I would do it before you went away.

1) it would let him know how serious you are about the marraige and your commitment so he wouldn't think you wee doing anything wrong while your gone.
2) It will give him a few days to think about it alone, without any distractions.


Besides that I am assuming you both couldn't go on the trip together, so that is why you are leaving him alone with your marriage in the state it is. The other side is maybe its a good idea considering hes a PITA lately.

Either way God Bless Hitch

Hi constant

I booked the trip a few months ago pre MB. It is the first time I have been away since new year and am looking forward to the break. I will communicate to him before we go.

Do you think I did ok with the conversation about his phone?

Before you go PLEASE put a VAR in the bedroom, and in the car. And also while you are at it put a GPS on his car.

I am not liking you going away for a weekend with the girls.

Right now I actually feel like I don't want to be married to him. Just having a rant, but called him on his phone about 1030pm a couple of times and he did not answer.

I left him a voice message saying, can you please answer your phone, it makes me suspicious when you do not answer.

He came home about 15 minutes later. Drink driving again, he looked like he had too much to drink. I asked him why he didn't answer his phone, he said it was on silent as he was at the golf club and I said that it seems a coincidence that each time I phone, you don't answer. I phoned you on Monday when you were shopping and you didn't answer. That makes me think you were with someone, he just responded by saying thats your own suspicious mind and I was at the golf club. He also added that I only phone him everytime he leaves the house. I said OK if there is nothing to be suspicious about then show me your phone, he said no. Do you know what Jim Flint and JL are right, he is getting a kick out of punishing me. I am not sure I even LIKE this person, let alone want to rebuild a M with him.

I also said to him, quit treating me how you treat your mother and quit treating me how she treats other people. He just said OK and walked out the room. It is pointless talking to him when he has been drinking, it does not register.

I am so fed up of him right now, and just look at him and think pathetic. I am also having withdrawal symptoms for OM, just so I could phone someone up and be nice to me, mature and understanding. I really want to just tell my husband how it is that his behaviour is appalling. I am so fed up with him that I am finding it difficult to do any CARROT.

It is so tough because I can see my family and friends are so appalled how he is treating me, and everyone just wants me to walk. I think the thing is he has actually started to calm down, but my fear is as he starts to calm down and recommit, all the anger I have held onto the past 6 months of bad treatment will surface. I believe it is starting to surface now.

You sent the signal you wanted to send. I know it's all new and feels artificial and forced and it's hard to know how to lay it out without seeming defensive or bitchy. At least that's my experience. Hopefully, I will get to the point where I stop weighing and analyzing every word I say. It's exhausting.


Next time tell your sister directly. No more pussyfooting around.

This is kind of strange because the first boundary I consciously set was with my sister, and my H was dumbfounded. Shades of things to come�..

Talk to H before you go. Now is good. You are stressing so much about this. Get it over with. I wish you weren�t going away � the timing stinks. But since you are, you may as well get the most out of it and if you are stewing about this you won�t come back renewed.

Do this for yourself though: set a boundary with H before you go on communication � like �If I call you, I expect you to answer or return my call within 5 minutes.� Tell him what action you are going to take if he doesn�t honor your boundary. I�m fresh out of ideas as to what that action might be.

I left my phone in the car last week and my H called a couple of times and freaked out when I didn't answer. I'm not a big phone person (to put it mildly) but I keep it with me at all times now or text him I'm leaving it in the car or it's about to die or whatever. I just wasn't thinking, but I learned something.

If you have the big conversation and then go away and try to call him and he doesn�t answer for hours on end, it will drive you mad. He has a golden opportunity to mess with your head to bring you back into line just by not answering his phone. He�s going to do what he�s going to do while you are gone so trying to keep tabs on him via the phone is pointless and you will end up feeling needy and pathetic.

DO NOT CALL OM. Forget about your H. Don't do that to yourself. YOU MATTER. You ARE your values.

