This is the first time I have posted, though I have been hanging around for nearly a year!

Last Christmas my wife told me she couldn’t make love to me for the moment and that she wasn’t in love with me, though she wanted to stay. It seems I pressured her too much for sex (guilty as charged) and it took its toll. At that point she had no desire or interest in sex.

Then at the summer she told me that she didn’t think she loved me before we got married ! I was crushed a second time.

During this time she has wanted space and for me to back off and not pressure her for affection or sex or ask when she will get out of this state. It has been really difficult, but I am getting better. She wants things to get better, but can’t say when our how it will happen. I guess she is in the “fog” that everyone talks about.

However, the other day I discovered after snooping around that she has been downloading porn recently – I think this is a recent development - mainly women on women stuff! I have been downloading also (what else am I meant to do?) and I must admit I found it a bit amusing and had a good time.

I want to talk to her about it and tell her that it’s ok by me (though if the current situation continues for ever, it would not be ok). She has told me in the past that she doesn’t mind me looking at porn and knows that I do it. But on the other hand, if this is a sign of her coming out of the woods, then I don’t want to upset things. She might be hurt by the invasion of privacy or she may feel pressure knowing that I know and fear that I will use it to get her to have sex with me (though I really want her to “make love” to me).

Any advice ? I’d like to hear women’s views on this.

Thanks.

upanddown

I would just be matter of fact about it. Like, "Guess what I found today when I was clearing out the internet cache" and ask her if she wants to talk about it. She will KNOW what you are talking about. If she chooses not to respond, tell her that you are willing to have an open and honest conversation whenever she is ready. DOn't make a huge deal out of it, I mean, I download woman on woman stuff and it doesn't mean I am coming out of the woods-there are no woods in my case. But anyway...it oculd signal she is curious in having a sexual relationship with someone else (female) because maybe she believes women will be softer, less pressuring. Allow her to open up emotionally by providing a nurturing environment!

Sounds like the porn dowloading is the least of your issues, but it may be a good conversation starter to discuss or initiate sex with her. How about suggesting you watch a girl on girl video together?

i agree w/ SheWill, the porn is the least of your problems.........the fact that the 2 of you are downloading porn instead of communicationg and working on SF together speeks volumes about your relationship.

but, as far as the woman on woman thing goes..i wouldn't be too worried about that. it's difficult to find good looking men in porn....unless they are gay.....and beautiful women are everywhere. women are more visual then they get credit for. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

Thanks for the input.

Sex if off the cards for the moment. She says she has an emotional barrier against it. I will have to wait, though I don't like it one bit. For me to initiate discussion about sex would just put her under pressure.

Otherwise things are improving. Just being able to live together without constant tension in the air is a huge relief for both of us.

uppanddown

i could be way off here.....you know yourwife and situation better than i do.
but,
if she is looking at porn because she is horny.....i think that YOU have a better chance at sex w/ her than you realize.
you just have to make it feel safe for her.
putting myself in her situation, i have a difficult time imagining that she doesn't want sex AND the intimacy it brings.

she just does not want to feel rushed and used......and you need to make her feel emotional safe and desired......and like it isn't JUST about sex for you.....that you crave the intimacy and care very much about her feeling safe and you want her to desire sex w/ YOU as much as you do w/ HER.
because it's about the 2 of you bonding tru great sex...........not just having sex/orgasm.(which is nice, but just not the same)
does that make any sense to you?

<small>[ January 24, 2004, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

This is amazing.

I'll bet dimes to donuts, had this been a woman posting that her husband downloads porn, every person on this message board would have responded and screamed "addiction to pornography". Because it's a woman, it gets 5 hits and almost falls off the board.

What a ridiculous double standard.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, the other day I discovered after snooping around that she has been downloading porn recently – I think this is a recent development </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Come on aeri....we can read ya know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> He says he's been pressuring her for sex....it's a recent development and that HE is downloading too! He does NOT say (as many of the folks who are described as having a porn problem) that a)they aren't having problems in their sex life b) she can't seem to stop or c)he doesn't like it.

