Thank you SOT and SOL...I appreciate you guys posting on here. I keep up with your threads as well. We are on similar timelines...only a bit more until Plan B hits for all of us. This sucks and I feel for you guys as well.

Funny thing, I used to look forward to weekends...now they are so tough because WW does not want to spend any time together. Yet, she doesn't want to lose time with our daughter. Nor do I.

I don't hope this situation on anyone...yet it is so common, much to the delusion of our wives.

igrip, I have been following your situation as well and am hoping for the best for you.

You seem to be doing things the right way.

I just had an image of the three of us being the band on the Titanic. The ship is sinking, yet we continue to play on....

Plan B is our life-boat, but it is the last resort and it is for saving us, not for changing our WW.

Explain to MIL that it is FINE that she continue contact with her daughter. You are NOT telling her what to do or anything. However, she must not lie to you and you promise not to lie to her [crossing my fingers behind my back since there is no way you can completely trust your MIL as you fight this battle for your marriage/family]. I'd also remind MIL that someday, God forbid, this situation could result in a divorce and their will definitely be some sharing of custody and splitting of holidays and other events and if she wants to insure HER continued participation in such events when YOU have custody that it would behoove her NOT to lie to you. You aren't asking her to spy for you or get involved in the drama...just don't LIE for or on behalf of your wife.

"Not getting involved" works both ways....by lying for your wife she IS "getting involved" and your wife shouldn't put her in that position. She (mil) should be upset with your wife about that and insist to her daughter that she won't lie to you anymore (so she better be careful what she tells her).

Now this is where you also get sly....you then can feed your MIL information that you KNOW will certainly get back to your wife. You be sure to tell your MIL that there is no way in heck you will ever be nicey-nice to your wife should she divorce you. You will not be friends with betraying ex-wife as that would be unhealthly for you and modeling terrible behavior to your children (that someone can abuse you and you're supposed to accept it and smile about it). That societies ideas of friendly co-parenting is a PIPE-DREAM and completely unrealistic and harmful. That more recently professionals are recommending absolutely NO CONTACT with ex-spouses in highly emotional contentious divorce situations. Be sure to say that you are aware that people THINK that once the dust settles ex spouse's seem to get along...but that will NEVER happen in this situation and with the way things are going down NOT because you are vindictive and want to punish your potential ex-wife but because NO CONTACT is the appropriate and healthy response to betrayal. Removing the betrayer from your life PROMOTES healing. You tell MIL this within the context of speaking about your intentions of keeping MIL involved with YOUR family and being invited to the kids events even once you divorce. That you have ever desire to CONTINUE a great relationship with her but it will be completely devoid of her daughter should her daughter divorce you.

Hopefully...that will keep her neutral (which is often the best you can hope for) AND a tool that you can utilize to leak information to your wife (and further dissipate your wife's all so common fantasy of bliss after-divorce once all the fireworks subside)

Mr. Wondering

Yesterday, I had a good talk with MIL....told her I was deeply hurt by her lies to me as I trusted my family above all and now these two were telling me lies. Wrote her a five page letter last night about my feelings - for her daughter, for this situation, my dreams for the future, etc. She likes letters so I thought this would be a good idea. She said she cried when she read it.

She wanted to talk to the two of us alone tonight..however, WW did not want any part of it. Said her decision was made, the marriage was no one elses concern, etc. I talked to MIL afterwards and told her that she was very much involved as she lives with us, is a primary caretaker of our daughter and this situation would be very much involving of her. If WW moves, she is living with me. If I move, WW cannot afford house without MIL help, which I learned is not biblical (when you marry, you leave your parents and become one flesh with your spouse). So, I told her not to be afraid of WW's newly "bullying" behavior and not talk because she is scared to make her mad. That WW was, unfortunately, at this time behaving very selfishly (the first negative thing I have ever said about my WW) and thinking only of herself rather than me, our daughter, her mom...people that are going to be directly affected for the rest of our lives. She will let WW calm a bit and then see what happens. WW wants to hear NOTHING from anyone which is why she only speaks to two of her friends...period. That is all. Anyone that is 'against' her ideas is instantly banned from her current life...she has become a homebody.

Thank you Mr. Wondering and all others that post..I need all the support I can get as I roller coaster continously.

