Thanks to all of you who responded.
I will try to answer all of you in this post.

I have to first start out by saying that I am having a particularly difficult time of it right now due to my WH's lack of honesty.

Army-I am sorry for the way I wrote my post. I guess my writing skill is worst than I thought cause I thought that I had my post properly separated. I will try to do better.

Aetna
I agree with you, there is a whole lot on my plate to deal with, I have been broadsided. I have a lot to deal with. I am now though, at the point where I feel that I cannot continue to take sole responsibility for this M. Whenever I say I am tired of all of this, he says I am so sorry for what I have done and I will do all the things that are necessary (he had a phone session with Jennifer, as did I), but then he does a little bit and then stops till I remind him then he starts back. Its like having to deal with a child, reminding him to brush his teeth, wash his hands, take his bath,- my WH will be 60 soon-I will not be his parent. Part of the problem in our M was that he kept doing wrong things and I kept making excuses for him, did not confront cause I did not want to hurt his feelings. There will be no more of that! look at how well that worked for.
We had a talk on Sunday, he told me if he were in my position and I had done to him what he has done to me he would have walked a long time ago-WTH??? So what exactly does that say about me?
He had a 5 year relationship-it was not just about sex, he says, it was a RELATIONSHIP. yet he is now trying to convince me that because he ended it as soon as I found out, that he does not think about her anymore, does not miss her, does not miss their conversation; how am I supposed to believe that? well I don't. The bottom line is this, so long as he continues to not be honest, moving forward is impossible.
The other part to this is, you cannot keep telling me that you will do all that is necessary to rebuild the M and yet cannot be honest about your feelings.

Four weeks ago I sent him a list of my top 5 ENs. I know he opened the e mail cause I have access to his e mails, but he never asked me anything, never even mentioned the mail. When I said this to him on Sunday, he says he thought that it was just an FYI mail. Huh?? Given the crap that we are going thru right now, whyy would I send something like that if I did not expect a response? WH is not a stupid person(well not totally)so I have to think he is playing a game and I am sorry but I am not in the mood to play.
I just returned from a vacation in NY which is where I had my conversation with Jennifer, I came back with a purpose and goals for my M but after Sunday's conversation, I have changed my mind.

Am I wrong?

teaser,

Your WH sounds a lot like what my H is when it comes to communicating.

My H did cut off his affair immediately, as well. He called OW and told her that it was over. They have had NC since then.

He was able to turn off a switch, and for him I attribute this to "compartmentalizing" things. He describes it as basically keeping things mentally separate in his head - that what he did with her was somehow very separate in his mind, and it seemed a part of another "life" in a way for him. He mentally separated it.

As far as his avoidance of talking about the affair, and talking about recovery methods and approaches, this isn't unusual. One of the things I wonder about in your sitch is if he is somehow still in contact? Are you spying?


If you're sure about NC, then the issue of talking has to move forward. The honesty thing is a huge issue - and maybe if you do print out my post to CGIR your WH would recognize himself and your frustration in there. You never know.

Another thing you might want to look at is an older thread that I wrote called something like Body Language and Memory or something like that. Search my name and it will come up.

Use some of the techniques - especially the idea about keeping the "talks" very short and limited to one topic only - to try to open him up. I had to use this approach to gain my H's trust that we would not have marathon talks, and that we would not venture off topic and hit him with unexpected things.

My H is the kind of guy who has to think about things before he talks. I tend to be fairly fast on my feet. So discussions are rough for him, and I can wipe him out in a heartbeat in any kind of argument. We know that, so "fighting" isn't in the cards for us. We HAVE to work things out so they are fair for him - and I have learned that I MUST listen to him. He actually has a great deal to offer me..........IF I SHUT UP AND LISTEN.

That is the key with the WS, lots of times. The BS has been hurt, but the WS has strayed for a reason. We have to listen to find out what is happening, and we have to be quiet and still to hear what is at the heart of the matter.

Sometimes that is the hardest part. Read the thread and go very slowly - patiently - and one thing at a time. You will get there.


If you decide not to go to a Plan FU.

Which I happened to do, by accident. For me, it seemed to work.

SB

I will get back to you after I read the thread.

I have one question for you though. When I read your statement that My H is the kind of guy who has to think about things before he talks" the first thing that came into my head was-oh hell is she married to my WH?
I am actually laughing!!!

