If anyone here read my earlier threads where I was experiencing some serious rage towards my WH, and the fact that I was hitting him, you will certainly appreciate it when I say if my WH ever rolled his eyes at me I would kick his royal a$$.

No doubt about that one. kick a$$ and ask questions later.

I agree that rolling the eyes and sighing should deserve a 2x4 upside the head.

In the past, if I got a question that I had gotten previously, I would have this reaction because I had to rehash my lie again.

I'm done with that. I know that if I am going to give my wife what she has been looking for - the trickle truth process has to end.

I know that this is just one step in a long process, but I have to put down a timeline that covers my thoughts and feelings leading up to and after the events.

I try to post honestly with details and I want to get input from people that have been through this before. I appreciate the comments, feedback and if they come with 2x4s - my past tells me that they are well deserved.

Gee, someone who appreciates a 2X4.

Wish I was better at giving them. I don't do it often. You are one of a very few, so I guess you can consider yourself "blessed" in a way

Most of the time I think my 2X4's are more like Nerf 2X4's, but in your case I think I hit you hard.

But you appreciated it, so I won't even apologize! I can live with my guilt.

I hope your timeline comes along rapidly.

You know what might help?

Start with the first time you remember viewing your first type of porn. Your wife might find that interesting, because it might offer the both of you some insight into the early origins and feelings about this topic in your life. I wonder if once you visit your HONEST opinions into that issue, you might find yourself with a much different viewpoint of porn.

Also, I asked my husband to stop his porn viewing. He did this without question, without regret, and without problem, once we had a very detailed discussion on it.

Some of the things we talked about included the idea that he has two daughters, both of whom were beautiful blonde young women, of adult age. Both of them could be employed in the adult porn industry, and so could any number of their friends. We discussed how the parents of these women feel, how the actual REAL LIVES of these women must look like, how these women's lives with their parents are affected, how they must be treated when they date, how their children must be treated at school, how their "normal" jobs might be affected once they age out of the porn industry. We talked about how many of them use drugs so they can perform, and how many are addicted. We also talked about how many go into it expecting to make lots of money, but end up in low-budget films that don't pay off, and they end up doing other types of porn and prostitution to make up for what money they thought they would have. By making these women REAL, we then talked about their REAL bodies, and watched one video as we made the female in the video a REAL person and not just the sexualized object she once was.

What a life-changer. That video watching session? Didn't make it beyond four minutes or so. My H sat there in silence and shook his head, because our discussions that led up to the video had made the people seem too........sad.

Too real, and too sad.


Porn isn't attractive to him anymore. It is full of victims.


Schoolbus

Schoolbus,

I came on this sight to get feedback, advice from those that have gone through similar situations and if a 2x4 comes with the feedback - it's probably well deserved.

You mentioned the earliest remembrance of porn... my wife and I were talking about my use/need of porn recently and that came up.

With me it started when I was 12/13 and I found my older brothers magazines (stories, not pictures) and I would read a story and masturbate.

I never had a sex education course (catholic schools thru HS) nor a conversation about sex with my parents. In effect, what I learned about sex was through those stories.

Needless to say, my ideas about sex weren't very sophisticated, so when I met my wife (in our Jr year of HS) and later began to have sex with her - I wasn't very knowledgeable and we kind of learned together.

As I got older and my wife and I were married an in our own apartment, I would keep my porn viewing or reading secret.

When she did discover my viewing porn, she asked me to stop - I did and told me if you want to read it, show her what I bought, so that she knew what I was doing.

I got into reading stories on the internet, when she mentioned a site and she was okay with me viewing the site (she would read stories on the site as well).

The stories, after a while got to be the same and I found a site that allowed you to communicate with others (in this case a gay site). Once she found that I switched to that site and was starting to communicate with others that lead to our first bi blow up and caused my starting to lie, lash out at her, blame her, etc...

I was caught in a lie and rather than being honest - I choose the path that has lead me to where I am today.

