people judge you on that, not on your appearance", even though you know that to the vast majority of people who sees her, that person is revolting or disgusting? I know that is an extreme example, but there are many other examples in social interactions, where "white lies" are merely something that people do when they are caring and humane. I know that you know that. Is such a thing unacceptable from the standpoint of MB radical honesty?


I'm not Pep, but why is your answer the only one? Why can't you say

"I think you are a beautiful person, and people I judge you on that, not on your appearance"

Not a lie -

If the aquaintance asks if you think PEOPLE judge them on their appearance -

"They may, one of the negatives of our society is that looks are very important. I think that is wrong, and I don't judge you by your appearance. I think you are a lovely person."

There are ways to speak positively and truthfully.

It isn't either or.

It's like telling a spouse they can't use Selfish Demands or Disrespectful Judgments - they have no clue how on earth they will cope without these tools.

And yet - it is possible and actually easy once one learns how.

It's a matter of making it a priority and learning how.

White lies are not necessary. Actually it has been my pet project to try to eliminate White Lies so I can try to live a life with more integrity and honesty. I'm liking what I'm seeing as I've tried this - now I'm not perfect, but I think I'm getting better.

So can you.


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I am 61 and retired. I have been unfaithful once in 1984 for a brief encounter but carried on a six year "relationship" with a dirtbag that ended on discovery three months ago. I have been an addictive personality all my adult life and a narcissist with a huge ego, though at heart I am a good person.

The first sentence (above) of your first MB post.
(Thread is 'locked' but I think this quote is OK)

I can't believe you think that I am going engage you in a discussion of the nicieties of social conversation ... ...

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there are many other examples in social interactions, where "white lies" are merely something that people do when they are caring and humane.

You have a serious problem with self-deception.


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But you would be wrong.

I could be wrong.


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Now, can you answer my question about white lies in social interactions?

No, I will not.
It is a detour away from your self examination.




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Originally Posted by Pepperband
*LINK* to "The painful truth"

People of the Lie

Have you read this book, by M. Scott Peck MD?

You can avoid a lot of future pain for DWG if you accept the pain/discomfort of honest self examination and, ultimately, accept that truth is less worrisome than lies.

Little lies are dangerous too.

Especially for someone such as yourself.


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"Those who fully experience depression, doubt, confusion and despair may be infinitely more healthy than those who are generally certain, complacent, and self-satisfied."

Take care.

Thanks for the link. I saved it as pdf and will read it later. I have heard of the book, and DWG has told me about it relation to me. I cannot tell a lie, PB smile. It is me, or at least one form of it. I have had this problem all my life. It was enabled and handed to me, but as an adult, it is my responsibility to identify and correct such things. It has about destroyed a beautiful human being and caused untold pain. I have looked in the other direction to explain my problems, and avoided my issues entirely. I believe it is a form or true mental or emotional illness. In the course of breaking down and rebuilding myself, this has come into painful focus, but I am facing it full on and dealing with it. This program is my chief source of doing this at this point.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Originally Posted by Pepperband
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I am 61 and retired. I have been unfaithful once in 1984 for a brief encounter but carried on a six year "relationship" with a dirtbag that ended on discovery three months ago. I have been an addictive personality all my adult life and a narcissist with a huge ego, though at heart I am a good person.

The first sentence (above) of your first MB post.
(Thread is 'locked' but I think this quote is OK)

I can't believe you think that I am going engage you in a discussion of the nicieties of social conversation ... ...

Quote
there are many other examples in social interactions, where "white lies" are merely something that people do when they are caring and humane.

You have a serious problem with self-deception.


Quote
But you would be wrong.

I could be wrong.


Quote
Now, can you answer my question about white lies in social interactions?

No, I will not.
It is a detour away from your self examination.