However, the other day I discovered after snooping around that she has been downloading porn recently – I think this is a recent development - mainly women on women stuff!

Well....I would wonder if maybe she was homosexual since she seems to gravitate toward the "women on women" stuff. I am sure that women have gotten married to men only to discover later that they are lesbian.

The verbage she is using to descibe her feelings e.g. "wasn't in love with you".... "wanting space".... " didn't think she was in love when she married you" would make me question it also.

She is distancing herself from you...for some reason or another. I would ask her about the possibilty of her being sexually attracted to women....but that's just me.

JMHO
committed

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He does NOT say (as many of the folks who are described as having a porn problem) that a)they aren't having problems in their sex life b) she can't seem to stop or c)he doesn't like it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He's having a problem with his sex life. He's not getting enough. Isn't this how many women discover their husband's porn problem?

He doesn't say whether she can or cannot stop. This wouldn't have stopped anyone from cutting her to shreads if she had been a man....

He posted a thread called "Wife Downloads Porn", does that sound like he LIKES it? Obviously he's concerned!

It is my understanding from his original thread that he downloads porn because he has no other outlet for his sexual needs. You make it sound as if this is some mutual thing between them.

I still think there's a double standard. Everyone would have jumped on this thread with all kinds of advice, from dumping him to getting him "help" had it been a man.

Aeri:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by upanddown:
<strong> I want to talk to her about it and tell her that it’s ok by me </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">While porn addiction is extremely rare in women, it does happen...I just don't see the red flags here. From what I get, he is not offended or hurt by her porn use, as much as simply puzzled.

What I do see is emotional distance precluding sex, and two people both "filling in" with porn. The real question here is what is behind the emotional distance.

Upanddown...

the classic question when someone says they are not inlove is, what are the chances a third party is involved?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by committedandlovingit:
<strong>Well....I would wonder if maybe she was homosexual since she seems to gravitate toward the "women on women" stuff.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's certainly possible, but allow me to shed some light on the other side... I am a M who got caught looking at M-M porn. And I am not gay (although I am sure most people will call me a liar or in denial). At the risk of being too graphic (but it's important to my point), I am into "oral". While I much prefer watching a woman perform the act, I've never had any sort of hangup on watching two men. To my way of thinking, it's "just a mouth", no matter if it is male or female. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I never went seeking M-M porn, but if I happened to come across it, it would sit on my hard drive just like any other pics or vids I'd find on the net. I would say the hetero porn outnumbered the homo by about a 1000-1 ratio, but my W happened to click on one of the "wrong" ones one day when snooping.

I have since realized how damaging my porn addiction was, and that it was no different than if I had betrayed my W with a real flesh-and-blood affair. I am starting counseling for a sex addiction this week (can't wait to get started), but my W is understandably shaken. Her trust in me is gone, and therefore my contention that "I'm not gay" is useless. She seems to be in shock. I find it somewhat ironic that my W would probably have had a much easier time of this if I HAD been having a real affair with a real woman, rather than a masturbatory affair with gay porn. Talk about a double standard. Men who discover their W viewing lesbian porn will, in general, be excited about it. But vice versa, it's like the end of the world. At least it seems that way to me. We are physically separating over this, and my W says she just can't look at me the same anymore. I guess I can't blame her, and I can understand her reaction to a certain point... But at the same time, I'm having a hard time too, thinking that my W is probably just a little bit too closed-minded. I'm sure there are some women who, while not being thrilled, would not have the kind of horror-filled reaction that my W had, and could have handled this and kept going.

Anyhow, don't mean to take over with my story, but I figured my story might have some relevance to someone.

Best wishes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by *^aeri^*:
<strong>I'll bet dimes to donuts, had this been a woman posting that her husband downloads porn, every person on this message board would have responded and screamed "addiction to pornography". Because it's a woman, it gets 5 hits and almost falls off the board.