Sorry, I went into so much detail, but use of porn, hiding the use from my wife, eventually lying about the type, use and frequency is a big part of my history.

I'm glad you had the guts and candor to be so honest SB. I am glad that I beleived in love and found it but I went through similar times in my life where I confused sexual behavior too.

I still have to remind myself from time to time that an attractive women can turn my head from the truth that beauty of the heart and strength of character is what really counts, and trying to see those qualitys when they don't exist in someone is a dangerous road.

The attraction of porn can sometimes pull a man in because when a guy sees a naked women in his head he is thinking "she wants me", and the industry knows it too. We need to be loved, and its such a short cut to just a very small part of what a relationship should, or could, be, when we try to fill our needs that way. Its just a counterfiet.

Sure its society that breeds this, but we don't have to buy it. We have either experienced real tenderness and commitment or at least we believe we deserve it at some time or level in our lives so what tempts us to sell it out? Sex is now veiwed as a commodity to be sold, we beleive we will be missing out if we don't get it and that its a right that if we don't go after it we are fools. In my mind that makes us fools.

So like the alcoholic who drinks because thier problems overwhelm them to drown thier sorrows, porn is a temporary fix that ignores the problem or how to address it and the guilt of it being in the dark even drives us farther away from a solution. When it is present in a marriage then there must be some kind of problem, but the root of it is fear and insecurity.

Like I said the porn industry feeds on this, does not care for the viewers mental or emotional health and are somewhere short of human beings. I am reminded of how women need attention, and how men are stimulated by sight, and the cycle goes round and round in the world and will for the rest of time. We don't have to be a victim of it, then one day we are not sure we are wanted or good enough or life isn't fair somehow and we fall victim of our own fears occasionnally. Its then we go to our wifes or husbands with guts and determination to stand by our commitments and not let the world or our own imaginations,fears, rip us off. Before we give up, but even after if nessesary, because we are human and need to be loved, we just need to learn what love is and not take any substitutes or counterfiets.

I don't want to sound holier than thow and I admit I have fell victim to porn myself before. I have never felt better or more loved after viewing it and it ALLWAYS was a substitute. Unless I stay away from it I will only hate myself and LOSE confidance and self respect. It would keep me from the goal of becoming secure, confidant, and in control. It will keep me from being able to really love unconditionally and objectivly see what is important in relationships too. Its more than sex, and we know it, its just so easy to use sex as an excuse and lack of it as the reason to look for the counterfiets sold every day. The quick fix that keeps us hooked on lies we bought that its not our problem. When it is a weakness we chose instead of the faith we would need to choose to challange ourselves. We can rise above if we choose to and its really that simple.

Those women on the porn sites are not selling love, or even good sex, they are in control of the men they manipulate and thats thier goal because they are messed up too. Who cares if they look good on the outside, the inside is twisted and NOT beuatiful and they are empty of love as they constantly look for attention from men and they think thats what they are worth. A fantasy that men will buy. There will allways be men who will buy it too, and they will sell it and keep them in thier control, weak men, hurt men, lost men. Those women will stay in control as long as we let them, and they have no love for us. They pity us yes, but they have no respect for us. Do we really deserve it?

An update on my timeline progress for those that are wondering about the benefits/reasons for doing it:

In trying to make sure that I have the right month/year that may help to tie in an event, my wife mentioned an event and it sparked a conversation that helped clear something up.

When I worked with the OW, she would leave me voicemails over the weekend. One Monday I came into work and later that day she asked why I didn't comment on her message.

It turns out that the message was saved, not new, so I did not know one was left. I commented that someone must have gotten into my voicemail and heard the message and saved it.

My thought was that it was either our boss or HR as maybe they were suspicious of something happening between the two of us (frowned upon in work) - due to the 2 of us arguing/not getting along recently. Turns out that the person listening was my wife.

Shortly after D-Day, the OW left a message crying that started with "I don't care who hears this..."