Fair enough.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Originally Posted by GreenMile
Thanks for the link. I saved it as pdf and will read it later. I have heard of the book, and DWG has told me about it relation to me. I cannot tell a lie, PB smile. It is me, or at least one form of it. I have had this problem all my life. It was enabled and handed to me, but as an adult, it is my responsibility to identify and correct such things. It has about destroyed a beautiful human being and caused untold pain. I have looked in the other direction to explain my problems, and avoided my issues entirely. I believe it is a form or true mental or emotional illness. In the course of breaking down and rebuilding myself, this has come into painful focus, but I am facing it full on and dealing with it. This program is my chief source of doing this at this point.

Here is a compliment (and, I don't give compliments unless deserved)

You chose well when you chose to title this thread:
Breaking old patterns

My size 7 on your backside is NOT done to make me feel better about myself ... I want to help you achieve your stated goal ...Breaking old patterns

.... and when you try to deflect to a conversation about little white social lies .... I will have no qualms about kicking you back to your purpose.

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Originally Posted by Vibrissa
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I need to ask you a question. If an acquaintance has a severe deformity they are self-conscious about, and they ask you if they look "ugly", are you perfectly honest with them, or do you tell them "I think you are a beautiful person, and people judge you on that, not on your appearance", even though you know that to the vast majority of people who sees her, that person is revolting or disgusting? I know that is an extreme example, but there are many other examples in social interactions, where "white lies" are merely something that people do when they are caring and humane. I know that you know that. Is such a thing unacceptable from the standpoint of MB radical honesty?


I'm not Pep, but why is your answer the only one? Why can't you say

"I think you are a beautiful person, and people I judge you on that, not on your appearance"

Not a lie -

If the aquaintance asks if you think PEOPLE judge them on their appearance -

"They may, one of the negatives of our society is that looks are very important. I think that is wrong, and I don't judge you by your appearance. I think you are a lovely person."

There are ways to speak positively and truthfully.

It isn't either or.

It's like telling a spouse they can't use Selfish Demands or Disrespectful Judgments - they have no clue how on earth they will cope without these tools.

And yet - it is possible and actually easy once one learns how.

It's a matter of making it a priority and learning how.

White lies are not necessary. Actually it has been my pet project to try to eliminate White Lies so I can try to live a life with more integrity and honesty. I'm liking what I'm seeing as I've tried this - now I'm not perfect, but I think I'm getting better.

So can you.

Outstanding! Those are great points. Those are skills I certainly need.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by GreenMile
Thanks for the link. I saved it as pdf and will read it later. I have heard of the book, and DWG has told me about it relation to me. I cannot tell a lie, PB smile. It is me, or at least one form of it. I have had this problem all my life. It was enabled and handed to me, but as an adult, it is my responsibility to identify and correct such things. It has about destroyed a beautiful human being and caused untold pain. I have looked in the other direction to explain my problems, and avoided my issues entirely. I believe it is a form or true mental or emotional illness. In the course of breaking down and rebuilding myself, this has come into painful focus, but I am facing it full on and dealing with it. This program is my chief source of doing this at this point.

Here is a compliment (and, I don't give compliments unless deserved)

You chose well when you chose to title this thread:
Breaking old patterns

My size 7 on your backside is NOT done to make me feel better about myself ... I want to help you achieve your stated goal ...Breaking old patterns

.... and when you try to deflect to a conversation about little white social lies .... I will have no qualms about kicking you back to your purpose.

I am glad you have no qualms, Pepperband. It isn't always easy and not fun to hear it, but because of the emotional reaction that has been patterned from hearing it from DWG, it definitely helps to get the size 7 placed by an independent observer. I know that is why you do it, and that is why I am here. Don't feel bad about it at all. Even if I get a little PO'ed about it for 20 minutes or so, that reaction goes away rapidly, and I end up better for it. Believe it or not, PB, I depend on it.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Now, can you answer my question about white lies in social interactions?


No, I will not.
It is a detour away from your self examination.

I had the same reaction. The "white lies" question was just a distraction and a deflection away from a far more important question. I'm not going to address it, either.

Manipulation sucks for everyone, GM, including you. I feel great pity for you, because you have missed out on the genuine love and trust and companionship that an honest relationship can bring you.

