Thanks for the reply.

Drucilla, you're a bit off the mark, I think. Here it is from my perspective.

Loves wants affection, all her recreational and quality time requirements met, an outgoing, hardworking provider, a great listener, a friend, a great father to discipline and teach our children, a beautiful SUV, vacations, an immaculate house inside and out, a safe neighborhood with great neighbors and a brand new school the kids can walk to in the morning...

BUT...

She wants - and EXPECTS - me to carry the burden to make all of these things happen. In fact, she is very content to work part time and make enough to pay for her 2001 Tahoe and its gas and insurance (which total about $800 per month) and that's it.

Forget the electricity bill at $200 to power the house 24/7, the gas bill for the hot showers and cozy temperature, the HOA, the groceries, the trash, the water.

I mean, these things cost a FORTUNE! Sometimes I wonder if she is truly aware of the expenses WE as a family incur. And why in hell should I have to foot the bill for all of the things WE share while she sleeps in and is too tired to make love to me at night?

Too tired? From what? I don't know. She doesn't know either. She says when she was in her apartment she had all this energy and now she is burnt out. I know why. SHe doesn't have to do anything. Complacency makes EVERYBODY lazy. Laziness results in being tired all the time and eventually depression. It's happened before and it's happened again.

I want Loves to work.. not just because of the money, but I think being out in the world and having challenges, getting your blood going keeps you alert and learning and growing with your spouse. But if Loves works, she's afraid she can't keep with the house. Why? Because she won't share chores with me.

I've even made a list of shared chores and hung it up in the kitchen and she has completely ignored it, even after agreeing to it.

She won't let me help out around the house. SHe won't even let me run errands when I offer (last night was a good example).

I feel like Loves is molding our RELATIONSHIP so it meets all her needs and completely ignores mine. I have worked SO hard to be communicative and open and listening and doing things Loves enjoys doing and being there for her and helping out around the house (cleaning carpet, helping move, furnishing rooms, shopping etc) and Loves couldn't even take 5 min to hear a song I'm working on all the way through yesterday.

I don't want to lose control of this relationship again as we have in the past.. but it's starting to slip because *I* feel Loves is going off into her own world again ... impatient and not shoing interest in what's important to me, defensive when I share my concerns, short with the kids, complacent, having no energy, sleeping in all morning while I'm at work paying our bills..

We have a lot more issues than I thought and it makes me very sad. We were off to such a great start.

We have another counseling appt. Wednesday. I hope Loves doesn't lose interest.

Lee43.. YOu've missed the crux of this thread. Loves is not just a 24/7 mom/wife by design. She won't LET me help her around the house. I WANT to help!! I can't! She's an excessive-compulsive cleaner and won't let anyone help. She is NOT a 24/7 mom/wife by CHOICE. SHe won't let me participate in these decisions. She has to do it all her way. I guess I would appreciate her position more if I supported it, but I've never got to have a say.

Lee43.. YOu've missed the crux of this thread. Loves is not just a 24/7 mom/wife by design. She won't LET me help her around the house. I WANT to help!! I can't! She's an excessive-compulsive cleaner and won't let anyone help. She is NOT a 24/7 mom/wife by CHOICE. SHe won't let me participate in these decisions. She has to do it all her way. I guess I would appreciate her position more if I supported it, but I've never got to have a say.

And when she DOES stay home with the kids and pick them up from school and all, she is SO tired by nighttime she's sound aasleep by 9pm.

Yeah, some "good life" for me too

And by "good life" I meant the vacations, the house, the cars, the STUFF.." My JOB is no walk in the park either.

And you sound like a man-hater <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

HR, I'm confused about something. You call your W lazy and say she doesn't do anything, yet you also say she is compulsive about cleaning the house. These are exact opposites. How do you approach her when you offer to help? It sounds as if neither one of you is really communicating effectively with the other. And maybe you have been trying to communicate but the way in which you are doing this is like trying to speak Martian to someone who only speaks French! Perhaps you both are not meeting each others ENs as well as you think. It looks like both are struggling for who will have CONTROL rather than thinking about what is in the best interest of the M.

And as one who has worked outside the home and is currently a sahm, I would not appreciate receiving the remark that somehow an outside job would do me good, as if I had no idea what life is all about.

ttkm

Lots going on here...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And why in hell should I have to foot the bill for all of the things WE share while she sleeps in and is too tired to make love to me at night?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Loves, I've noticed that H's who are satisfied sexually dont protest much about the other things... I see his point, he seems to feel he is already at the bottom of the list.

Does all this work satisfy you and make you happy? Do you really feel HR cannot help with housework? You know the world wont end if everything is not perfect?? It's all a balancing act, but it seems you are trying for too much? you know noone really has it all, right? What do you think about HR's last post? - Dru

I'm really at a loss. This morning it all came apart again.