My wife was the one who first heard the message and asked me if I had told her (the OW) that my wife was listening to the messages. I told her no (which was the truth), but because of the comment in the message, she thought I was lying. Over the years, when we would talk, this would come up and my insisting that I didn't say anything to the OW upset my wife; she would ask why I would continue to lie when she had proof (the voicemail message).

Today, though, when this story came up again, and I told her about how I thought boss/HR might be listening - everything made sense to her, and now she believes me on this point.

So it helped to clear up something that caused her to wonder if I had ever really wanted to be open and honest.

I still have a ways to go with the timeline, but I already see the benefits of doing it.

Glad to see you are doing the timeline. Your phone records and credit card records should be able to help you with it.

Also, if you keep a calendar at work for appointments, that can trigger memories that you might otherwise not recall. Sometimes an even unrelated event to your affair activities will trigger a memory of something you did that day. Memories for events can be recalled this way because they are tied to other events on a day. Look at everything you have on hand - old receipts, photos, calendars, bills, etc. Whether you think they will help or not, they may.


On the subject of porn, I asked about your early experiences because your insight into your own history of how porn makes you feel about sex and about yourself - and about your wife - can help in what you are doing with it now.

I think it is interesting, and don't you, that my question went to your porn, and you brought in religion, and your sexual history with your wife? You brought in your sense of lack of experience with sex, and how porn and this sense played a role in your early experiences with your wife.....



Where are you now............



Because you are NOW still holding onto this as a child holds onto a pacifier.

Your own fears appear in your grasp on porn. From my POV it looks like you are afraid of fully opening your sexual life up with your wife

so you hang onto a fantasy one with porn

because you fear failure and lack of experience?



Only


the truth is


you passed that part of your life a very long time ago.


I think you probably COULD get it right...without porn...if you tried.

Schoolbus,

I may not be grasping your comment about my use of porn today (recently).

My wife and I have a normal, healthy sex life. My current use of porn was not due to the two of us not doing something that I had wanted, so I read porn to make up for that loss.

I guess I went back to looking at it as it is something that I had always viewed/read and since I had time on my hands, I fell back to wasting my time with it.

I know that in the past, my involvement with porn was to create fantasy, to use the stories as a substitute for something that I could not get or would not ask of from my wife, but there hs been discussions about this with my wife and I don't think that is the reason any longer.

Sorry if I'm not getting it or disagree with your comments, but I do greatly appreciate your comments/feedback and hope to see more as I continue to work through my issues.

An update...

Continue to work on my timeline by filling in thoughts, reasons and feelings for the time/items in question.

It's a long process but when you do it, you realize what was done, over how long of a period of time and you can really see what you put your spouse through.

Also, I have read other posts and can see how a little gesture goes a long way. It usually doesn't take a lot of time to do and you can have fun doing it. An example..

A through Z of compliments. Take them 2 or 3 at a time and use the letter to start a word or phrase.

I started to do it this past week and my wife really appreciates it and all it took was 10 -15 minutes (would b quicker if I had a better vocabulary).

So if others are struggling to show your spouse why you apprecite them or would like to give them a compliment, take a few minutes and have fun with it.

Looking for some feedback.

I feel that this forum has provided me with feedback, advice and has helped to keep me on the straight and narrow.

Either by posting on this thread or posting on someone that has had similar experiences has helped.

I would like other ideas as to how I can use this site to continue to improve.

Would appreciate any comments.

Hey there, im interested in this as im wondering if we can help each other out with ideas to make our wives happy. Im kind of at the same point as you say in my quoted section.

Ive done a simliar thing with the a-z compliments but I struggled with the delivery but am definately thinking enough time has passed now that I may try it again with more confidence this time.

Hope things are improving for you, hope to speak soon, feel free to PM if you wish

Take care

yllan,

I have been just saying the different letters to my wife on a daily basis, but if you wanted to do it differently and make it something that could be as a gift/remembrance - pick up a photo album or a scrapbook and write the thought on a post it note and give the post it (letter) to her daily. At the end of the month, she has a book with compliments/thoughts from A-Z.