You think that P/A manipulation is the way to run your life and avoid trouble? How did that work for ya?

What you really avoided were real and rewarding human relationships born of love and trust - you know, like the one you could have had all those years with your wife (and that she has also been robbed of).

Honesty with all things makes life sooooo much easier and so much richer. You would be amazed.


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Originally Posted by GreenMile
Even if I get a little PO'ed about it for 20 minutes or so, that reaction goes away rapidly, and I end up better for it. Believe it or not, PB, I depend on it.

Some day, when you are ready.
I'd like to discuss the fear you live with, the fear you think you've hidden so effectively.

I don't think you're ready, yet.

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Originally Posted by Mulan
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Now, can you answer my question about white lies in social interactions?


No, I will not.
It is a detour away from your self examination.

I had the same reaction. The "white lies" question was just a distraction and a deflection away from a far more important question. I'm not going to address it, either.

Manipulation sucks for everyone, GM, including you. I feel great pity for you, because you have missed out on the genuine love and trust and companionship that an honest relationship can bring you.

You think that P/A manipulation is the way to run your life and avoid trouble? How did that work for ya?

What you really avoided were real and rewarding human relationships born of love and trust - you know, like the one you could have had all those years with your wife (and that she has also been robbed of).

Honesty with all things makes life sooooo much easier and so much richer. You would be amazed.

I share your impression that what that has done is pitiful, even though no one likes to feel that they are pitied. You are right. It has not worked for me at all, and it robbed my W. It doesn't work. It has never worked for anyone, unless they somehow enjoy being miserable and causing misery to others.

When I suddenly got the compulsion to click the "message" button and explain why I was not going to accept that friend request, the only thing that crossed my mind was that I wanted her to not think I was being a jerk for not friending her. Looking back, I have to ask myself why that was so important to me. DWG said that it was part of an old pattern where I wanted to keep any woman "in reserve" as a possibility for potential future illicit contact. I keep asking myself, "Is that true? Is that what I was doing? Was that my unconscious motive?" It is part of a pattern, and this thread is all about learning to break old patterns (see Pepperband's post above). There is every reason for DWG to think that. I don't want to delude myself or ignore an opportunity to break old patterns. And even if that was not what I was thinking, even unconsciously, it is crucial for me to stop the pattern of just thinking something, deciding it must be good because I thought it, and then acting on it. I have to filter everything, every thought. The truth is that there was no reason to have to explain myself to that woman on facebook, whether she is the widow of a famous musician or not. If my boundaries are strong and conscious, I should have been recognizing her as a single woman, not an acquaintance of influence, and a simple "ignore request" was all that was necessary. I should have especially recognized that, because I was warned about her. And when she came back with another message about how offended she was, I should have instantly recognized that it was a manipulation, especially by someone with her reputation. I failed to do that, and that was bad. There is nothing else to really debate about it.

Last edited by GreenMile; 08/17/10 01:08 PM.

FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Originally Posted by Pepperband
My size 7 ]on your backside is NOT done to make me feel better about myself ... I want to help you achieve your stated goal ...

I'm an 8 1/2. If you ever feel yours is not working, Pep....feel free to borrow mine...... grin

Not

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When I suddenly got the compulsion to click the "message" button and explain why I was not going to accept that friend request, the only thing that crossed my mind was that I wanted her to not think I was being a jerk for not friending her.

You were concerned with what Facebook Woman would think of you, so that's what you acted on.

If you were concerned with what DWG would think of you, *that's* what you would have acted on.

You can't have it all. You can't connect with every woman you meet, much as you have tried, and expect to have a rewarding marriage with a happy wife.

Either your wife comes first or she doesn't. In this case, once again, she didn't. She was expected to just disappear while you got strokes and attention from some other woman. I guess she was supposed to be happy for you that some woman made you feel good, and you can't understand why she wasn't?

Mommy is happy when girls are nice to her little boy. A wife is devastated when other woman are allowed to "be nice" to her husband (that is, to fill his ENs.)