You are angry and lonely and scared. Feel that stuff. It isn't going to kill you. You don't have to act on your feelings -- in fact don't act on your feelings.

Contacting OM would be an act of self hatred. Would you take a razor blade and slice it across your cheek to make yourself ugly? Contacting OM will make you ugly on the inside. You've temporarily forgotten what it's like to be a trashy lying cheater. It's hideous.

OM is mature and understanding? OM is a sleazy POS who slept with another sleazy POS married woman and that would happen to have been YOU. And yes, I mean to be harsh, and I get to say that because I am a sleazy POS married woman too, but I am never, ever, ever going to be that person again and neither are you.

Don't make me get on a plane and fly over there young lady....I can be mean as a snake when I need to be.

Hitch, honey, I really want you to listen to me because, despite my WW status, I do know what I am talking about here -- I've lived longer and raised children.

You are going to have to draw a line in the sand with your H.

Before your A, you didn't draw any lines with him because you didn't know you could, you didn't think you deserved to, or you made an assumption that at "I do" your H became a mind reader.

How did that work out for you?

Your A didn't break your line drawing stick. You are choosing not to use because you are scared.

How's that working out for you?

From where I sit, it looks like you are raising your first child. Would you allow your 15 year old son to get away with the bs your H is feeding you? If so, don't procreate because you will have a miserable life and your kids will be a menace to society.

What do you want him to DO? Show you his phone, come home every night by X, give you his phone records, answer the phone when you call. I don't know but you do.

Why aren't you drawing any lines? I really want you to answer that question. What's holding you back?

Here is the critical piece that I think you just don't get. If you D, there is a whole world of men out there who will treat you the exact same way. We are attracted to men like that for whatever reason, and they LOVE us. There is no shortage of predatory, manipulative men and we have big old targets on our backs saying "Use me!".

I'm getting that target off my back no matter what it takes. I want you to do the same.

So please, please, draw a line.

Hi All

Had a lovely break, felt a little bit anxious about the situation but really enjoyed being with good friends.

Well I came home to a different Husband, it obviously did him good for me to go away because he completely missed me. I came home to a house that had been cleaned top to bottom, he wanted to be around me all the time and made me dinner, but most importantly the way he communicated with me was without anger or nastiness.

He has been ill for a few days now so have been looking after him, but still need to have the conversation with him to decide how we go forward.

On another note, I am starting to feel quite upset and angry for the way he has treated me too. I suppose now my Husband is coming on board more, the hurt about the OW is coming up. I still have lots of questions about that. I also have the feeling at times that what we have been through is a major embarassment. I hear of similar stories on this web site, but I have not heard of anyone in our socila circle being through something so damaging (my affair/his affairs). I know most people are against reconciliation. One of my GF asked me at the weekend - are you going to renew your wedding vows?!!

Hi

Been spending lots of time with my Husband lately, which is good. Today we went shopping for clothes for him, as we wondered round the shops he got angry with me a couple of times, once because I saw him stare at a girl and made a funny face at him, he then get really annoyed and said to me why are you trying to make me feel guilty. He winged all day, got irritated lots and generally I found it quite stressful.

Anyway, I am approaching 35 and the whole fertility thing is getting to me a lot as this birthday approaches, and I also found out from a friend that another friend found it difficult to tell me she was pregnant as she knew how much I wanted a child. This has really upset me as people must pick up on it (I haven't mentioned it). So I decided to let me husband know (open & honest) that I was a bit upset at the moment with my 35 birthday approaching with the whole fertility thing. Husband then got quite irritated with me and said that I don't have much sympathy for you Hitch you have brought this whole situation on yourself, we could have had a baby by now, he also said he is not sure he wants children now as he has left it too late. I am sure he said this to make me feel bad. I then spent the next 30 mins in tears. He stopped at a shop, and bought me flowers out.

I wish he could comfort me with words rather than with flowers. I just sometimes look at him and don't like what I see. Help.