Teaser- I know a lot of the MB veterans will have advice for you (I'm unfortunantly still too know to this and trying to process and figure out things myself) I did want to say that you are not the only one to feel this way.

I am having a very hard time wrapping my head around Plan A- especially because I feel like I have been doing this, for years. We have had several "good" talks about what we need over the last couple of years and, after each one, I have done everything I can to try and be a "better" wife.

It's exhausting to put that much energy into making someone happy when you are already feeling so hurt and betrayed, and harder (in my opinion) when you don't see an effort on the WS's part.

MJ
Thanks for your response.

The thing is, right after I discovered the A, when he was giving the reasons he felt unloved, nothing he said was true.

1. He says that he felt that all I needed him for was as a partner for social functions. I then pointed out to him that the only social functions we have been to over the past 3 years were functions that HE was invited to, so I was going with him and not the other way around.

2.He said we never discussed the issues-I reminded him of the number of times I tried talking to him and the fact that it was a one way conversation, he said I came to him when I was mad and he did not want to respond-so I asked him, what stopped you from coming back to me at another tie to discuss it. Apparently it was only MY responsibility to initiate conversation. His answer to the problem was to become a serial cheater.

3. He says he feels I did not really care about him as I did not seem interested. I reminded him that he kept demanding privacy, I fought it, then he just took it. So when he got his privacy he interpreted it as me not caring. DD pointed out the many things I did that could only mean I cared. He said at the time he did not look at it like that.

I know that I am not perfect, but I also know that I do not deserve all the crap that he has done.

I even saw e mails where he was bragging to his friend and to his brother about all the women he was scre..ing.

Surely I deserve better?

Teaser... Like I said, no real advice, just empathy from me right now. I am struggling with Plan A- but I feel that I have tried everything and this is, at the very least, deserving of my absolute best effort. I won't know if it works unless I try 100%, right?

My WH also gives a lot of reasons everything from me paying too much and/or too little attention to him, caring too much about the kids & house when I was a stay at home mom, and caring too much about my job when I am working. Telling me that I wasn't sexual enough and it's my fault that he "has" to look elsewhere. And sometimes "I don't know why I did/do it. It's not your fault"

We discussed it recently and I told him I was feeling confused about why this really happened. That sometimes he says it's my fault and sometimes he says he didn't mean that. His response?

"I never said I didn't mean it. I just said I shouldn't have said it. I meant it but telling you just made you mad at me."

So, on to plan A. Kill him with kindness. Or is that just kill him? Some days I forget!

With tongue in cheek I say, just kill him-always making sure before you do it that his life insurance is up to date with his payments. Hahahahaha-I kill myself!!!

Just a little humor to try and lighten the mood, we need it.

teaser_8 and MJ830,

Listening an active wayward and believing the information they are giving to you will not get you anywhere (easier to say than done). Their mental state is strongly affected by affair and the connection with reality is lost. Of course, it is very confusing when a person with whom you have spent years starts giving you all this nonsense but I strongly suggest - ignore it as much as you can. I have seen in these forums even excuses like "you like Pepsi but I like Coke".

Try not to laugh, ok?

But for me, for an outsider, the excuses your wayward spouses are giving to you right now are as laughable as the above.

Please remember - the affair was not your fault. There was many other choices. And deep down, they know it too.

Stop following fogbabble, use Plan A (limited time, no expectations!) and, if necessary, plan B.

teaser. I�m so glad you�ve had responses from so many others. Armymama gave you a good bit when she passed on Dr. Harley�s observation that the more a BS has to resent, the harder it is to forgive. And yes, you have a boatload. She also asked you where you thought were in the process (ending the affair, establishment of extraordinary precautions, meeting BS�s emotional needs, BS meeting WS�s emotional needs, and avoiding talk of the affair (once the WS gives the BS the information about the A the BS requires). A very good question to ponder. I hope you will.

Think about what Atena said, too.

In order to visualize this, you�ll need to step out of your shoes and into your H�s for a moment. Very difficult, I know, but try.

His reality in the aftermath:

He knows he has expressed remorse to you, and that he�s gone NC with OW. You've snooped to confirm this.

He�s told you he�s put her out of his mind, that he doesn�t miss her.

You don�t believe that, and I respect that you don�t. Believe me, I do. I�m asking you to allow that it�s possible. That he doesn�t pine for her. I say this only because my H said the same thing, and I didn�t believe him, either. After what he did, and how he threw me and our 37-year M 0verboard, cut off his kids� he wanted me to believe he didn�t want to marry her and be with her forever??? Beyond imagining to me!