That's how you've run your "marriage" for years and years - though the truth is, of course, that DWG has been married and you have not. Worrying about what Facebook Woman thinks of you instead of what your wife thinks of you is proof that you are still not married.


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Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by GreenMile
Even if I get a little PO'ed about it for 20 minutes or so, that reaction goes away rapidly, and I end up better for it. Believe it or not, PB, I depend on it.

Some day, when you are ready.
I'd like to discuss the fear you live with, the fear you think you've hidden so effectively.

I don't think you're ready, yet.

I'm looking forward to that.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Originally Posted by Mulan
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When I suddenly got the compulsion to click the "message" button and explain why I was not going to accept that friend request, the only thing that crossed my mind was that I wanted her to not think I was being a jerk for not friending her.

You were concerned with what Facebook Woman would think of you, so that's what you acted on.

If you were concerned with what DWG would think of you, *that's* what you would have acted on.

You can't have it all. You can't connect with every woman you meet, much as you have tried, and expect to have a rewarding marriage with a happy wife.

Either your wife comes first or she doesn't. In this case, once again, she didn't. She was expected to just disappear while you got strokes and attention from some other woman. I guess she was supposed to be happy for you that some woman made you feel good, and you can't understand why she wasn't?

Mommy is happy when girls are nice to her little boy. A wife is devastated when other woman are allowed to "be nice" to her husband (that is, to fill his ENs.)

That's how you've run your "marriage" for years and years - though the truth is, of course, that DWG has been married and you have not. Worrying about what Facebook Woman thinks of you instead of what your wife thinks of you is proof that you are still not married.

I'm getting rid of my account.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Originally Posted by Mulan
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When I suddenly got the compulsion to click the "message" button and explain why I was not going to accept that friend request, the only thing that crossed my mind was that I wanted her to not think I was being a jerk for not friending her.

You were concerned with what Facebook Woman would think of you, so that's what you acted on.

If you were concerned with what DWG would think of you, *that's* what you would have acted on.

You can't have it all. You can't connect with every woman you meet, much as you have tried, and expect to have a rewarding marriage with a happy wife.

Either your wife comes first or she doesn't. In this case, once again, she didn't. She was expected to just disappear while you got strokes and attention from some other woman. I guess she was supposed to be happy for you that some woman made you feel good, and you can't understand why she wasn't?

Mommy is happy when girls are nice to her little boy. A wife is devastated when other woman are allowed to "be nice" to her husband (that is, to fill his ENs.)

That's how you've run your "marriage" for years and years - though the truth is, of course, that DWG has been married and you have not. Worrying about what Facebook Woman thinks of you instead of what your wife thinks of you is proof that you are still not married.

You are right about how I ran my marriage. This is not longer the case.

The rest of it, regarding how I feel about her and what or who I value more is a projection carved out of your own painful experiences and is no longer true for me. You have been posting about honesty, and if you are honest, you will admit that don't have any real idea how I feel or what my motives were in this case, only what you are projecting, unless you are talking about how this episode made DWG feel. Remember, those are feelings that she shared in a post. They are what she FELT as a result of how I handled this Facebook episode. Those feelings are my responsibility to address by showing care and loving support, ending my Facebook account, etc. Your harshness is based on your interpretation. I am asking you in a nice way to back off, because your insights are valuable to me, and I don't want to stop reading them.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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How are you today?

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They are what she FELT as a result of how I handled this Facebook episode. Those feelings are my responsibility to address by showing care and loving support, ending my Facebook account, etc.

What Mulan is trying to get you to look at is changing your behavior so you are not REPAIRING damage, but PREVENTING damage.
If you had approached the situation with your wife topmost in mind, this never would have happened.
And you wouldn't have to end your account etc.

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Originally Posted by Pepperband
How are you today?

Still waking up LOL.

DWG has Pandora playing, and Simon and Garfunkel are on, playing "Feeling Groovy". So, that is our mood at the moment.

I left her a gift subscription and a love note. That's about it, PB. Thanks for inquiring.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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