What a ridiculous double standard. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Haven't you learned yet, Aeri? When it comes to relationships, women are automatically the protagonists and men are the villians.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He's having a problem with his sex life. He's not getting enough. Isn't this how many women discover their husband's porn problem?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">aeri,

I said he is NOT saying they aren't having problems (which was probably confusing...since it means they ARE having problems...yikes!).

Alot of women come on here and say that their sex life is fine....but H prefers porn. That's when there is more worry that recreational porn use has become an addiction....when sex IS there and they use porn anyway. Sorry I wasn't clear.

Aside from saying that he'd like to "talk to her and tell her it's okay"....he also says:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I must admit I found it a bit amusing and had a good time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He sounds down right cavalier about it...which sends up more red flags to me about his use than hers to be honest. This just doesn't sound like a spouse who finds this a big problem in their relationship. The problem is lack of intimacy and sex....the porn use is probably a symptom and not the cause (AS IT IS WITH MANY MEN). I have been very vocal that women who withold sex....shouldn't whine too loudly about porn use. With sexual addictions....porn use displaces not replaces sex. Men or women who don't get sex....find replacements...growing more out of necessity than addiction....but it can be a slippery slope. Doesn't it sound to you like that's what they are both doing....replacing the lost intimacy.

If folks yelled "porn addiction!" there'd be complaints. Now no one did....and there's still complaints. Could it be it's not about gender and about the situation? The number of women who are becoming addicted to pornography IS rising....so I won't rule that out either. Still....it doesn't sound like POJAing porn use in this household is going to be a big problem ya know? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Nelly wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> if she is looking at porn because she is horny.....i think that YOU have a better chance at sex w/ her than you realize.
you just have to make it feel safe for her.
putting myself in her situation, i have a difficult time imagining that she doesn't want sex AND the intimacy it brings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Obviously she is horny and probably does want sex. The question is, does she want it with me ?! With so many bad memories of giving in to my demands, it's probably going to take time before she will feel safe, even if she feels horny.

I think nelly, you've got it right. It's just gonna take time ...

committedandlovingit :
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well....I would wonder if maybe she was homosexual since she seems to gravitate toward the "women on women" stuff. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One of the reasons I posted was find to out if this was unusual for hetero women. I get the feeling now that it's not that unusual, and doesn't mean that she's gay (see some of the othe posts here). I can get turned on by gay porn - and I'm definitely not gay. I assume women are the same (I should probably know better, though than to assume anything about women !!!).

kam6318:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> the classic question when someone says they are not inlove is, what are the chances a third party is involved? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think so. There's always that doubt though in the back of my mind, hence the snooping. But when I snoop, I don't find any strange email accounts, or any evidence - just porn!.

star*fish:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
He sounds down right cavalier about it...which sends up more red flags to me about his use than hers to be honest. This just doesn't sound like a spouse who finds this a big problem in their relationship. The problem is lack of intimacy and sex....the porn use is probably a symptom and not the cause (AS IT IS WITH MANY MEN). I have been very vocal that women who withold sex....shouldn't whine too loudly about porn use. With sexual addictions....porn use displaces not replaces sex. Men or women who don't get sex....find replacements...growing more out of necessity than addiction....but it can be a slippery slope. Doesn't it sound to you like that's what they are both doing....replacing the lost intimacy.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree the porn is a symptom, and I would give it up for my wife in a second. But I agree also it could be a slippery slope, and I suppose that's part of what worries me. I don't think I'm addicted, nor do I want it as a substitute to sex. But what if my wife prefers it to me ... ? I am more puzzled than offended. Long term occasional use wouldn't bother me, just if it becomes a substitute.


upanddown

if it's a substitute for you.......ofcourse you'd be bothered.
and that's what we hear women complain about all the time on this board...women will substitute masturbation for sex, when the sex gets bland, we like to orgasm too.
but,
women seeking and preferring porn is just a new twist we don't hear about too often...... now w/ the easy accsses to porn on the internet and the lack of intimacy and communications problems within relationships, i beleive we will hear about it more often.