This morning had a session with Steve Harley - very impressed as he makes lots of sense. Nice guy to speak with and helpful as well - I recommend using him.

So, an update on the weekend, etc. Yesterday morning, she asks me 'what I wanted to become' with my changes. I really did not have an answer so I said 'a good person' to which she said 'you already are a good person.' I thanked her as that was one of the nicest things she has said in quite some time. I told her I would have to think about it and get back with her later. So, this afternoon, I asked her 'what was your question exactly' to which she answered so I told her this. I wanted to become the type of person we would be proud to have our daughter marry. That I wanted to be a good partner that could listen, hold on to his emotions, understand caring through his partners eyes - not my own. She asked 'how I would know that I was doing that as before, I thought I was doing the right thing as well.' I agreed, told her that before I was ignorant to the right thing, but now was open and receptive to learning and would continue learning until the day I died. She asked how I would know what to do to which I answered 'that everything is written - biblically, very easy to follow 'rules' and that marriage information is easily accessible and that is all I am doing these days anyway which is learning.' Then I added that I would want to be held accountable. She asked what that meant and I answered that I would have a few friends that I would answer to (before I would probably have told them to mind their business as I was doing fine). Also, I would continue seeing my counselor perhaps once a month to inform of what was going on in my life. Also, I would like to have another couple to 'answer to' about what is going on in marriage. Then I got up to check on dinner that was in the oven.

She came out a few minutes later and told me 'don't tell me that stuff again because I am nauseous.' I told her 'you asked me the question.' She said "I did yesterday, not today.' I told her that I prefaced it before I started talking today, she never stopped me and she asked me questions to continue. She just said she felt nauseous and went to the guest room....was laying down - doing what, I do not know - perhaps praying? She was in that position laying on her stomach, but could not see what she was doing. Then she came out for dinner a few minutes later and that was that.

Interesting? What are some opinions on this?

You are planting seeds. She is nauseous because you are destroying her whole justification for her affair and divorcing you, her justification that you were a bad husband and would never change. Now she is believing that you may very well have changed. She's pi$$ed that you did AFTER she had her affair. After all, if you would have changed before her affair, none of this would have happened. It's all your fault in her mind. She doesn't want to work on the marriage because all the excuses and justifications she told herself and everyone else would no longer seem to hold any water. Getting back with you would just make her the cheating wife. Going through with the divorce would allow her to tell herself and others that it the marriage was over before she cheated and cheating wasn't the cause. She doesn't want to lower her standards of living, but she's too proud to admit she screwed up, have you be able to hold this over her for the rest of your lives (that's what she thinks), and work to save your marriage.

Keep up with a good plan A, but provide some stick with that carrot as well. Listen to Steve and follow his plan for you. You definitely seem to have her asking the right questions. She is wavering.

HOWEVER, YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE SHE IS NOT CONTACTING OM! Can you do that? Contact is what is going to keep her from possibly deciding to reconcile. If she has no hope of a relationship w/ OM after divorce, that is one (major) less reason to go through with the divorce. That reason could tip the scale one way or the other. Prevent contact at all costs.

Thank you JMWC...I knew 'something' was with that statement, but could not figure it out...I believe you nailed it on the head.

Unfortunately, not doing too good on the enforcing no contact. Everything is password protected..cannot get anywhere. My ONLY thought is IF divorce becomes eminent, I will subpoena ALL email and phone records from both. Otherwise, I am kind of stuck..I've thought of ideas, but nothing 'good' enough. I will keep thinking though and researching more threads..there are some good ideas out there.

igrip, I haven't read your thread in a while, but it sounds like you are doing great. I agree with jmwc, though, definitely sounds like she is still justifying, which to me sounds like she is still in contact with OM. That is how I knew my WH was not investing in our marriage anymore - he went from really listening to Steve Harley, and saying it made sense, to finding ways to NOT listen, justify his affair once again, and blame me.

Good luck and hope I'm wrong!

HACKER!

Where there is a will, there is a way. You just need to find a way. You just have never had that will. You should have put spy software on all her stuff before she got it protected. Now you need to resort to trying hundreds of passwords or I would discuss with a PI to see what he says. Don't give up so easily.

Agreed...