My wife had picked up a scrapbook and did this with compliments that I used to give her. I plan on re-doing the A-Z compliments on post its and adding them to a new scrapbook for her.

As for how things are going - in the process of putting together a timeline that will cover events in our relationship and then writing down what I was thinking, feeling - as well as what was done/said.

I have been doing the trickle truth process to my wife over the years and want to do this to make sure that everything is laid out and hopefully helps her finally make sense of the pieces of information that I had given her over the years.

Hope things are going well with you.

Remember, don't lose focus on the big picture by focusing on the little things.

Best of luck and will keep up with your post.

CGIR,

So if your return to porn isn't fears, I can understand that. I wondered because your description of your early adventures and experiences with it seemed to bring up your thoughts of that. The pairing there made me think that - or, better stated, made YOU say those things together, making me wonder if the thoughts were related. Perhaps early on they were. Which was why I asked where you were "now".

So looking at you from the "outside" and seeing what you write about your use now, here's what I see. You have what you describe as a healthy sex life with your wife. That would translate in my mind to one that you are satisfied with.

To me, then, the draw to porn is filling an emotional need for you in some area.

What is that?

You point to your reasons - sort of falling back to it and wasting time with it. Is this akin to boredom? I'm not sure of why you go there.

I find it interesting, because this to me is not logical, and my mind operates so very logically that I kind of work like Mr. Spock sometimes.

I thought about you on a long drive the other day. Here are those musings. I am hoping that what I thought might be helpful, they are kind of global in nature.

I wondered about the kind of thought process that leads us to fail to listen to the voice in our own head that says,

"Do not do this. It is wrong, and it goes against that which I know to be the very thing I do not want myself to do."

Everyone is faced with this voice at one point or another, and everyone has ignored it, at least once, too.

There are those of us who repeatedly ignore it, others who pay attention and self-regulate.

What drives the person who repeatedly goes against the voice?

I thought about this. This person hears the voice, and weighs the options of the CHOICE before him.

Let's take adultery for example.

I want to have an affair, the voice says, "Bad idea." I hear the voice, and begin to weigh my options. I look at the moral issues (MY OWN MORALS) and decide what I can live with in terms of a decision. I reflect on what I think society, others in my life, my spouse, my coworkers, and many other people would think if they found out. I weigh in very heavily - most heavily what *I* want. I may factor in those things such as other consequences - financial, emotional, career, whatever, that may impact me as well. This may happen in the blink of an eye, or may happen over the course of months. But it happens.

In any case, if I CHOOSE to ignore the "bad idea" voice, I have come up with what I have CHOSEN to be the justifications for my behavior.


None of this happens in a vacuum. Whether the decision was a quick one or a long, drawn-out one, I thought about it, and made my CHOICE.


If I repeat this process, and have another affair, I have experience under my belt. I already have the system in place, the justifications laid out, and the reasoning drawn up to follow this plan to its desired end - that is, so that I can do what I CHOOSE - to have the affair. I could opt to CHOOSE not to, because as a matter of FACT, the person I am arguing against is myself. I could just as easily argue myself out of my own CHOICE, couldn't I?



The point is, that these issues that we find so much of a "struggle" with are often not truly a struggle whatsoever.

They are our own attempts to justify and continue behavior that we

CHOOSE.


Yes. Your use of porn is something that you choose to do. Simply stated, whatever reason you may find, whatever the origin, whatever the purported justification for the continuation of the use of it now,

it is simply your own choice to continue it.


Somewhere in this cycle, porn pleases you. Somewhere in the options you weighed, you did consider the consequences of how your wife might feel about it, how you might feel about yourself after you view it, how its continued presence in your life bothers you,

yet

your ongoing use points to the fact that you still

choose it.


Just as you chose the affair for so long..........and chose it in spite of the options you had.


Same difference. Just something else you need to quit. Cold turkey.


Look at it that way.