I will probably get 2 x 4 for this.

This is normal Hitch and it is good that you told H about it all, reguardless of his response, it was about a very important emotional issue on both parts.
I assume you meant he FELT it was to late. But you know this isn't true don't you? I mean that he felt it was is or could be, that it IS to late was not true.

He is still with you, and yes he is saying things that hurt you, but do you know how a mans mind works when it comes to adultry? Especially a man who acted like a kid and did what he wanted most of the time. Let me see if I can show you what I see from the sitch, hitch.

First you have been married a while and he didn't take the time to really romance you anymore. Along with Independant behavior ,(IB), that left you out of his life for most of the time. Assuming that you mentioned how much you needed more and was not happy with his behavior and he ignored you and continued to act like he was your kid. Expecting you to carry the load for the love in a marriage, (Which he learned from his Mom), and really didn't see the need to participate, which he also thought he wasn't capable anyway, which he learned from, well I guess his homelife.

Now you said his Mom was overbearing and critical, and I think his Dad was passive? What do you think that kind of relationship teaches a boy? It means don't bother, your not able anyway, see Mommy is in charge and holds it all together, She knows about love, boys don't. Typical Gender crap many buy into becasue women are more in tune to relationships, but that doesn't mean they know everything about love. Every women who is in a healthy marriage knows that the Husband brings his half to creating it and respects and expects him to, but its different than what a women brings, its supposed to be, hes a man.

So how do men learn things? Can you say 2X4? Look at how they think, The very things that make them strong can turn against them. What women wants a Man without conviction? But the strong will that doesn't get guidance can make a man stubborn and selfish. The will that is treated as irellevant is only redirected unless it is crushed. Basically your husband does not even know he has the power to be a man who cares for you actively, or doesn't even have a clue where to start, so he trusts it will exist without his participation, just like it allways has. He really was never taught right, thats all.

But he is still a man who has to have things spelled out for him and many times they wont change untill they HAVE TO. I can see why he didn't bother at home as a young child. I assume he has allways sidestepped his Mom to do what he wants without asking permission, and did not try to shoulder responsibility for the emotional well-being of others. 1 because he was treated like he couldn't and 2 because he didn't have to.

Have you ever heard the saying,"If you want to know how a Man will treat you look at how he treats his Mother"? Now this is not of course a death sentence to how a Man will treat a women, but it depends on what bad examples or training he has had. He can learn, but he needs to be shown, up front, in the open, with all the consequences understood, you both now have that chance to learn.

So lets assume that, heck lets just say it, Up front, honest, unafraid of the consequences of doing what we KNOW is right, is the most effective way to communicate to each other. Its the only way to be free and to live. Most men respect that, even if they don't agree with the other person, they respect the person and TRUST that. In the end they trust the intentions of someone who will tell it like they see it, even if they don't agree.

In his mind he has lost respect for you because of the affair, and yes you, the holder of all the responsibity of your relationship, even if it wasn't fair that you were, betrayed him. He doesn't know anything different because he was never taught anything differnt and to teach him with respect you would have told him you were not happy with things the way they are and if he didn't change it was time to separate and/or divorce. I'm sure that even in his bad habits that were learned from wherever he still knows what up front and honest are.

In our mind when we are making love to our wifes the feelings of confidance we have and the natural domination mix. We need to be needed in that way. Some say our egos are fragile and I believe that when it comes to sex its supposed to be that way. But what happens to men is thier confidance in themselves is damaged and fear steps in when they feel like they aren't respected. That is natural, they are the king in the bedroom and there wife is the queen, there is nobody else. If something is threatening that unity, they becaome afraid and defensive, fight or flight. It takes quite a while with demonstrated behavior to re-establish the unity. It has nothing to do with whether he was a poor king or not, its a whole different thing inside that damages our egos, and its deeper than most men think untill it happens to them, and it takes time to understand it also.