For the past two weeks we have been working so hard on our relationship, going to counseling, posting in here, sharing, everything.. I was feeling good about it and every time I asked W how she was doing she told me she was doing "wonderful" and was so happy to be with her family again.

This morning she told me she was "sick of working for me," that she hates me for mistakes I've made in the past, that she had a way better life when she was in her apartment when she was single, that she can't do anything right, that I'm always nitpicking, that she was a fool for coming back.. oh and that these forums aren't doing her any good whatsoever..

?

All this came after I sent her an email this morning in which I communicated that I find it a bit frustrating that she sleeps in when I have to work and that I'd prefer it if we had less nightlights around the house (we have one in every room, hall and bathroom - I suggested one in each hall and the kids' bedrooms only.)

She now wants to hire movers to move her stuff back into her apartment, she thinks her hurt is too depp to recover from and she HATES me for what I've done to her.

I'm at a loss.

I don't know what more I can do short of getting a zipper for my mouth because she can't seem to tolerate anything that comes out of my mouth. She's got me walking on eggs again and afraid to communicate.

I'm really at a loss.

Big setback today.

Will have to start building emotional trust from scratch again.

Sad day.

HighRize,
Are you serious? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">by Loves: Over the next three years we separated 4 times and filed for divorce twice. Our last separation was the longest, 5 months and 3 months into the divorce process.

About 4 months into this last separation my husband decided that he wanted to give “us” another try. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you send her email about too many night lights?? You're not giving her much to look forward to, are you?

Sounds like Plan A for you? Have you two ever tried MC? Can you get her to agree to it, now? Do you want to start a new thread? Good luck - Dru

Two weeks is not long enough for good changes to become a habit. But neither of you have mentioned anything very positive, except Loves does say she loves you, HR. Be honest w/ yourself. Are you sure you're really meeting ENs? If that were the case, then the above posts would look very differently. I don't think it's impossible to work things out, but I don't see from these posts that you are working things out...just criticizing and judging. Obviously these posts are just snippits of your life, but that is what jumps out so far.

And money issues and nightlights are just symptoms of the bigger issue, which is control. If ONE of you wins, you both lose.

Perhaps I have a bias of some sort in reading this, but I'm interpreting both sides as using this for a forum to argue why they are right and the other person is wrong. What I'm not seeing is an attempt to meet each other halfway and POJA a solution. I'm hoping the two of you can use this as an OPPORTUNITY to learn how to work together instead of having your arguments validated so that you have ammunition for your side of the story. I can't remember where I read it, but I agree with the theory that money problems really aren't about money. And for me, this thread really validates that.

Hi all,
I read some of this thread quickly so forgive me if I missed or misinterpreted something. HighRize, I didn't ever hear what your car payment was or any of your extras. Not to undermine, but that is part of the pic also.

Perhaps, just maybe, money is only part of this issue. It could also be about control and/or lack of respect for each other, or lots of things that aren't brought to light here. Dig deeper, Loves and High, you may find that it is all just a cover for other things or just part of it all.
I really don't think Loves is leaving just because of her guilt or the money. As you admit High, there are past things. I often find that my H really misses the point when I am trying to explain things, esp. deep issues.... and I miss points also from him.
Not to hijack, but to make a point: My H and I often disagree about money, I also stay home and work just enuf to pay for a few things. This was a mutual decision, BUT I find the " I want, You want" arguments thoroughly unfair and biased, because he "makes" the money. I have indicated a want and been told, " If that's what you want, better start saving your money." Ha, like that is a fair or respectful response. I have never told him no, or even I don't think so, about purchases that he wants to make. I have had to "fight" for everything that I want, I now know that it is not a good thing to do, not following th POJA, if you have to fight it out. I must say though, my wants are not considered nearly as important as his, because it is "his" money.

This issue with my H and myself is a big issue and part of a larger issue, having to do with respect and equality. He will often say that I have the "harder" job, but then at another time, say that he wishes he had it so easy. And, no, this is my downtime, working on my M here... I also do not sit and eat bon-bons. We have 2 kids, one at school, one homeschooled, 5 horses, 3 dogs and a big messy house, 6+ acres that I take care of... and he thinks it has been unfair to him that he had to do the laundry in the past, which he is no longer responsible for. Be careful of that "division of labor" thing too, sorry High, but many non-stay-at-home spouses have no idea how that extra roll of TP gets into the closet or think that the bathrooms are self-cleaning. LOL, My H is guilty of this and also has no idea when any animals shots are due or where their food comes from, much less idea where his food comes from.
Also, we stay-at-home spouses spend A LOT of time with our kids, I know I do, and maintaining family and friend relationships, therefore showing our kids how important these things are. It IS the harder job, not a "daily grind" though, and I appreciate that I can be home, but the buck does NOT stop here. And kids may need you more, just want you less, as they get older. I find this true with my 13 yr old D. Then of course there is my 6 yr. old S, who called me lazy 'cause I wouldn't go to the store and get him pudding right then.