Turned out it was the truth. He was just using OW. Took me a long, agonizing time to realize that was the truth. An ugly truth...all about selfish feel-good for HIM, and to he!! with everybody else. I�m amazed now that he could admit such a thing�that he'd trashed our marriage and used some other woman to prop up his flagging, 60-year-old ego. Must�ve made him feel like dog poop, although I couldn�t see that at the time for my own pain and anger. Could be true in your case, too. You cannot be sure it isn�t, can you?

You are concerned that he is not fully �getting with the program.� Improves for a bit, then backslides and you have to be �Mommy� to get him back on track. Heaven help me, my H did the same thing�for months. And I prodded and pushed like Mommy, too. Made us both more miserable. What I should have said to myself when I realized I was doing this, but was too caught up in my own emotions to use my head was:

"STOP BEING MOMMY. You can only do your part�not his."

Here�s a reason he may not be giving it full effort. Like my H, he may not be convinced that any of this MB and counseling stuff will ever get him out of the doghouse (and your angry outbursts confirm that for him). He sees the carnage, and he doesn�t believe he could ever fix what he's messed up. He has every reason to believe you will never get past it. He told you HE couldn�t if the shoe were on the other foot! A good indication that he thinks you can�t...

Why would he want to go through all that sturm und drang if, based on how it looks to him, it will do no good anyway?

Read Schoolbus� post again. The part about compartmentalizing�very typical, especially for a man. My H did it too.

And the part about her H being the kind of guy who has to think about things before he talks. My God, I think we're all three married to the same man! I am not that way AT ALL, and I�m sure he experienced me as a human AK-47, ripping off rounds. He couldn�t compete with me in verbal warfare, and I sure didn�t show him any patience. I wanted this thing fixed, right now! (Do you see yourself here?)

I learned it doesn�t work that way with that type of communicator (classic introvert processing style). I feel really bad now about how I pushed my H to communicate in a way he could not, at a pace he could not. That he �took� that kind of heat (over and over again) without throwing his hands up in despair is an indication to me (now) of how much he did want to put things right. I just couldn�t �read� him accurately. Couldn't see his pain because I was so caught up in mine. Besides, for a while there, I wanted to blame him, and to punish him. Not my most noble moments. Thank God he stuck it out. (�Course, he�s grateful I stuck it out too.)

Yeah, the calming down, listening and examining our part is the hardest thing. But it�s critical. You�ve got to find a way to get there. He�s got his work to do, too. Maybe Jennifer can help.

This is already too long, but there�ll be time for more.

Rightherewaiting,

Thank you for this post. It describes me and my H very well. And there is a perspective in your post that I had not fully considered before.


Using the coaching center has been very helpful to us. Our coach is really good about picking up when things are not tracking too well and I start to tire. She talks to me and then to my H. I don't know what she says to him, but from the first conversation, he stopped lying. And now, 7 months later, he gets back with the MB program if he starts to slack off.

AM

Recon

First, I am grateful for your response.
Second, you can't say things that are that funny and then tell me to try not to laugh and I must tell you I tried real hard not to, but was unsuccessful.

While trying not to feel sorry for myself, I have to keep reminding myself that it has only been 4 months since D Day, I was thrown a humongous curve ball and with the resulting crash of my self esteem I have to fight harder than ever to maintain by mental balance. When WH starts feeding me crap, I am instantaneously triggered into rage and love busters. I am a person who is used to being in control of my emotions and I am struggling inwardly with the total loss of control, the harder I try to maintain control, the easier I go into the rage.

But I am going to try real hard to work up a Plan A, we will see how I fare with that.

Will keep you posted.

Hey SB

Just read your thread as suggested-hmmmmm very interesting. You seem to be rather insightful.

Sorry for taking so long to respond. I had a bad night last night, got into my rage-on verge of violence but was able to stop it. Love busters!!! no sleep.
Busy day on the job. Siiiiiigh......

First, I am relieved to hear from you that it is indeed possible for WH to cut off his affair, since mine and your WH sounds like they were built from the same mold, I will buy into this concept unless and until I am given reason to think otherwise. Thank you, cause I sure did not see how that was possible.
I only now am starting my spying. You probably don't know this, but I live in Central America so the gadgets recommended in the spy thread are not available to me here. I just returned from a vacation in NY and FL and I did bring back some toys but I was having problems with the installation, one of my staff members came over and assisted me today so we will see how it works. For this reason, I cannot guarantee that NC has been maintained, this is a source of angst for me but I have had to try and exercise patience, obviously trusting WH's word on the matter is not an option.