In short your H was acting like a little boy who put his trust in you in that department and you broke his heart. He is having a really hard time trusting you again and can't see why you broke down and betrayed him. You agree that it was a mistake on how you handled it we know. But we are objective because we are not you or him. There really is no understanding that we have that will replace what both of you must come to in your hearts toward one another.

Its a hard lesson that has happened to many in this world and it will take time to straighten it all out between you but its up to both of you and all you can do is your part, and he his. If he wants it to go back to the way it was and just stays mad it will be hard, but now you have asked forgiveness and been doing all you can while he prosesses his end, and you can't, and shouldn't go back. It can be a growth time for your marriage by difficult and painful misguided means but you can recover. If you want it bad enough.

He gave you flowers? Well he still cares then doesn't he?

Maybe you are in the perfect position to open your eyes to who he is, and appreciate that he was your faithful H, with all his faults, and now you BOTH have a chance to grow together. Betrayal of our vows to love each other can come in many forms. Do you see how the relationship of his parents has flaws now? Can you see also many marriges can last but not be healthy or happy?

You and H can leave each other and boo-hoo how unfortunate the demise of your marriage or you can come to the realization that you need help and fight for what marriage can be. Guess what? Its pouring love and respect out on each other and you are learning how to, or denying the nessesity, either one, you pick. You reap what you sow, an the results take time to grow. Will you take the time? I hope so.

You both have a chance now to see each other as God sees you, weak and frail and in need of instruction. Will you accept this and love while you work to grow together? I pray you both can.

Hitch, I have not followed your thread. However, even scanning a few things in the post preceding this makes me concerned. More importantly, on the Elizabeth Gilbert thread, you said:


If I were your BH, I would be very concerned about this.

Does he read/post here? I think it could help you two immensely if he did.

Hitch2007,
It sounds like your husband is still hanging in there and is starting to come around, this takes a bit of time, all you can do is the right things, say the right things, he will see you as changing who you are and he will start to remember the woman he married.....
Make him feel special and you will see you will get that in return, but this takes time to change.....
Tell him you understand his feelings about a child right now, bringing a life into this world when things are unresolved between the two of you is probably not a good idea, tell him you understand his feelings on this.......I'm sure after 6 months of trying to re-build a good marriage he will feel safer when he thinks of children......You are not out of time yet, but if the marriage doesn't get better you might be.......he bought you flowers didn't you, he loves you.....he is doing the best he can with the insecurities he is feeling, Hitch he would be gone if he wanted to be......he is with you, he is looking for you to be that woman he can trust and love again and build that future with.........
Don't give up, slow and steady is the plan.........I'm 10 months out and things are now better than they ever were between my husband and myself......
In the beginning I thought there wasn't any hope either........
Time changes how we feel, but it takes love and commitment on our parts.....

Jessitaylor - thank you. Yes I really do feel as though we are making good progress, I am getting really good at letting some stuff going over my head, but it is starting to hit me lately about the OW he has had over the last year, yikes, we are in a much better place now, and I feel so much more like things could sort themselves out. he has not ended all contact with OW has I saw one of the OW contacting him on facebook instant messenger. I have told him again that I will not remain in a marriage where he is in contact with them.

Mrs Vanilla - I am not in agreement with all of Elizabeth Gilberts principles, but I believe there is a lot of assumptions people are making about her. What she did differently to me, is she chose to end the marriage, start divorce proceedings and then had a fling with OM. Whereas I, had an affair and had made no attempt to end the marriage, I had the affair for 2 weeks, then moved out of the marital home, then 4 weeks later realised I made a terrible mistake. 18 months later I am only just starting to rebuild things with my husband. I am not saying all of this is right, but I don't like the way people are talking about her on the 'eat, love, love, pray' thread. Saying things like I hope her second marriage ends in disaster. Elizabeth has spent a lot of time researching marriage in her second book Commited as she recognises she failed miserably at her first marriage.

Constant

Thank you for your detailed response, your words are very soothing in many ways. It makes me think positively rather than so negatively which I am prone to!