personally, i am not concearned about the woman on woman stuff...i can relate to the poster who said he was into oral and when he sees it its just a mouth.....and lesbian porn is very easy to find on the net.
however....i suppose it could be a possibility...any other signs??

how was oral sex between the 2 of you when you were having sex? maybe that is something to think about. how was you communication about sex in the past?

the other reason she could be looking at it is because she knows you are and she wanted to check out what you like.
maybe it isn't as simple as she's horny and she's seeking porn.......although that is a possibility.
i wouldn't rule out the idea that she is missing admiration and affection and knows you download porn often and is confused by what you are after.
ofcourse, it may have started that way and then she got sucked in and now she does prefer it to you.........but, you'll never know unless you talk to her about it.

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

I am in law enforcement. We are seeing more and more evidence that up to 1/3 of porn is now viewed or purchased by women. Coincidently (or maybe not so much of a coincidence), we are seeing a rise in crimes perpetrated against children by women (mothers, baby sitters, teachers, etc.). We are seeing more incidences of sex crimes perpetrated by women.

I totally agree with Slap and aeri - there is a double standard and that issue has been addressed here before. Be advised that we will continue to see an increasing porn problem involving women and our society had better wake up and be prepared to face the consequences.

hpk,

I'm seeing the same kind of statistics that you are...and it is alarming. I'm going to the Smart Marriage conference in July....and women using porn is one of the hot topics. I think there is definitely a double standard about men and women viewing porn....just not necessarily on this thread. I don't think it's my duty to go into people's homes and tell them what they can or cannot POJA as far as porn is concerned. Like you, all I can do is give them the information about the potential danger. Since the H in this case is also viewing porn and finds it amusing however, I think that may be a waste of breath.

Upanddown does say that he would give up a porn in a second for his wife (and that's really encouraging)....lets hope his wife feels the same way. I think it's time for him to sit down with her and use some radical honesty to address this subject in spite of the possibility that it may embarrass her. Perhaps they can BOTH agree to forego porn for a while and work on rebuilding the intimacy in their marriage. At this point....I doubt that adding pornography is going encourage more intimacy between the two of them....and it has the potential to form some really bad habits that can impact healthy sexuality.

Star - I would be very interested in the materials Smart Marriage would use in dealing with the woman porn issue. Where is the conference? Do they have a website? Some materials would be very useful, not only in my job but in the church. This is a problem that will need to be addressed. Thanks for the info!

i have to agree that w/ the internet i can see this becoming a big problem in the future.
i don't know of too many women who like to buy magazines or rent porn flicks....too embarrassing.
but the internet makes it SO easy.

i honestly think that the reason i never got into porn was because it was not easily available and had a negative feel about it that i wouldn't want to be associated with (like shoplifting) .......but, given the chance to sneek a peek in private.....changes everything.

women are usually the ones seeking companionship and intimacy, if they start to sneek porn as young girls the way boys have for years......i shudder to think of what will happen.

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

upanddown,

this post has not completely kept to your question exactly, i thought i would put my 2 cents in.

If i understand this right, your wife told you, just over a year ago, that is christmas of 2002, that she did not want to have sex anymore and then during the summer of 2003, she tells you that she doubts she ever loved you. but that she wants to stay married. did i get that right? did she say why she wants to stay married? does she like you as a friend just not a lover?

is any of this acceptable to you??? I am guessing that if you have been reading at this site for a year, you must have some concerns about your marriage.

do you have kids? how long have you been married?
have you ever done any counsoling?

to me, having sex or not is extremely secondary to her statement that she doubts she loves you. what is the rest of your relationship like? and don't come back and tell me that everything else is just fine, because then you must be in some sort of fog.

regarding if she is having an affair or not, if she is not, great, BUT, if you two don't start actively getting to the bottom of what is going on, one of you may very well end up in an affair. but even if neither of you have an affair, i can't see how either of you can be very happy of feel very fufilled in the relationship.