I think though, that perhaps the most important piece of advice you gave me is the "shut up and listen" one, its not something I have been doing much of lately and WH has asked me on more than one occasion in the middle of a conversation"can I speak now and you just listen"? SB, methinks you have been lurking in my house but I am not complaining, coming from you, the advice makes sense, from him? well....

See I came back from my vacation quite energized with a plan for the way forward but then we had a conversation that did not go well and this is when I became despondent and started thinking maybe the best thing is for us to just go our separate ways.

However, I am promising you that I am going back to the drawing board and will try again. If I get inadequate input from WH though, there is no telling how that will go.

Hi Army

Thanks for responding.

In answer to your question, yes WH ended the affair, he spoke to Jennifer, wrote down some extraordinary precautions but when he showed it to me he said that the list was not complete, that was about 3 weeks ago, I have heard nothing back from him on that.
Here is where we run into a big problem, I sent a list of my top 5 ENs, I sent it by e mail, he never acknowledged receiving it and said nothing, when I told hi this his response is that he thought that the e mail was just an FYI, huh? given what we are going through should he not have at least asked me why I sent it?

So then I get angry, and then I say, why should I bother with a Plan A for him when he is not bothered by my ENs?

SB

Another cause for a setback was the fact that while I was away OW called him, and I felt that his response ought to have been, did I not ask you to respect my wishes and not call me? instead, she asked him a question, he answered her and then said, I can't talk to you and hung up. I have asked him to get me a copy of his phone records because I need to verify the duration of that coversation.

Atena

I want to apologize to you for my misspelling of your name yesterday when I responded, I hate when others do that to me, blame it on my age!!!

Yes you are right, R of the M is looking more and more like an unattainable task, he has repeatedly stated this is what he wants to do but he keeps getting stuck on the honest thing. Right now integrity and WH need to be introduced, don't think they have actually met.

Hey
As usual, thanks for being there.

So, last night was not such a good night, we started a conversation and it went sour, I went into a rage, was on the verge of violence but stopped myself. Love busters galore!!! yea, I deserve some 2x4s.
I am seriously beginning to wonder if you SB and I are actually married to the same WH.

I am paying keen attention to what everyone has said, because I recognize that I am currently lacking in coherent thought, so I plan to try and get back the enthusiasm I came back from my vacation with. But I will try.

I will definitely not play the mommy role, thats baggage from the past that I absolutely refuse to do.

But you know what? in the middle of all this I feel lonely, starved for affection, I think I am especially enraged by the fact of what I see as him not attempting to my MY ENs. I wonder why that is, I know I should ask but I am afraid of getting my feelings hurt, that honest crap cuts 2 ways you know?

Last night I showed him SB's thread, so then he attempted to explain to me why he started a relationship with OW and the others. Well I have had many men who have been telling me that OW had a pattern of starting up relationships by repeatedly telling the men how badly her H was treating her and this would eventually lead to an A, well WH said she did no such thing with him, that she hardly mentioned her marriage, so I then said well I guess that means that what happened between you guys was just a natural attraction that developed into something bigger? and ....., he said yes. OH God, that hurt.
And yes, like you and SB I am a human AK-47 so oh yeah, I see myself quite vividly in you and SB. scary isn't it? I guess at 4 months post D Day, I am not yet at that point where I can resist blaming him.

Okay.


You broke one of the rules. You responded angrily when you should have

shut up and listened.


Wow. This guy was willing to tell you the truth and you let that opportunity slip away???????


yikes

No excuses in the world should go for you on that one.


You showed him my post, and he WANTED TO TELL YOU THE STORY.

That is huge, teaser. HUGE.

He is open to telling you, but the problem is



you.


In this case, your listener is broken.


You have a big job in front of you now.

Your assignment:

In this order.

1. Write him a very short note that says, "I did the wrong thing. You were willing to talk to me, and I wasn't willing to hear what you had to say. I'm asking for another chance, can we do this over, only this time, I will respect you - you have my word on this. I apologize for my disrespect. I want to try again."