What about the one or two hidden voice activated digital recorder? It won't record what she types on the computer but her phone calls to OM (or girlfriend(s) in the know) would be revealing. I suggest one in the family car and one at home.

As far as getting information through discovery...

1. You rarely get it. Most cases settle long before such documents are ever delivered. Alternatively, they deliver a few innocuous emails and claim that's it and when you push for more they deny they saved anything and will claim it's all been deleted long before you ever requested it in discovery. Deposition is your best shot to get SOME documentation for posterity of the events of your life and the lives of your children. Interrogatories and requests for production of documents will be useless for the most part.

2. It's not timely information that will help with your battle. It's kinda like discovering the Japanese plan to bomb Pearl Harbor two years after the fact. Sure it'll make a nice piece in a history channel documentary about the attack but other than that...very little utilitarian use.

Mr. Wondering

Thank you for the discovery advice Mr. Wondering....

Today, she 'informs' me that another friend of ours is ignoring her on FB..and he never ignores her so he knows as well. Blames me for telling (I did not tell him, but she feels the ones I exposed to told everyone). I tell her very calmly that I am not the one that did anything wrong. She starts to talk, justify, etc...when I cut her off (we were eating breakfast with daughter), point to daughter and call a time-out on the conversation. She starts to talk again saying 'ok, I DID do it but...' when I call the time-out again.

Consequences to her actions. But I remained calm and stopped as this conversation has been had before and it is beating a dead horse at this juncture.

Tell me, on the voice activated recorders, do they just 'stay on' until they hear a voice (like in the car overnight - etc)? Any recommendations on models, brands or where to buy? Radio Shack was too generic and I think the one I looked at had a 'power save' where it shut off after 5 minutes of non-use.

And then, lets say she is talking to OM...what do I do with this info? I cannot 'bust' her on it without giving away secrets...what am I missing?

You re-expose and you try and figure out ways to eliminate that means of contact in the future. I'm sure she wants everyone to believe that this divorce has nothing to do with OM. Afterall, she's not even in contact w/ him anymore (wink, wink, nod, nod). You let it out that it still has everything to do w/ OM, and then she feels more dirty about the affair. People will know the real reason she's divorcing. And since she has complained that people you exposed to are ignoring her, she doesn't want that. It will make it harder to go through with, and will kill the affair more quickly.

and...

when you re-expose...you attempt to do so by implying you have other sources of the information such that you can continue to use the recorders.

For example...you "claim" you were able to obtain copies of phone bills, text bills or computer files. Maybe you say you eavesdropped through the wall or door when she didn't know you were home and you snuck back out. Anything to keep her off guard.

There WILL come a point where it's just worth it to come clean because it's just not healthy for YOU to maintain maximum snooping. In recovery...once your spouse says "snoop all you want...i've got nothing to hide anymore" it's pretty easy to back off (and then maybe a year or so later tell her how you snooped).

Right now...you need the intelligence. Once you give up...who cares what she does.

Mr. W

Well, today was eventful. She was 'cleaning' up the closet while I was playing with baby this afternoon. She has been 'moving' things around, etc. lately - taking a few knobs and changing them out, etc....in preparation for a new place maybe? So, I asked her if she was packing and she said no, just cleaning. I asked her if there was anything I needed to know and she said no.

She later came to baby's room and I asked if she had made an offer on a house yet? She said no. She started talking about divorce details, etc.......I asked her about all possible options that have not been taken in saving this marriage - that research should be done. Steve Harley told me the other day the 'ideal scenario' would be for my wife to be in love with the father of her child - me. So, the other day, I asked my wife that and she agreed it would be ideal - IF SHE WANTED THAT. She brought that up again this afternoon and did her classic 'line' of I'm done, finished, checked out. I very calmly told her that if she was checked out, that she should just leave then. It would be much easier for all. If that is what she wanted and that made her happy, then go and the sooner, the better. I told her it hurt me too bad to be living with someone that obviously did not want to be there. That it hurt that she doesn't even come out to say hello or goodnight when I come home. That she rarely says thank you for anything I do. That I am not being respected as a human, much less as a husband and it hurt. Her not wearing her ring anymore, not showing 'married' on her FB page (I HATE FB BTW), not doing anything together..all not the marriage or life I wanted.