It makes me look at the bigger picture of someone's behaviour rather than make big assumptions. We are making progress, sometimes I get so impatient and just wish for my Husband back, sometimes I see glimpses. Oh god, if I only knew the devastation that this would cause, things would have been so different. It is strange now though, as I feel very uncomfortable with men in so many situations. For example, at work if men are flirtatious with me, I cringe, or if I see a married man coming onto a women I want to run up and say something. It actually makes me want to leave the office environment because I do think affairs are rife here (not to me, but that environment is where my affair started and where I hear talk of others, so makes me cringe). I just don't want to be in any situation where I men feel they can come on to me, they may not even say anything but just by looking at you when you are not looking or something, yuk.

I met up with a friend of a friend last week, I found out afterwards that she is in a 7 month affair with a married man with 2 children. I am so traumatised by it I can hardly speak to her now. No one is confronting her and letting them know how wrong it is. There is something even worse, that I have never shared here as I don't want it to taint the forums view of me even further, I just can't share it, but it is awful, something that my best friend has done. I am finding it difficult to be in her company.

I like having a mans perspective Constant, it helps me understand you guys more! I am not that great you know, in fact terrible at communicating and understanding men.

I spent the day with my husband today doing the garden and going out to get some new plants ect... I really enjoyed it. Its so funny how much my heart glows just little things like when he says my name, or tells me about certain plants (he is very knowledgeable in that area).

Yes I do see the flaws of his parents marriage, it is hideous. I did find out that my FIL had an affair when their children were little, I sometimes wonder if my MIL has spent the duration of the life punishing him for this. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors.

I can say one thing that is weird about my husband I think he has this fear I am going to try and control him, I am always very mindful of this. So when he says things like I am going to go away for a week on my own, I know he will never do it, he is testing me, to almost say I can do this if I want to. It is like what you say Constant, that he is being defensive. However, his actions speak louder than words. for example, yesterday he bought me flowers when I was upset, and then later on he came into the lounge and gave me a big hug then walked out. Do you think men are more about actions rather than words? My H words sometimes are the opposite of his actions??!!

Thanks again, Hitch.

Constant

I have had some more thoughts on your posts;





Do you know what, I think the affair has hit him doubly hard, because he spent the entire time of our relationship 8 years, trying to defend me with his mother and let her know how great I was. I think this is one of the many reasons he is so damaged about the affair, as it proved as though his mother was right about me, and could say to him I told you so. He also believed in me, like he had never believed in his mother. Prior to my affair his heart was open and warm to me. I had a conversation yesterday with my husband about the affair, and he asked why did you do it Hitch? Do you know what, I still don't know to this day, why I did. How rubbish is that. More so as we move into recovery. I can't give a single reason why I did it, however foggy that reason may be. Is this normal? I just thought that I couldn't get what I needed from my husband, I didn't know how to ask or show him what I needed. another big learning thing, if I show my Husband love and respect then I will receive it back.



Do you know my biggest mistake before affair was thinking my H was a mind reader? How ridiculous. I thought that communicating about my needs, desires, upsets ect was NAGGING or trying to change him. I so lacked the tools to have a good relationship or marriage I am surprised I made it that far.



Yes I agree wholeheartedly. I am the perfect person to help him do this. I want to help him do this. He has taught me so many things in many ways and maybe its time for me to give to him. Sometimes I see the hurt in his eyes and it is awful I just enjoy making him feel better without being a doormat ofcourse, carrot and stick you know!! I believe he will embrace the marriage, like Jessitaylor said he is coming round he just needs time. Oh my what a mess I made. I am communicating with him so much better, calmly, in control and then changing the subject afterwards so he doesn't feel like I am on his case. It is amazing though, he actually does take it in! I told him yesterday I find it difficult to communicate with him. I am so much more honest about how I feel. for example the fertility issue, i would have never mentioned it to him before, why for heavens sake not? I think I just tried to deal with it on my own, I wasn't sure he could help or comfort me.