Schoolbus

Schoolbus, that post was amazing. I am saving it.

lurioosi2,

I think they make me drive long distances at work because when I get to the next place, I often have good thoughts like this.


I liked what I came up with this time! Too bad for them I wasn't thinking about WORK - ha!

Then again, maybe I could apply it for work needs. One of the clients might need this. Shoot. And here I thought I got away with goofing off.



SB

, schoolbus! Great post!

Hey Sb
I soooo love this post.

I am thinking that I would like to show it to WH, however, I am a little scared to do so since the last time I showed your post to him, things did not go so well. But the reason why I want to show it to him is this, in our discussions regarding his affairs, especially the 5 year one, he keeps telling me that it JUST HAPPENED, I keep telling him I don't think so, there was a choice that was made, a conscious one and he made a bad choice having regard for all the negative ramifications. He continuously tells me that he did not really give any thought to me or DD. I don't know if he realizes how much that hurts to hear him say that, I say to him, there is 365 days to a year, multiply that by 5, and you are telling me that not once did you say to yourself, I really ought not to continue to do this, it will hurt my wife and my child. He says no. So then where do I go from there? see, the problem is, either answer is a bad one, because the other choice would be to say, yes I thought about you guys but then said, to hell with it, I have my needs, and they must be met at all costs. But with the latter choice, at least we crossed his radar, know what I mean?

Do you think the answer he is giving, he gives it because in his mind he thinks that is the least hurtful of the 2 choices? I mean I want the truth.

teaser,

He of course considered the impact of the affair on the family at some point over the course of 5 years. To say anything to the contrary is absurd.

There would only be a very extreme case - that of a psychopath for example - where a person would not be able to feel and empathize with the injured parties and not consider this impact of one's own behavior. Add into this the idea that your husband's behavior occurred over five years' time? No way did he completely fail to consider the family. He is a liar about this aspect of the issue, and you can call him on it.

Furthermore, let's say "HE" did NOT consider the family. What are the odds that the OW did not bring this subject up at any time over the course of the five years?


Your husband is a liar.

teaser:

The fact that he compartmentalized the issue TELLS YOU that he considered the family. He compartmentalized BECAUSE he considered the family. Compartmentalizing is a protective measure so he does not have to DEAL with the question!!!!!


Therefore - the question WAS ASKED. Your husband CHOSE to avoid the question, chose to ignore this question, and

CHOSE THE AFFAIR.

He cannot escape this fact. In FACT, he is still avoiding this question. Interesting, isn't it?

Give him this post, and the other one. Let him read them.

Also - when you give him these posts, give him the book "Leadership and Self-Deception: Getting out of the box". Because your husband needs to understand that HE is the one in his life who has the problem.

The book is geared towards businessmen who have difficulty at work, and don't really get along well with others. They tend to blame everyone at work, and can't figure out why nobody at work will get in line with their ideas, their way of doing things.

The fact is - that THEY are the one with the problem, and THEY need to do some major changing. They blame everyone else for their bad decisions, their poor relationships, and their

TAKER attitude.

Your husband needs to figure out how being open and honest about himself could buy his way into a much better marriage, life, career

and world.

He is locked. The problem is - my bet is that he will deny he has any problems at all. He is saying that as he reads this, and will likely not even admit that he needs any help at all.

That's too bad. He could improve.

Another CHOICE he could make.


SB

School Bus rock?.... Oh thats SchoolHouse well same difference

SB

Thank you so much for your response, I have e mailed it to him.

I am quite interested in seeing his response.
I don't really want to abuse CGIR's thread with my issues, but this has been a source of great misery for both me and DD.
The problem I am having now, is feeling like I am begging for honesty.
I am now going to sit back and let him set both the pace and the direction that we are going and take it from there. I am tired, I am frustrated and angry, that after all the crap I found out on D Day, I have been the one trying to find solutions while he sits on his a$$ and I have reached my boiling point, if he wants me then he will darn well have to work for it and getting me can only happen with full disclosure, I will settle for nothing less.