2. You will NOT offer any excuses for your lovebusting. Regardless of the fact that you are in pain, he had an affair, he was wrong, etc., this does NOT give you permission to disrepect him. Only you know that already, right? Think of it this way - you CAN control your lovebusting. You would NEVER use this approach if you were disagreeing with the President, your boss, or with a tiny child. Because, you CAN control the words you choose. THEN CONTROL THE WORDS YOU CHOOSE WHEN YOU TALK WITH YOUR HUSBAND. He deserves equal respect, even though he did something wrong.

3. Set up a time for the two of you to talk. HE TALKS, YOU LISTEN. Remember, this time is not for you to be reacting to what he is saying. This is a time for you to hear his story, to offer him time to tell you the details he sees as necessary. This will be when he gives you the high points of the story, and likely will say some things he hasn't said before, IF YOU PLAY THE LISTENER ROLE RIGHT.

If you use the 15 or 20 second rule right, he will talk, openly. This works - and you will have lots of information to process

LATER LATER LATER LATER.

Remember what it is you want? The story? What happened? The truth? His feelings? Answers?

Give him the floor, and see where he goes. He almost gave it to you, and you reacted. This time - control it.

4. If he says something that hurts in the course of the conversation, your ONLY response needs to be one of the following limited choices:

-silence, until you gain your self-control and can say one of the following choices
-"That hurts, but I will need time to form my thoughts"
-"It hurts to hear that, can you hold on while I go to the restroom?" (and you go to the bathroom, take a moment, collect yourself, and go back CALM!)
-"Okay, I'm sure you know that hurt me to hear. Maybe later I could ask about it more."
-"Ouch. Can't talk about that too much now, let's go on with what you were saying."


You get the idea, right? Either go out of the room and collect yourself, let him know it hurt and you want to talk more about it later, or let him know it hurt and MOVE HIM TO THE NEXT THING.

But you do not react angrily.

Reacting to it is not the issue. Reacting to it is something you need to POSTPONE - because you have to have time to process this later (later later later).





This conversation can set the tone for your future "talks". Your self-control in this one conversation can open up the trust door for him - if you do this right.

shut up and listen
use the rules
shut up and listen
do not react
shut up and listen
wait the extra time before you say anything
shut up and listen




5. At the end of about 25 minutes, you say to him, "You know, you have been so good to talk to me for nearly half an hour. I know how hard this is on you, and I know you hate marathons. Let's stop here, and we can pick it up again next (whatever day you pick). As you can see, I CAN do this with respect, and I CAN listen to you. I think I need some time to think about what you've said, and I think I can work on myself a little based on what you've revealed. Thanks for talking to me, and for your honesty (even if you don't think you got what you wanted, thank him)."


Then, do something ELSE with him. something positive...sit on the patio, light some candles, and eat some cake.


or something good



Do this.

Repair the damage and start again.


Plan A.

fix it


SB

teaser


That post of mine is NOT meant as a 2X4, by the way! I hope you don't take it that way. I wanted to help you use the strategies in the body language post and apply it to the lovebuster party you had - so you can repair what happened.

I think you can fix your marriage. I just think you can.

I think right now you are angry, and it's getting in your way. Don't let that happen, if you love him. Never let anger stop love from getting through.

SB

Points well taken and no, I don't look at it as 2x4s even though I am quite sure that I deserve them

Let me just clarify something though, this all started when I showed him your post as we had discussed,now its not like he was doing as you suggested, i.e. telling me the whole story, but he did offer a couple of sentences and then I started asking questions, remember, or perhaps you don't know, on D Day I did not only find out about one affair, I fond out about 4. I tend to put more emphasis on the 5 year one because in that situation, OW was a very close family friend and the fallout from that has been monstrous. Please don't get me wrong, I am not making any excuses for last night, but I don't believe that WH is capable of sitting down and talking to me for more than 10 minutes, thats as much honest and openness as he can handle, so being the investigator that I am, I then jump in with questions otherwise we will sit there in silence and thats not sarcasm.
I just showed him your response-I don't only show the ones that are favorable to me, so I pointed out that you were the same one that wrote the post last night which said that he should sit me down and tell me the whole story, are you ready for this? he says you did not say that in your post I told him yes she did, you know what that means? he was only humoring me, he did not read your entire post. Now I wonder how much of it he actually read.

I will however continue to pledge to shut up and listen.

My staff would have loved to see your post, I think they would be in shock that someone read me the riot acr-I am actually smiling cause that is exactly what I needed.
Thank you so much.

SB

He just informed me that he wants out.