Anyway, sorry if I rambled, I just wanted to respond, as I can see part of Loves issues, and maybe issues underneath this one. And High, my H also feels "responsible" for maintaining the cash flow, but we all need to get a little perspective on this.

Good luck and read a lot here, it helps.
jl

Wanted to add that I also am new to this and I like the disclaimer that I have seen about free advice.
All of above is just my own opinion and may be biased as you can see.

I also have to say, High, PLEASE do not call your wife lazy, I caught my H on tape saying these things about me and all the things that he has to do, boy do I think he had the wrong idea. I may be a lot of things but - Lazy, I am not; Selfish, I am not. Creating a family atmosphere takes a whole lot more than money and running a household is a VERY tuff job.

jl

You said my wife wants the good life- suggesting that she contributes nothing and just lives off of you. It is that aspect of your statement that I was referring to. No, I am not a man hater at all, I am a hater of someone who seems to be very one sided in their view of who contributes and who doesn't.

What I'm really getting from your post now is what you object to is her insistance on doing it HER way. That I can understand. A marriage is a partnership and nobody in the relationship can do everything THEIR way without the other having problems with not being part of the decision making.

I do think you have a problem with understanding what her contribution is, however, and I think she has a problem with understanding what things cost and also with sharing the cleaning and other responsibilities.

Why not begin with deciding on a budget - what you can collectively afford to spend on extras and make some decisions that are reasonable.
This has to be done together, not just by you. She also needs to have money that she can use at her discretion without always having to consult you, but it has to be within the budget.

Then decide on who is going to do what regarding cleaning and this has to be done together, NOT JUST BY YOU.

You said I don't want to lose control of the relatoinship. Well, having control is not what being in a relationship is all about. If you look at this from a control perspective you are asking for resistance from your wife. She is a partner, not an employee, not a child, so everything needs to be decided on equally and no one should have "control" over the relationship.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You said my wife wants the good life- suggesting that she contributes nothing and just lives off of you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, you took some liberties with your interpretation.. nevertheless.. by "good life" I was saying "a lifestyle and material things that require a lot of money to sustain.."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I'm really getting from your post now is what you object to is her insistance on doing it HER way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, but it's not as if she's given me an ultimatum, we're trying to find a middle ground, that's all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do think you have a problem with understanding what her contribution is </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wait a second, I KNOW how hard her job is, I did it for 6 months while she was.. away. Yes, by myself. It's a never-ending process and there is ALWAYS something to do. I know this. That is why I have signed on to do 50% of all house chores, including cooking dinner, which I enjoy.

The problem is: she would PREFER to do EVERYTHING. She would prefer if I didn't help because she is a perfectionist and admittedly has some issues with letting go of control over the house, chores, etc. So it's not that I don't recognize and appreciate what she does. I want to participate but she traditionally has not really allowed me to. I feel that if I could do 50% of the work with kids/house, she could work 20 to 30 hours a week.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why not begin with deciding on a budget - what you can collectively afford to spend on extras and make some decisions that are reasonable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. Good idea.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This has to be done together, not just by you. She also needs to have money that she can use at her discretion without always having to consult you, but it has to be within the budget. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again, I agree. Traditionally she has not shown a lot of interest in helping me manage the finances, budgeting, etc. Therefore, she's not "in the know" when it comes to what we can and can't spend at any given time. We have tried TONS of ways to allot her disposable income to support her needs (groceries, clothes, fun, etc) and she INSISTS on not having any money...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You said I don't want to lose control of the relatoinship. Well, having control is not what being in a relationship is all about. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wait a second, I said "I don't want to lose control of this relationship as WE have in the past.." I wasn't talking about ME losing control. Trust me, I have **ZERO** desire to control my wife or our relationship. In fact I would prefer to be the one being LED, not LEADING all the time. She knows this as well. I've carried the leadership burden in the past because my wife has not wanted to deal with the bill headaches, the finances, etc. She traditionally has just wanted to remain"simple" and without "all that stress." Therefore, I end up carrying the burden and I grow resentful.

I WANT an equal partnership. I WANT equality. My wife knows this. It will be up to her to decide if she wants to begin (at some point) being a 50/50 partner.

<small>[ January 29, 2004, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: HighRize ]</small>

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<small>[ February 14, 2004, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: WhirrledPeas ]</small>