She said 'enjoy dinner, I'm leaving' to which I told her I would see her later. She quickly changed her mind saying she did not want to leave our daughter. She then sat down and I talked some more, all calmly and without any disrespectful comments or tone.

I told her the door would be open for a while if she wanted to return (she said 'for a while?' to which I answered that I could not wait forever). She asked if I was getting a power trip by asking her to leave. I told her it would be the saddest day of my life if she did leave, but I was still in love with my wife that I knew before and the wife that I recognize standing in front of me, but not what she has become in the past four or so months. I told her I was not controlling her, but suggested that she 'rent' so that if she was ready to come back into the marriage and commit to making some changes together, it would be much easier.

I was very calm and loving the entire time and conversation. Told her that I recently, I had loved her regardless of how she treated me as that is correct living according to the Bible which was the way I lived now. Which is why she always has a cup of coffee ready in the morning, money, bills paid, a roof, dinner,etc....that I was loving her unconditionally of the way she was treating me. That I knew only God and herself could change her as I was powerless. Told her I understood why she may have wanted to leave me before, but did not understand what she was leaving now (I have changed tremendously).

She actually asked about my workout before I left - she has not asked about anything in weeks. Will see if she comes out to say goodnight later.

Not sure what I expect, but I feel comfortable. Honestly, at this point, she is already 'not there' and divorce papers are filed..so what is the worst that could happen from here? The worst is already here. Will keep updates coming.

So, my MIL made an offer on a house yesterday I find out. "Claims' it is for a rental...I know that is false.

I'm so ready to give up. I cannot stand to be lied to..first my wife, then MIL. I love my wife, but not this one. At all.

lgrip -- it can change. She can change. I'm exhibit A.

Change isn't an event, it's a process. You think she doesn't hear you or see what you are doing -- and maybe she doesn't -- but my guess is she does and she's resisting it because (1) she doesn't trust it, and (2) believing it dictates that she has to give up her fantasy life. Those are actually two really huge steps.

Here is my pattern for what it is worth: rage alternating with defensiveness alternating with despair alternating with the occasional moment of lucidity which is usually accompanied by hope, oops hope is really scary, go back to rage and repeat.

I hesitated to post here because I have LONG way to go but it was the cup of coffee comment that tipped me over.

Are you going to plan B soon?

Thank you saddestwife for posting...I appreciate any thoughts and suggestions.

She is basically on that roller coaster you mentioned.....but, could be all part of an act to get away. She has not changed her tune in 4 months.....seems to be getting worse. And she was FURIOUS that I found out about the house offer....seems like it was 'entrapment' the way I got her mom and her to not mesh their stories and when I prodded as if I knew something, she admitted it. PISSED when she found out she was trapped. I admit I am not proud of that, but I do not like getting lied to either. Actually, that is the part that gets me the most...lies. And she gets mad at me...unfortunately, talking to MIL today sounded just like talking to my wife...ridiculous. I was "controlling" for asking why she is buying a house....amazing.

SapphireReturns...Plan B seems as if that may be the way to go. Will have a session with Steve Harley next week and see the suggestion. I do not want to give up, I really don't. I want this to work. But, there has to be a will from the other side and she is SO DEEP, that it is not close to lifting.

I have another appointment with Dr. Harley tomorrow morning.

This week has already been tough. She knows how to push buttons and I have slipped up a bit unfortunately. Yesterday morning, she comes out and asks our daughter if she wants eggs. I had just finished asking our daughter the same question so I answered for her 'she doesn't want eggs, she wants oatmeal' and that was enough to send my wife mumbling and mad into the other room. I asked why she woke up on the wrong side of the bed, went to the guest room where she was and tried to see why she got so mad. She just stayed mad. That evening, I brought it up and she told me I was the one that had the attitude. It is SO hard to avoid being demanding or disrespectful.

I slip, and then I immediately take it back. However, my slips are not good ... I know they are not good.

It hurts SO bad to be lied to, disrespected, etc. by the one you love the most. However, it is very selfish (although natural) to want to be treated well...so in that regard, I have not changed, especially in her eyes. No one said this would be easy...I feel all the guilt and I think that is taking the load off of her as she just gets to focus on me.

This sucks..will see what the appointment brings tomorrow.