"Sometimes I see the hurt in his eyes and it is awful I just enjoy making him feel better without being a doormat ofcourse, carrot and stick you know!!"

Hitch, that is the answer, you hurt him really bad, but it does not seem you are willing to try to overcomne that for both you and him. You seem to hesitate between wanting to get rid of him and wanting him to try to reconcile. If you Do see the hurt in his eyes you would do better.

I am not an expert Hitch, but you have been vascilating too long now, despite advice from JL and others. I have been married for 41+ years now, even tho she is in a nursing home now, and I sort of doubt if you will reach that longevity. We had two beautiful children, and yes later in her biological life, because we both wanted to. They are in their 20's now. Age 35 is not old...it isn't young... but you can still realize that if You and He want to for sake of your union. If you want that, then you have to take action.

I know you have posted on here for quite awhile, but you two need to stop dancing around each other now, despite MB advice, and simply realize what you want and go for it. It is no less simple than that.

Good Luck,

Tom

Tom

I just don't think he will ever be able to forgive me for this, it has been 6 months and he still has not agreed verbally to recommit although his actions speak differently (spending time with me, making small loving gestures).

We can do this, I want to do this. I just need to hear it from him.

Hi Hitch,

Am looking in here from time to time, and wow do you know what! I know I suggest this stuff on here ocasinally, I think you could be a great help to igrip and a few other BS's despite your pain. Eash to his/her own, but these guys seem so hurt and an honest person like you may be able to help. It is just my opinion, but sometimes sharing can help.

Well, I sort of understand from am guy's point of view. But, it is his choice. The thing that would affect me now if I was in your situation is you leaving. That would shock, and make me think, and try to decide. Ya know Hitch, the thing is that some guys cannot get over their ego, pride, selfishness until they are put to the wall. This is just life. You have got to realize that there are so many hundereds of people out there who have been in this situation, and I totally believe that most of them have resolved their marriages, and without publication.

You two have a unique situation that most in our society do not have - both of you have had an affair, and both of you are hurt. I am sure you are both good people. But one of you, and that is probably you, is going to have to make the supreme sacrifice to at least try. If after a few weeks of not working, shut him out,

Just my advice from a codger, and I do wish you well, but good god Hitch, stand up for you And him. You will never ever have this marriage again, if you value it, and it it fails.

Just a good luck hug.

Yom

Hitch,

He will forgive you IF YOU EVER TELL HIM THE TRUTH.

Where have you lied? You have lied by omission for sure so let's address this.

You know he protected you and defended you against his mother, and yet you don't tell him how much you appreciate what he did.

You know he expects you to act like his mother and yet you don't tell him what you have learned.

You know you love being around him and yet you don't tell him these things.

You know you failed to ask for what you needed so you went to another man, and YET you still don't ask for what you need from him and seek to find out what he needs from you.

You know that you have hurt him and betrayed his trust and yet you don't go to him and tell him that all you ask of him is for him to watch your actions and you will prove it to him. You KNOW he is an actions guy and yet you focus on his words and not his actions.

You KNOW you want forgiveness and yet you have not forgiven him for his affair and certainly not told him so. You are expecting him to think and act like you and you know he is not a mind reader and YET you lie to yourself and expect him to be like you.

You KNOW you need different behavior from him and yet you won't tell him the behavior you need.

Finally, you know you have his heart and yet you will not admit it and therefore you don't care for his heart as you should. He needs to know you know this, and he needs to hear and see you protect him, love, him and respect him. He needs to know you need the same.

You know what you have learned from your affair and yet you have not told him what you have learned.

You you deserve punishment for your affair but you pray for forgiveness by a kind and good man.

Hitch, it is time to stop lying to yourself and your H and start to really tell him the things you post here.

Think about it. You hold his heart in your hand are you going to nuture it or throw it on the ground?

JL