to me it sounds like you have just accepted her decision to skip out of a sex life with you, that you are going to adjust, and "get better" at dealing with it. although that is admirable, i can't see how you will not eventually end up resenting it all.

it is right to accept her needs to not have sex, but in my humble opinion, it is not ok to accept that there is no plan to work out whatever is going on between you two. Plus I think there is much danger in waiting, if you wait so long that you lose your ability to give her the time she is asking for, then neither of you will be in an open mindset to work things out.

my advice to you... GET TO WORK!!! Marriage is work and your marriage needs a lot of work right now. as always, take what you want, leave the rest.

fyi: i speak from some experience, my husband withdrew from me emotionally and physically, we almost ended up divorcing and i did end up having the affair (although that is due to MY personality flaw and not to be blamed on the state of the marriage) bottom line, we needed help getting our relationship back, we did MC and we also attended a very helpful weekend sponsered by an organization called Retrouvaille.

good luck!!

Me - FWS, 40 (affairs undisclosed)
H - 43
married 17yrs
two kids 9yo boy, 14yo girl

hpk,
I would be very interested in the materials Smart Marriage would use in dealing with the woman porn issue. Where is the conference? Do they have a website?
www.smartmarriages.com.
You can also sign up for a newsletter.

I also thought that she could be gay or bisexual.

That would explain a whole lot don't you think?

Didn't really know if she loves you at any point.

Feels that you are always pressureing her for sex she doesn't want to have.

Wants to stay in the relationship- security, love from you, but no sex - safe -

Let's be realistic about this.. Isn't there a tendency for men to fantasize about 2 women together, but NOT a tendency for a woman to fantasize about two men together..and even there's the growing trend of "bi" women being glorified in the media.

It just a more "acceptable" fantasy. FANTASY being the main focus here. It doesn't have to be acted on.I think that's why there wasn't a big over reaction to the wife dowloads porn.

We just need to figure out why she doesn't want to be with you. Did you ever have a fulfilling life in that area?

So any new developments with your wife?
Have you discussed this with her?
Better, worse????....

bi sexual women are very glorified in the media>

look at that kiss between madonna and britney spears?

i find women in porn way more attractive then men.....and much easier to find.
unless you go to a gay site.
and i am not a lesbian.

so, unless he has more clue that she might be gay, i wouldn't worry about it.

but, i really would worry about the communication and why she isn't interested in sex w/ you.

FinallyLearning,

My wife says she wants to stay married, but at the moment she loves me as a friend. We also have three kids. She says she knows she should be in love and that something is missing, but that she can't wave a magic wand and make it come back. We have had counselling but she thinks any more counselling would just be saying the same things over again. She says she needs time and space to work thinks out, she thinks about it a lot and wants things to get better.

I am working hard at giving her space, and at the same time trying to create a "nurturing" environment. Everything else is maybe not OK, but getting better. We don't fight much, we get on well and still do things with the kids. She is definitely trying not to be tense and be considerate and happy.

I don't accept this state of affairs as a permanent solution, but temporary until hopefully my wife comes out of the fog, and hopefully realise that she does love me after all. I am not fulfilled at the moment and have a hole in my life, but I can only wait until it gets better.

But I can't do anything more. Anything else, talking too much etc. is pressure for her. I read a post from someone else the other day saying the same thing. Things didn't really start to improve until he took the pressure off his wife.

As for her being gay - I really don't think so.

I thought our sex life was fulfilling (nelly, she used to really like oral), but it seems a lot of the time she was giving into my pressuring her for sex out of guilt. I thinks she has too many negative feelings associated with sex with me at the moment. Looking back I see now that often she just let me get on with it. I think 10 yrs of being pressured for sex twice a week is one mega LB.

I spoke to her about the porn last night - she was on the internet for ages, so that gave me an opening. She didn't deny it, and we had a bit of a joke about it. But she clearly didn't want to be too open about it, so I just left it there.

We'll see what happens ...

...